Rogue presence in arena is laughable at best.

90 Night Elf Rogue
13025
more like:

prep: extremely situational

step: only generally useful mobility

Burst of speed: Cheese mage battles
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85 Blood Elf Warrior
11235
i call this some well deserved karma from rogues in S11 with Vial

have fun
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11/19/2012 02:37 PMPosted by Guruthos
One thing I forgot to mention, related to energy recovery mechanics: Something that hurts Sub's burst it that you need to keep up a bleed(20% damage) and refresh slice and dice for energy. This means we are using 3 total finishing moves, not counting occasional recuperate, costing more energy,combo points, and global cool-downs. This while assassination spec gets free resets of slice and dice through Cut to the chase. Yes sub ends up getting good energy regeneration and extra combo points from Premeditation and honor among thieves(situational and benefits less from smaller teams[2v2]), but the fact that all those global CDs add up and cause slow ramp up time to burst can easily mean a loss due to you getting killed/CC or your target getting healed before you can get your full burst.


No, Sub's in a better position.

It's not just that SnD lasts longer than Garrote/Rupture (max 34s v. 24s), that SnD is an undispellable self-buff (no target or melee range required), that SnD doesn't require a poison on target (Drops in 8-15s, dispellable), that bubbles don't stop ER from proccing, that SnD is, yes, proccable from free ranged combo points generated by HaT and Premed, or that SnD provides more stable energy regen. /pant /pant /pant

It's really the fact that Mut juggles just as many.

OK, Sub has to juggle SnD, Rupture, and Recuperate.

Mut has to juggle SnD (ok, it can be reset, sometimes), Rupture, Recuperate, and Envenom.

Sub can juggle in a 5cp Kidney Shot to set up a kill, or can throw in a glyphed CS to generate combo points ... but unlike Envenom, Eviscerate is a combo point DUMP. Dance openers generate combo points and Eviscerate is the natural result.

Mut on the other hand can't set up with a KS, because it needs those combo points for Envenom. Sorry. Even then, it has to build combo points through Mutilate/Dispatch, a more damage/energy expensive proposition than "Spambush."

So relax friend, Sub is harder than it was in Cata, but it's still a hair or two above Mut (at least Mut isn't stacking DP now, that's a plus). If you're still having problems though, don't worry about offensive pressure as Sub outside of Dance. Go the early-Cata route and CC.

For Dance, get your Rupture and SnD up and glyph Cheap Shot for your Dance setup. Alternately, get SnD up and set up with Kidney as usual, and throw a Garrote in your Dance. Rogues aren't doing hot right now due to mobility/survivability/lack-of-CC-counters, but at least that should help your burst.
Edited by Madcapmcgee on 11/20/2012 1:06 AM PST
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100 Human Rogue
7980
i call this some well deserved karma from rogues in S11 with Vial

have fun


Because karma had anything to do with blizzard nerfing virtually every aspect and corner of our class into the ground.
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90 Undead Rogue
4395
Do you remember when rogues didnt have cloak of shadows, we where the easiest most kitable class in the game, do you remember when they nerfed us continually every patch it seemed?

DO YOU remember when they nerfed kick, (they took the dmg off of it) only to now have a slight reduction in the cooldown. I remember the funny good old times of punting gnomes near death, that last kick to win was allways hiliarious to me.

I remember in vanilla how rogues had to actually use their brains before blowing cooldowns, useing things like crippling poisons to kite warriors so you could stealth then attack again, kiteing other rogues so you could stealth, and working down mages smartly useing your utilities at the right time. I remember when nothing would take off a hunters mark, and a hunter used to be able to mark you from a very far distance away, I remember when a hunters mark got put on you or any dot for that matter, it meant that you where dead, if you couldnt get away to heal somehow.

I played since vanilla, and the stuff I see nowdays does not surprise me, blizzard has been pulling shananigans like this with the class as long as I can remember.

All I am saying is, the pain did not start with mist of pandaria, it started a very long time ago, in a land far far away.....

