[Mage] Mobility and L90 Talents - 2

90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
11/08/2012 05:49 AMPosted by Ryegeleye
It's obvious they didn't test it. Ghostcrawler replied to one of my tweets about the proposed Invocation change. I asked him if he knew how much mana we consumed over a 2 minute period, and how much mana a gem charge restored. It was obvious he had no idea because his reply was that "mages weren't using evocation at all, they stay at 100% just with gem."


I'm honestly baffled that he'd even bother to give a response like that. In what sense were Mages not using evocation when it DIDN'T EVEN TOUCH THE PTR ONCE? If Dailies/5 mans, oh no, so OP for dailies and heroic dungeons that no one cares about. If PvP, then that's an issue that can be tweaked. If Raiding, then he's flat out lying because I watch my mana sometimes when I got a lengthy period of time w/o reapplying Invocation.

11/08/2012 11:34 AMPosted by Takius
the lack of blue posts in any mage 90 tier discussion anywhere on the forums (there are tonnes now) is very disheartening


There's tons? Please post me at least 2.
Reply Quote
100 Human Mage
15060
11/08/2012 01:04 PMPosted by Pewpewblast
There's tons? Please post me at least 2.

He was saying there's tons of discussion about the talents from normal posters, but comments on them from a blue.
Reply Quote
100 Pandaren Mage
12000
11/08/2012 05:49 AMPosted by Ryegeleye
It's obvious they didn't test it. Ghostcrawler replied to one of my tweets about the proposed Invocation change. I asked him if he knew how much mana we consumed over a 2 minute period, and how much mana a gem charge restored. It was obvious he had no idea because his reply was that "mages weren't using evocation at all, they stay at 100% just with gem


Is it possible he was talking about Arcane? I'm not sure, but I think Arcane can maintain a mana-neutral rotation. The dps might be lower, but maybe Mastery + 25% more damage make up for it.
Reply Quote
11/08/2012 07:47 PMPosted by Winnrie
Is it possible he was talking about Arcane? I'm not sure, but I think Arcane can maintain a mana-neutral rotation. The dps might be lower, but maybe Mastery + 25% more damage make up for it.

Arcane uses far more mana than the other specs. It's impossible to do viable DPS while staying mana neutral with the 50% mana regen of Invocation.
Reply Quote
90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
Is it possible he was talking about Arcane? I'm not sure, but I think Arcane can maintain a mana-neutral rotation. The dps might be lower, but maybe Mastery + 25% more damage make up for it.

Arcane uses far more mana than the other specs. It's impossible to do viable DPS while staying mana neutral with the 50% mana regen of Invocation.


Mana is essentially the meta in the Arcane playstyle. If it's hard enough for Fire/Frost to be Mana Neutral as Invocation (which it is unless you're using Scorch as your primary spell), it's impossible for Arcane.

GC didn't bother to test it and is simply assuming this to be the case. Really infuriating.
Edited by Pewpewblast on 11/9/2012 4:31 AM PST
Reply Quote
100 Human Mage
15060
I think with that comment he was speaking about PVP, specifically for fire. Scorch is only a 300 mana cost spell.
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Mage
20385
11/08/2012 01:04 PMPosted by Pewpewblast
I'm honestly baffled that he'd even bother to give a response like that. In what sense were Mages not using evocation when it DIDN'T EVEN TOUCH THE PTR ONCE? If Dailies/5 mans, oh no, so OP for dailies and heroic dungeons that no one cares about. If PvP, then that's an issue that can be tweaked. If Raiding, then he's flat out lying because I watch my mana sometimes when I got a lengthy period of time w/o reapplying Invocation.


You can see the entire conversation in this link. https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/status/265653016378617857

He made two tweets on the subject, once to Polarthief and then I made a (slightly snarky) comment asking about mana consumption and he replied to that. They are pasted below.

They weren't. They just used Mana gems.


With the change, mages didn't use Evoc at all. They sat at full mana with gems. It was a bad change.
Reply Quote
90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
11/09/2012 10:12 AMPosted by Ryegeleye
He made two tweets on the subject, once to Polarthief


Oh wow, I can't believe he actually tweeted to my jerkish comment after ignoring all of my other (nicer) tweets to him (and trust me, I sent him at least 20 tweets, all of them just coming from a concerned Mage before I was like "Screw it. He's been a jerk this whole time to me, and he won't reply on the issue at ALL, so time to be a jerk back"

11/09/2012 05:41 AMPosted by Mumrit
I think with that comment he was speaking about PVP, specifically for fire. Scorch is only a 300 mana cost spell.


So... Bump the cost of Scorch?

It honestly wouldn't hurt PvE at all to do that.
Edited by Pewpewblast on 11/9/2012 2:05 PM PST
Reply Quote
100 Human Mage
15060
So... Bump the cost of Scorch?

It honestly wouldn't hurt PvE at all to do that.

Very much agreed.
Reply Quote
90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
So... Bump the cost of Scorch?

It honestly wouldn't hurt PvE at all to do that.

Very much agreed.


I mean Mana isn't an issue in PvE (unless you don't evocate at all). Making Scorch cost as much mana (or even more) as the primary spell it's intended to replace (Fireball/Frostbolt) would make Mages use Invocation (at least the instant) for some Mana back in PvP, while not changing PvE at all because people who use it in PvE only use it for a limited time. It's not intended to be used for an entire fight, just when you're moving. You're going to Invocate anyways.
Reply Quote
90 Human Mage
IQ
8250
I wish he/they/you wouldnt use the word "mage" as all encompassing when talking about level 90 talents or mana in general, because really theres the "mage"(fire and Frost), and then theres an entirely different class called Arcane. Whatever QoL issues Fire and Frost have with the 90 talents are magnified 10 fold for arcane. Poor uptime is not an option for arcane, you either have great uptime or you slice your damage by 30% for poor uptime.
Reply Quote
90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
11/09/2012 02:44 PMPosted by Batar
I wish he/they/you wouldnt use the word "mage" as all encompassing when talking about level 90 talents or mana in general, because really theres the "mage"(fire and Frost), and then theres an entirely different class called Arcane. Whatever QoL issues Fire and Frost have with the 90 talents are magnified 10 fold for arcane. Poor uptime is not an option for arcane, you either have great uptime or you slice your damage by 30% for poor uptime.


