Scrapped Invocation Change

90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
While this is related to the "Mobility and L90 Talents" thread, I felt it should be a bit separate from the entire issue.

I would like to ask the devs to please reimplement this change in the next build. After 40s, I'm hurting on Mana, and the only thing this changes is that it chooses how long/how often we wish to evocate.

If after 20s I have a chance to evocate (even if I'm only missing 30% mana), I'll take it. For instance, Elegon Phase 1 to 2 transition, I'd top off my mana before the orbs spawn, even if I'm not at low mana/low duration.

The change to invocation would simply allow players to have a choice (which MoP was originally about, remember? Choices?) when to evocate. If you want to do it when you have a chance (could be sooner than 40s) then you can do so with the con of evocating more often and the pro of not only having the choice to choose when to evocate, but the duration of the channel would be shorter if you don't need as much mana.

While I haven't yet tested this with Fire (though I'd imagine it'd be close to the same numbers), Frost uses roughly 15% mana per 10 seconds with non-stop casting (This excludes Heroism/Bloodlust/Time Warp and Icy Veins [Unglyphed] moments).

Missing 15% after 10s
Missing 30% after 20s
Missing 45% after 30s
Missing 60% after 40s

Hmmm, notice something? Each tick (the initial cast included) gives 15% mana and 10 seconds. There's 4 ticks, and the buff itself lasts 40s. Evocation gives 60% mana, and 40s of the buff if fully cast (theoretically)

So... Someone please explain to me why Ghostcrawler suddenly decided we wouldn't be evocating enough with this change? He didn't even bother to TEST it before just saying "LOL NOPE!". What would be the harm in TESTING stuff on the TEST realm? If we aren't invocating enough, drop the mana penalty (for Fire/Frost only) to 75% from 50%. Make the duration shorter. Drop the damage boost a bit. Please just try it before assuming we wouldn't evocate.

Edit: Just re-tested as Fire; I had roughly 40-50% mana missing, so it would need a bit more of a nerf to Mana Regen. Make it roughly 30-40%, put Frost at 40-50%, and keep Arcane at 50%.
Edited by Pewpewblast on 11/1/2012 1:46 PM PDT
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60 Undead Rogue
8075
Scrapped change cause we might stop evocating. How they know us so well LOL freaking idiots.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
8050
The one about being 40s from max mana? They scrapped it? WTFBBQ!
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90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
11/01/2012 07:36 AMPosted by Metuo
Scrapped change cause we might stop evocating. How they know us so well LOL freaking idiots.


Except I evocate roughly every 40s not just because of the buff but because of mana as well. The fact that they didn't test it kinda makes me believe that GC has no idea how Mages work atm.

11/01/2012 08:07 AMPosted by Belisarious
The one about being 40s from max mana? They scrapped it? WTFBBQ!


Yup. GC pulled it at the last second. Someone asked (on his twitter) if it was implemented and he said that "we think Mages will stop evocating if we implement this, so we may not change it".
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90 Undead Mage
11870
As it has been pointed out by the theory crafters, Invocation is a fantastic talent for fights where vulnerability and invulnerability phases line up with the buff provided by Invocation. ie, a fight where every 40 seconds the boss takes additional damage, followed by periods where the boss cannot be damaged. Essentially, if the boss is immune every 40 seconds for at least 6 seconds, the talent is perfect.

In practice, nothing lines up with the 40 sec duration of the buff. So far, just in MSV, we have the following "issues" for some of the bosses:

H Feng - Adds don't spawn on a 40 second timer during shield phase. Since the adds must die before reaching the shield, you're hard pressed to say to your raid "sorry, need to evo for 5 seconds, please kill on" or "buff fell off, I'm doing 25% less damage to these guys. Thanks!" Nothing actually lines up well for Invocation in this fight.

Gara'jal (Either) - The duration of the buff from the spirit realm is 40 seconds. Nice that it lines up with Invocation. Not so great that nothing else does. Again, you're either in the spirit realm not doing anything for 5/30 seconds (cause killing those adds doesn't matter, right?) or you're tunneling the boss and not going into the spirit realm. The 20 seconds or so you do spend in the spirit realm is the real kicker. If you're trading off with another dps pair, then you go in (we'll say you evo as the totem dies), you spend 20 seconds laying waste to the adds, then you pop out with your shiny new 40 second buff. 5 seconds of which you're going to completely waste refreshing invocation. Yay?