Since they changed our talent tree's up I was wondering how things would play out, I dont understand why shadow step is not a trainable talent now days, its imperative to a rogues mobility, and about our lvl 90 talents..... what the heck is shuriken toss? and anticipation.... a baby could have thought about better talents then those, the only real viable one is versatility, great for pve and pvp.

"We need to voice our complaints more productivly not practise subterfuge over other classes"
Edited by Truculent on 11/20/2012 9:35 AM PST
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Thanks for pointing this out about sub Madcap, hard to see all angles outside of discussion.

On a different note, those saying prep is only good for an extra gap closer: What about the extra damage mitigation from extra cloak, vanish, evasion and dismantle? I admit situational and more useful against melee/hunter (cloak short duration makes it a weak defense). But then again other than some mages(one class) I don't have a terrible time with casters.
Edited by Guruthos on 11/20/2012 3:23 PM PST
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97 Dwarf Hunter
17020
i call this some well deserved karma from rogues in S11 with Vial

have fun


Because karma had anything to do with blizzard nerfing virtually every aspect and corner of our class into the ground.

At least you already weren't like that, like some classes I can think of.
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90 Troll Monk
9120
Woohoo, a whole 2% in 3v3!! racking in the rep
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90 Undead Mage
4130


WHAT THE !@#$ ARE THOSE GODDAMMNED ROGUES DOING WITH 2%

Shoe is simply on the other foot now. Last season warrriors had a low respresentation and rogues had very decent, if not very high representation. It's all cyclical


It isn't cyclical. This big of a change in one season is embarrassing.

Warriors change wasn't even near this after the s9 nerfs. In fact warriors stayed good in s9 and were still great in s10.

Rogues were only slightly op last season. The big problem was pve gear. Legendaries and Vial of Shadows


Blah blah blah. They don't give a !@#$. Rogues could be getting 1 shotted by lvl 2 critters and they wouldn't move a muscle.

(Supposedly) the release candidate for 5.1 just came out and the only real change to rogues at all is Blind being at 1:30 seconds.


You're the only class in WoW history to get your own legendary. Stop crying.


You must be some kind a genius. Lets all just stop crying about our 2% arena representation because our class got legendarys last xpac. LOL
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90 Undead Mage
4130
I like how Mages stay at 8-10%, middle of the pack, and people call us sooooooo OP.

You'd think we'd be higher up because we're soooooooooooooo OP.


Mages are like the red headed step child of QQing. Blast wave, mana shield, and cone freeze were removed when mop hit(Along with the no barrier cold snap nerf) Now barriers getting nerfed by 25%. Mage and rogue are my two favorite classes and they are being nerfed to the ground.
Edited by Abraçadaver on 11/21/2012 1:41 AM PST
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100 Human Rogue
7980
I like how Mages stay at 8-10%, middle of the pack, and people call us sooooooo OP.

You'd think we'd be higher up because we're soooooooooooooo OP.


Mages are like the red headed step child of QQing. Blast wave, mana shield, and cone freeze were removed when mop hit(Along with the no barrier cold snap nerf) Now barriers getting nerfed by 25%. Mage and rogue are my two favorite classes and they are being nerfed to the ground.


*sadface*

I like it when positioning, cooldowns, forethought, and coordination matter.

Doesn't seem like that's where blizzard wants to go.
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97 Dwarf Hunter
17020
11/21/2012 01:39 AMPosted by Abraçadaver
Mage and rogue are my two favorite classes and they are being nerfed to the ground.

Mages will always be fine, if not overpowered. Trust me.
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100 Human Rogue
7980
11/21/2012 05:24 PMPosted by Spinnerdh
Mage and rogue are my two favorite classes and they are being nerfed to the ground.

Mages will always be fine, if not overpowered. Trust me.


How about. Every class will be complex enough to play that slight variations in balance will never matter.

Every class will always be more or less balanced if they are willing to itemize differently to accommodate.

I want to hear something like that.
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100 Human Rogue
7980
Rogues don't need much.

A small mobility increase or cc reduction to rogues and some more passive survivability would fix them.

I would love to see feint disappear.
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