WW Monks and the help we need

90 Undead Monk
11085
Blizz, this class spec has potential to be a lot of fun and viable in many different circumstances- unfortunately as of now it is falling short across the board.

PVE- As one of three (ret, shadow) classes that have no alternative dps spec, it is imperative that we are more well balanced and versatile than the other classes in the game. There is no resepeccing for us on certain fights to improve our damage, aoe, utility, etc.
As it stands our dps is near the bottom of all specs on many logging websites. http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/10H/100/14/30/avg/#7vvvv for instance, shows a realistic example of how classes are fairing in raids thus far. It isn't a problem to be low on dps (someone has to be) if you bring other things to the table. We don't. We have no bloodlust, no stormlash totem, no tranquility, no off tank ability, etc. On top of that we are nearly GCD locked already, and the expansion has only been out for a month. There is simply no true advantage to having a WW monk in your raid compared to other classes. We bring 0 cleave to multi target fights, and below average single target dps. This needs to be adressed immediately.
A simple fix to cleave would be to make fists of fury do full damage to 3 or less targets. It is already insanely hard to use, why not make it rewarding. While you're at is fix the haste bug that removes a tick, and make a glyph that removes the stun and allows movement.

PVP- Absolutely any experienced player can attest that WW monks are in a bad place in PVP. Again we bring nothing to the table that other classes dont do better. Our burst is non existant, our mobility against intelligent ranged is horrifying, and our utility is incredibly hard to use and results in small benefits. Fists of fury and leg sweep are prone to lag misses, our ranged root costs chi to use (if I'm not hitting you I have to chi to catch you), our biggest defensive cd, touch of karma, can be negated with bubbles and such and is melee range and costs chi. None of our defensives can be used while cc'd. I could go on, but I want to limit the QQ and just get feedback. I never make these kind of posts, but this class just needs help immediately.
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90 Pandaren Monk
3855
below average single target dps


Not even close to being true. There are a lot of bad monks out there that are raiding, and there aren't any good role models for people to look at right now.

EJ and other similar sites are full of some really bad information.
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82 Blood Elf Warlock
5510
11/12/2012 04:52 AMPosted by Kroxybear
below average single target dps


Not even close to being true. There are a lot of bad monks out there that are raiding, and there aren't any good role models for people to look at right now.

EJ and other similar sites are full of some really bad information.


Being haste capped before even BIS in the first tier is a bad sign. If EJ is wrong, raidbots is wrong and everyone else is wrong, who exactly is right?
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90 Pandaren Monk
10245

EJ is full of some really bad information.


BLAHHHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.


If EJ is wrong, raidbots is wrong and everyone else is wrong, who exactly is right?


Not this guy, obviously. Ohohoho.
Edited by Drayjin on 11/12/2012 10:53 AM PST
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90 Undead Monk
11085
If we are doing just fine dps wise, please feel free to show me logs from ANY fight that monks are near the top. You can't because there are none. That would be fine if we brought something else to the table. We dont.
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90 Draenei Shaman
4790
WW has lots of problems, primarily mechanical, but raw performance is fine now that HoF is open, right in the middle of the pack. WW ranked much lower in MSV alone. Less cleave/multidotting in HoF bosses, I'd say.

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Score/10N/all/14/30/default/
Edited by Slant on 11/12/2012 11:34 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Monk
4310
11/12/2012 04:52 AMPosted by Kroxybear
below average single target dps


Not even close to being true.


Yes it is. He said we are "below-average" and that is certainly true. I would even argue we are bottom third easily in terms of dps specs. Hunters, warlocks, mages, frost DK, shadow priest, warriors all out dps us. Name a dps spec we out perform on either fights like elegon (movement) or Feng (static)?

Otherwise, you need to do some better research yourself or actually experience it first hand. I rarely post (second post ever since vanilla beta) but I'm really tired of people saying we are "fine" and don't need DPS improvement (which is so obviously and dearly needed before we become extinct in the raid environment).
Edited by Merivel on 11/12/2012 2:02 PM PST
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90 Draenei Shaman
4790
11/12/2012 02:01 PMPosted by Merivel
I would even argue we are bottom third easily in terms of dps specs. Hunters, warlocks, mages, frost DK, shadow priest, warriors all out dps us. Name a dps spec we out perform on either fights like elegon (movement) or Feng (static)?

None of that stuff matters. All that matters is how the spec ranks overall, and overall WW is fine in both 10N and 25N.

Half of T14 is still locked, and we don't have enough heroic parses to come to real conclusions for the sections that are currently open, so that may change. We can only look at the data we have.

Like I said earlier, WW has plenty of real problems; FoF limiting mobility, mastery causing GCD locking, GCD locking in T14 gear, lack of raid utility, no cleave, no alternative L90 talents to Xuen, and L30 talents being useless when not solo immediately come to mind. Those are all real problems with how the spec plays, and its synergies in group and raid content with other specs.