Arcane atm is in a whole new class because its damage is nowhere close to that of Frost and Fire. Think back to when Frost was unviable to PvE (excluding Vanilla). That's where Arcane is now, except it's unviable to PvP too.

Arcane needs a ton of fixes atm, much more than just L90 talents.

Also, a change to Scorch's mana would barely affect Arcane at all unless you're overusing Scorch for some wild reason.
Edited by Pewpewblast on 11/9/2012 5:13 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Priest
9520
Why don't you call me when your level 90 talents suck, in addition to other problems.

Right now, you're doing pretty well in the scheme of things.


What's these even supposed to mean? This is not a performance thread. This is a qol/fun thread.

Here, how about this: Shamans have 3 completely unique specs that have completely different playstyles. Mages have 3 very similar specs with very similar rotations. Shamans have a second role they can fill. Mages do not. Shamans have raid utility beyond lust. Mages do not.

There are plenty of places where shamans stomp mages in terms of play. Performance can be tweaked. Design is harder to fix, and right mage have poor pve identity, clunky and unfun mechanics, zero raid utility outside of lust and ai, and a backward talent tier.

If I hadn't swapped to my priest, I would have swapped to my shaman.

Oh right and on a performance note, ele is a solid spec with great movement capabilities, and enh is consistently one of the top dps specs at the moment. If you take all parses into account, it performs better than all three mage specs on the majority of fights.

And your T90 talents are not that bad compared to mages. Some are set it and forget it. Elemental blast is the only one that can compare, and even that isn't that bad. None of them are complete movement destroyers, that's for damned sure.
Reply Quote
90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
Why don't you call me when your level 90 talents suck, in addition to other problems.

Right now, you're doing pretty well in the scheme of things.


11/09/2012 05:46 PMPosted by Terrortician
What's these even supposed to mean? This is not a performance thread. This is a qol/fun thread.


Yes, I'm well aware Shamans are suffering performance wise, but AFAIK, Shamans are quite fun atm. Mages are horribly clunky and boring, despite doing some great DPS.

If I could class change my Mage, I'd do it in a heart-beat to any other ranged, but I don't because not only is Class Changing not available (nor will it EVER be), but I don't wish to reroll. I love this character and he has been my main since 2.4.3.

Also, why are you bothering to come into this post if this topic doesn't pertain to you?
Edited by Pewpewblast on 11/9/2012 7:16 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
11/09/2012 05:46 PMPosted by Terrortician
There are plenty of places where shamans stomp mages in terms of play. Performance can be tweaked. Design is harder to fix, and right mage have poor pve identity, clunky and unfun mechanics, zero raid utility outside of lust and ai, and a backward talent tier.


Exactly. Shamans own Mages in raid/group utility, buffs (as they bring the rare Spell Haste and the uncommon Mastery while Mages bring two of the most common ones [one of which Shamans bring too), can fill another role: Healer, can heal as DPS, absolutely stomps our AoE DPS (unless we're Frost) and have fun L90 talents that don't drastically restrict your playstyle.

While Mages (Fire mostly and good Frost players) bring amazing Single Target DPS (and Frost brings great short-term AoE), our raid-utility, support roles, and every other aspect is worse than Shamans, and almost any other caster for that matter. We're the only caster w/o a movement speed increase (Improved Blink was removed during Beta; no one would be dumb enough to choose Blazing Speed over IB/TS), ZERO utility/raid cooldowns besides Time Warp (which Shamans/BM Hunters can bring anyways) ONLY spellcaster to have zero healing to allies (Warlocks bring lockrocks, all other spellcasters can heal in some form and even Monks, Rets, and IIRC DKs can and they're MELEE), and have by far the worst/clunkiest set of L90 abilities.

So yeah, on fights where DPS is the only thing that matters, we're pretty good. However, the huge lack of raid-wide utility, heals, buffs, and other things that make up a good comp are completely lost. DPS is not the end all thing that matters, and we're not even doing the best atm! (Ignore sims because they're very rarely correct. Look up WoL and Raidbots. We're by no means #1) On top of having no utility for our raids, we're now further restricted from doing the only thing we have going for us, and you (Thundah) decide to tell me not to bother making a post? Just wow dude.
Reply Quote
Doing LFR on my elemental shaman is such a blast. I'm pretty sure Bliz is intentionally keeping their DPS low so that all the Mages who hate the level 90 talents don't reroll. Though it didn't stop me!
Reply Quote
11/10/2012 05:59 AMPosted by Sattyn
Doing LFR on my elemental shaman is such a blast. I'm pretty sure Bliz is intentionally keeping their DPS low so that all the Mages who hate the level 90 talents don't reroll. Though it didn't stop me!


So...they reroll locks or priests? Those are the alternatives I'm considering right now, anyways.
Reply Quote
11/10/2012 06:48 AMPosted by Deerde
So...they reroll locks or priests? Those are the alternatives I'm considering right now, anyways.

I've got both at 90 atm, but the Elemental is the most exciting by far. I'm not a big fan of the Spriest's DoTs and the ramp-up on destro/demo gets old pretty fast.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]