Sick of Blizz Lies about hearing feedback

90 Blood Elf Paladin
13160
I find this post rather... humorous. I myself have often wondered about the "We are not forcing content upon the players, so we are removing head enchants and making rep grinding a thing of the past- Only not really." It is one thing to mislead a friend or family member (not exactly nice, but no serious monetary consequence in many cases) as opposed to misleading millions of paying customers who were quite excited about not having to grind for those pesky enchantments and items. Now alas, other than LFR (haven't won anything since I hit the ilvl requirement 5 weeks ago, been using charms for the past 4) or raids (many guilds are not into raiding, yet players in said guild enjoy improving their gear) there is the option of grinding for reputation. Mounts I understand, pets and other vanity items, sure. Heck, even the gear I don't mind overly much. But... Recipes? How is grinding rep for a head enchant any different from grinding rep for say... a weapon enchant recipe? The only difference is that a recipe requires mats, which is even more work than the head enchant...

So... why did they remove head enchantments again?
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Community Manager
11/13/2012 10:58 AMPosted by Librily
When I read this, here's what I am understanding. The enchant on the gear is MORE IMPORTANT than the actual gear itself? So, enchant > gear?


Unfortunately, it seems that you did misinterpret what I wrote. No, the enchantments are not more important than the gear, but they do complement all the gear you'll ever get over the course of that expansion (which is what made those reps essential). In Cataclysm, and previously, you had to have those item enhancements because they would apply over any gear you ever got. In Mists, you can skip rep gear, and move on to better gear, and never miss the reputations you didn't earn in the long run. Not that I'm advocating skipping dailies - there are definitely reasons to do them; just not to the point of fatigue that some choose to. We loosened the cap, and the intention there was to give players some flexibility regarding how they approached them.

While better gear is always helpful, the rep gear is only compelling enough to be called "necessary" relatively early in the progression cycle - and, in truth, it's only "necessary" for the guilds that are competing on that level. On the other hand, it seems that a certain type of player is always running extra miles of one sort or another to be at the cutting edge of content in every expansion, and with every new raid release. I mean, is any tangible, useful reward we provide--regardless of venue--going to seem to be anything less than absolutely mandatory to such a player, unless it is purely cosmetic?

Finally, as Zarhym mentioned elsewhere. We are paying attention and want to do better in the future. We're not in a position to completely re-work the way players interact with dailies on-the-fly, right-this-second. That expectation is unrealistic. We are always interested in learning better ways to approach these design challenges and make fun and compelling content, though.
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11/13/2012 11:30 AMPosted by Daxxarri
You mean the one that just got a huge nerf? Yeah, they nerfed all the dmf cards.


No! Bad! Stop pointing to data-mined content as fact. The change that got picked up was actually an adjustment to Darkmoon Card trinkets for Challenge Mode stat scaling.


That's fairly rude and unbecoming of someone who is in the position you are in, Dax.

Treating people like an animal by saying, "No! Bad!" and then rubbing their nose in it for jumping the gun is definately not what you should have done. Rather, you should have POLITELY STATED the incorrectness of it and moved on.

In this case, both parties here made an error in judgment. Shame to both of you.
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90 Human Paladin
6815
Okay well now I'm getting angry. I post 2 threads. Thread one is a suggestion. It gets deleted in less than 2 minutes of being up.....

I then post a second thread about my confusion for Blizzard deleting my suggestion thread when they "care about customer feedback", and it's deleted in less than a minute..... Wtf?!

Gotta agree with the OP, this is horrible customer service, and a total lie about them enjoying customer feedback.
Edited by Christhemity on 11/13/2012 12:05 PM PST
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71 Undead Death Knight
1010
11/13/2012 11:13 AMPosted by Locuid
Coupling Living Metal WITH Trillium WITH Harmony is a bit much.


I understand this concern, truly. When I first saw the req's for some of my crafted things I nearly gave up crafting at all. Then I found something amazing.

1) My alch can transmute trillium all day long with no cool down.
Yes I know it takes a ton of ghost iron (10 per trillium 'mute) but ghost iron is easy to find, much easier than trillium.

2) With my alch 'muting trillium I can guarantee I can make 1 living steel per day. At least it resets at midnight.

3) I can grow motes for SoH with songbells. 16 motes = at least 1 SoH, on some days 2 with extra day one combining with extra from day two.

4) I'm self sufficient. I don't have to buy off the AH unless I really, really, want to (which 99% of the time I don't.) which to me makes it a win/win situation.

I know it doesn't make crafting an item really easy or fast but it beats the heck out of doing it the old way, IMO.
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90 Draenei Shaman
8210
11/13/2012 12:01 PMPosted by Çhampagne
How is grinding rep for a head enchant any different from grinding rep for say... a weapon enchant recipe?


The difference is that grinding rep for the head enchant was the only way to get the head enchant.

The weapon enchant recipe, you can always find an enchanter that did go through the work to get it, or through the AH to obtain the enchant.
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90 Draenei Shaman
8210
That's fairly rude and unbecoming of someone who is in the position you are in, Dax.

Treating people like an animal by saying, "No! Bad!" and then rubbing their nose in it for jumping the gun is definately not what you should have done. Rather, you should have POLITELY STATED the incorrectness of it and moved on.

In this case, both parties here made an error in judgment. Shame to both of you.