Focus on those, not raw performance, because unlike 2 weeks ago, now that HoF is open, WW performance is perfectly fine.
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90 Undead Rogue
17350
11/12/2012 11:23 AMPosted by Slant
WW has lots of problems, primarily mechanical, but raw performance is fine now that HoF is open, right in the middle of the pack. WW ranked much lower in MSV alone. Less cleave/multidotting in HoF bosses, I'd say.

Thats an odd thing to say. In msv theres only really 2 cleave/multidot fights in hof theres 3
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90 Draenei Shaman
4790
Yeah I forgot garalon. There must be some other reason why affliction dropped so much and WW climbed. Maybe gear scaling?
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90 Pandaren Monk
0
single target dps is fine. I consistently rank, and I'm not a good player. We suffer from bad player syndrome, as the class is new. Learn how to use you defensive CDs to cheese mechanics and keep your uptime on the boss.

2 targets and I might as well not show up.
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90 Human Paladin
8590
PVP- Absolutely any experienced player can attest that WW monks are in a bad place in PVP. Again we bring nothing to the table that other classes dont do better. Our burst is non existant, our mobility against intelligent ranged is horrifying, and our utility is incredibly hard to use and results in small benefits. Fists of fury and leg sweep are prone to lag misses, our ranged root costs chi to use (if I'm not hitting you I have to chi to catch you), our biggest defensive cd, touch of karma, can be negated with bubbles and such and is melee range and costs chi. None of our defensives can be used while cc'd. I could go on, but I want to limit the QQ and just get feedback. I never make these kind of posts, but this class just needs help immediately.


Monk damage is not even close the the problem. Monks do great damage in PVE and PVP, the issue is simple.. They get kited endlessly.. Its just a little too easy to kite them.

The damage they can crank out when on target is amazing.

CC costing a resource????????? Dear lord no!!!! More like, all other classes need the same deal.. Guess what sir, rogues kidneyshot costs.............. combo points..

Energy / CP build ratio of the monk is far better than the rogue.. Jab gives 2 CP for each attack.. Your attacks hit harder than rogues do.

Monks have funky mobility and this IS the issue. The rest of the class while gimmicky is perty good. Sure some of the little details need some love, but other than the mobility they are perty good over all.

Self healing on monks is great.

Damage on monks is great.

Survivability is better than RET; IE: very good.

Mobility of monks......... its almost as bad as rogue mobility, and thats perty damn terrible. Why do you think rogue suck so bad right now??

Its not the damage thats for sure.. Mobility is the primary problem, and with the rogue its compounded by near zero survivability outside of CD's. The monk at least has self healing that is worth a damn.
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90 Undead Monk
11085

Monk damage is not even close the the problem. Monks do great damage in PVE and PVP... not the damage thats for sure.


What on earth are you even basing this on? Fairly decent sustained damage (what monks have) is not, and will never as valuable as burst damage in pvp. This is how you set up kills against any competent opponent. In addition, there is 0 evidence on any logging record that our PVE damage is competitive. Quit posting baseless nonsense.
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90 Draenei Shaman
4790
PvE damage is fine. Plenty of evidence, even in this thread.

I don't have an opinion on PvP.
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90 Undead Monk
11085

CC costing a resource????????? Dear lord no!!!! More like, all other classes need the same deal.. Guess what sir, rogues kidneyshot costs.............. combo points..
[/quote]

Our gap closer is not CC. This would be like giving shadow step a combo point cost. People would lose their minds.
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90 Undead Monk
11085
WW has lots of problems, primarily mechanical, but raw performance is fine now that HoF is open, right in the middle of the pack. WW ranked much lower in MSV alone. Less cleave/multidotting in HoF bosses, I'd say.

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Score/10N/all/14/30/default/


Surely you aren't ignorant enough to read that as we are "middle of the pack" WW IS OUR ONLY DPS SPEC. Based on the very chart you used, we are 8th out of 11 in DPS, making us near the bottom. Yet again, this would be ok if we brought unique buffs or utility, but we bring nothing at all except BELOW AVERAGE dps.
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90 Draenei Shaman
4790
Can you not count? That sounds hostile, but I don't know how else to account for your post.

From that same link, WW ranks #9 out of 19 total DPS specs with sufficient samples to be listed. But even more important than the rankings is the variance. You can see from the spec score itself that WW is right smack in the middle.
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90 Undead Monk
11085
Can you not count? That sounds hostile, but I don't know how else to account for your post.

From that same link, WW ranks #9 out of 19 total DPS specs with sufficient samples to be listed. But even more important than the rankings is the variance. You can see from the spec score itself that WW is right smack in the middle.


The specs below WW have other specs in that same class above us in dps except for 3 classes. WE CAN'T RESEPC TO ANOTHER DPS SPEC. How is this hard to understand?
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90 Undead Monk
11085
Moreover, there is not a single fight where as a class we rank in the top half. How is this a good thing for a class that only, only brings self dps and NO raid dps boosts, emergency heals, or temporary tank skills?
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