Elegon - Want to kill sparks? Want to kill them effectively? They live for an average of 10 seconds (all of them are usually dead at 10). We add in Elegon's cast time for the next set (3 sec) and you get an average of 13 seconds for each wave. This means that even if you managed to line up an Evo that ended *just* as the first set spawns, that it will wear off before the 4th (and fastest moving set) is dead. If you're going for 5, at some point you're going to be ignoring the boss and the adds just to "keep up" while you evo.

Will - Titan gas pops, you're Invocation buff just fell off. "Sorry, I'll help finish off those adds in 5 seconds - don't mind me standing here getting beat on by that rage, I'll be fine"

With the change that got scrapped, here's what would change:

1) I wouldn't have to ask for a 10 second countdown on each pull. I don't get one incidentally. I spend the 30-50 seconds right before a pull casting evo every time its off CD hoping to "get lucky"
2) I can choose when to refresh my mana. The overall casting of evocation (time spent channeling) would not be vastly different from how it is now. If it is less, it is due to not being rooted in place for 5 seconds and having to cancel it early.
3) Mana gems would make it back on my bar. :O On an 8 minute fight, they would see about 4 uses, requiring the glyph that gives 10 charges. Ofc, this means I now have a choice in glyphs. Those 4 gems would net me exactly 1 evocation if I timed them perfectly by the way. Clearly OP. Saving a mage 1 evocation out of 11... a 10% increase *just* for using a spell I get at level 47 then never use (unless arcane).
4) During periods of upcoming burst, I can plan my buff better - I can evo quick to top off my mana after the 2nd set of adds on Elegon for example.
5) Dailies could actually be done with this talent! :O I have mentioned it before, but on a high pop server, you simply cannot do dailies with Invo or RoP. You don't have the time. If you take the time, someone else just tagged what you dropped your rune, or channeled up your evo for.

I am learning to effectively use Invocation for MSV. I will most likely be using it for most of HoF. This doesn't mean I like it. This doesn't mean I think its a great talent. It means that I find RoP non-viable (for how we do the fights) and IW to be too "maybe" in terms of buffs.

However, I can't choose something and just not use it for that tier. We're forced to use it.

I would like to see the proposed (then scrapped) invocation go the PTR - I'd like to see it tested. I'd like to be able to beat on a target dummy and see how ungodly OP it is suppsed to be. I mean I could really get behind taking evo off my bar. We're would never evo if the change went through, right?
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90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
11/01/2012 11:41 AMPosted by Howmanylichs
I would like to see the proposed (then scrapped) invocation go the PTR - I'd like to see it tested. I'd like to be able to beat on a target dummy and see how ungodly OP it is suppsed to be. I mean I could really get behind taking evo off my bar. We're would never evo if the change went through, right?


I think we all would. I honestly can't imagine why they would ever scrap it as it would have fixed almost every issue Invocation currently has. We get to choose when we want to refresh our duration/mana and all that does is fix QoL, which I guess ISN'T what Blizzard wants us to have :(
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90 Pandaren Mage
10300
11/01/2012 11:45 AMPosted by Pewpewblast
I think we all would. I honestly can't imagine why they would ever scrap it as it would have fixed almost every issue Invocation currently has. We get to choose when we want to refresh our duration/mana and all that does is fix QoL, which I guess ISN'T what Blizzard wants us to have :(


I imagine in Blizzard's mind, the talents are pretty balanced in terms of dps as it is now. With the changes to Invocation, it would make much more powerful, in that any mana sources would give you the buff, i.e. Arcane Torrent, Mana Gems. It would make the buff easier to maintain compared to live, and increase the uptime of Invocation.
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90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
11/01/2012 08:33 PMPosted by Winnrie
I think we all would. I honestly can't imagine why they would ever scrap it as it would have fixed almost every issue Invocation currently has. We get to choose when we want to refresh our duration/mana and all that does is fix QoL, which I guess ISN'T what Blizzard wants us to have :(


I imagine in Blizzard's mind, the talents are pretty balanced in terms of dps as it is now. With the changes to Invocation, it would make much more powerful, in that any mana sources would give you the buff, i.e. Arcane Torrent, Mana Gems. It would make the buff easier to maintain compared to live, and increase the uptime of Invocation.


So they can tweak it however they please around the increased uptime. Problem solved.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
12215
11/01/2012 10:45 PMPosted by Pewpewblast
So they can tweak it however they please around the increased uptime. Problem solved.

How about only giving you the buff indefinitely if you're full on mana while out of combat? As soon as you got into combat, it would start ticking down. Chalk it up to "the mage losing concentration while in combat" or something. Anything more drastic would require re-balancing the damage portion of the talent, and I'm lazy, so I'd rather not deal with mana gems and mana.
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90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
11/01/2012 11:16 PMPosted by Yukiatsuruko
So they can tweak it however they please around the increased uptime. Problem solved.

How about only giving you the buff indefinitely if you're full on mana while out of combat? As soon as you got into combat, it would start ticking down. Chalk it up to "the mage losing concentration while in combat" or something. Anything more drastic would require re-balancing the damage portion of the talent, and I'm lazy, so I'd rather not deal with mana gems and mana.


At the very least, I do expect this, as timing an Invocation pre-fight is just annoying for everyone else, not just the Mage, when you need a 6s countdown (10s for Fire so you can time a good ol' Pre-potted Pyroblast)
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90 Undead Mage
11870
“Mages might stop evocating”

Let's evaluate this, shall we?

In a perfect storm, a fire mage has 69.67%+ crit. With 3% crit suppression, this means that every last fire spell you cast will crit. This means you cast fireball, pyro, fireball, pyro until the boss is dead. This is the absolute lowest you can go in mps (mana per second) usage, unless you swap fireball out for scorch. At that point, you will never drop below 100% mana. Idk if this is a big concern, as scorch has a DPET of roughly 84% of fireball, which cascades into ignite and combustion... blah blah blah. Maybe at this level of crit scorch is viable?

Anywho, with 69.67%+ crit, and the above rotation (ignoring bombs, they have little effect on the end result being they cost 375 mps for their duration) you will burn 3200 mps. Base mana regen is 3000 mps. But its affected by haste! So are your cast times, and it becomes a wash – so doing these calcs at 0% haste is for more simplified math. If you take invocation, your base mana regen is cut in half, to 1500 mps.

So, perfect scenario, the mage is losing 1700 mps. This will oom you in 177 seconds. Any fight longer than that, and you will either have to evo, or eat a mana gem. Since the duration of the buff is only 40 seconds, let's see how much you would lose in that time:

1700 x 40 = 68,000 mana. Or, a measly 23% of your mana. A pittance! But remember, this requires you to crit every last spell you send at the boss. You would theoretically save the last 2 ticks of your evocation on each run through. You'd gain about 2 seconds per evo. Ofc, if you put all of that crit into haste, you'd get more than 2 seconds back... but I digress.

Now let's look at worst case scenario: A fire mage with 0% crit

All you can do is throw fireballs at a rate of 5333 mps. You're losing 3833 mps. You will oom in 79 seconds. In the 40 seconds of the buff, you're going to use 153,320 mana, or just over half. You'll have to evo anyways at the 40 second mark to refresh the buff. Even if you push it to the max, you're still using evo less than “acceptable” of once a minute.

Every fire mage in the game falls between those two examples.

As other have speculated (by stating it was a lie), “Mages will stop using evo” is just plain wrong. There is no reason to stop using it now. Making the changes that were scrapped wouldn't change any of this. You're still going to use mana at a loss – the scrapped change didn't change that. It would change the QoL of the talent. It would change the decisions made by the mage. It would provide the mage with some reward (lower evo channel in a little while) for getting spat on by boss rng, and it would allow the mage to start the fight at full power, something only certain mages who's groups / raids are accomdating are able to do now
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