This is what's wrong with the world today. Overly sensitive, politically correct kids that can't take a joke. Even when their entire post is pure insults and vitrol hurled at the blue posters.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
UE
19100
While better gear is always helpful, the rep gear is only compelling enough to be called "necessary" relatively early in the progression cycle - and, in truth, it's only "necessary" for the guilds that are competing on that level. On the other hand, it seems that a certain type of player is always running extra miles of one sort or another to be at the cutting edge of content in every expansion, and with every new raid release. I mean, is any tangible, useful reward we provide--regardless of venue--going to seem to be anything less than absolutely mandatory to such a player, unless it is purely cosmetic?
That is the kind of post I want to see more of. I hope people read it.
Edited by Snow on 11/13/2012 12:08 PM PST
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90 Gnome Rogue
13970


No! Bad! Stop pointing to data-mined content as fact. The change that got picked up was actually an adjustment to Darkmoon Card trinkets for Challenge Mode stat scaling.


That's fairly rude and unbecoming of someone who is in the position you are in, Dax.

Treating people like an animal by saying, "No! Bad!" and then rubbing their nose in it for jumping the gun is definately not what you should have done. Rather, you should have POLITELY STATED the incorrectness of it and moved on.

In this case, both parties here made an error in judgment. Shame to both of you.


Meh, the developers are human and take loads of craps from the users here every day. I have no problem at all with them showing their emotions when they're taking the time to address the questions and concerns that we have.

The primary thing that frustrates me is when they tell us (even indirectly) that the opinions of their paying customers are less important than the opinions of the bean counters who run the game.
Edited by Jawaka on 11/13/2012 12:08 PM PST
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90 Tauren Druid
19490
11/13/2012 12:04 PMPosted by Seebach


No! Bad! Stop pointing to data-mined content as fact. The change that got picked up was actually an adjustment to Darkmoon Card trinkets for Challenge Mode stat scaling.


That's fairly rude and unbecoming of someone who is in the position you are in, Dax.

Treating people like an animal by saying, "No! Bad!" and then rubbing their nose in it for jumping the gun is definately not what you should have done. Rather, you should have POLITELY STATED the incorrectness of it and moved on.

In this case, both parties here made an error in judgment. Shame to both of you.


You go Daxxarri, you scold dem trolls! Honestly with all the crap CMs put up with from the people on these forums, I'm proud to see them show a little attitude, frankly we deserve it. This idea of treating paying customers with kid gloves in America sickens me, when I was a support rep at a company I won't mention (they're a Fortune 100 company) I frequently would tell users candidly when they made a stupid mistake that was going to cost them money, they didn't like to hear it but I can tell you it saved their time and mine rather than skirting around the topic of their mistake.

It may be "condescending" the way he said it, but honestly, if you get offended by that, either don't read the forums or unbunch your knickers because a lot worse is said around here.
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90 Worgen Hunter
13140
Recent American political issues show exactly what's wrong here as well.
Everyone thinks only their opinion matters, and will at the cost of anyone and anything else push that out as fact. Only negativity will be posted, seen on tv, and so on. When it comes down to it, popular vote wasn't what was predicted based on all the negativity. Meaning, regardless of who won there... the crap load of negativity obviously wasn't the best indicator of how the majority felt. Only extremes seem to state opinions, it's how things work. Blizzard gets positive feedback as well, and I am sure not nearly as much as they get negative... however that's always going to be the case no matter how popular something is.

Also people lay the hell off the CMS. Dax DID NOTHING WRONG. Jesus, it is bad people take what they have no idea about as fact. If it were me I would have been thinking "you're a (insert bad word here) idiot" and it would have been very hard to be as extremely polite as he was.
Edited by Bluêmoon on 11/13/2012 12:13 PM PST
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90 Draenei Paladin
8255


No! Bad! Stop pointing to data-mined content as fact. The change that got picked up was actually an adjustment to Darkmoon Card trinkets for Challenge Mode stat scaling.


That's fairly rude and unbecoming of someone who is in the position you are in, Dax.

Treating people like an animal by saying, "No! Bad!" and then rubbing their nose in it for jumping the gun is definately not what you should have done. Rather, you should have POLITELY STATED the incorrectness of it and moved on.

In this case, both parties here made an error in judgment. Shame to both of you.


Stop being such a care-bear you big baby. I'd rather the blues show some humor in their post than be autonomous in their response. Especially when you consider that it's USEFUL information that's being stated.
Edited by Eviloven on 11/13/2012 12:13 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10370
While better gear is always helpful, the rep gear is only compelling enough to be called "necessary" relatively early in the progression cycle - and, in truth, it's only "necessary" for the guilds that are competing on that level.


Hah, sorry, I laughed when I read this. I actually killed and got a piece of loot off of a heroic boss before I was able to spend valor points. Is that what you mean by "early"? That we're killing heroic bosses and still don't have the required reputation for some of the VP purchases (don't misunderstand me, I'm close).

I just hope Blizzard realizes their mistake: VP or reputation requirement, not both.
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Community Manager
That's fairly rude and unbecoming of someone who is in the position you are in, Dax.

Treating people like an animal by saying, "No! Bad!" and then rubbing their nose in it for jumping the gun is definately not what you should have done. Rather, you should have POLITELY STATED the incorrectness of it and moved on.

In this case, both parties here made an error in judgment. Shame to both of you.


It was a tongue in cheek post, though I've re-read it and I still don't find it particularly offensive. Agree to disagree?

This is an interesting example of dissonance in the style of communication that the community wants though. There's a segment of the community that would prefer nothing but perfectly polite, all-the-sharp-edges-grinded-off kind of customer service speak. Meanwhile, there were many players in this thread requesting 'bluntness'--some specifically to the point of rudeness. I think I usually tend somewhere in the middle, with a touch of humor thrown in now and then.
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90 Troll Hunter
14260
11/13/2012 12:03 PMPosted by Daxxarri
I mean, is any tangible, useful reward we provide--regardless of venue--going to seem to be anything less than absolutely mandatory to such a player, unless it is purely cosmetic?


Well, that's kind of the point. If it's going to affect raiders then why not just keep it raid/dungeon related? I saw very few complaints about gearing in Cataclysm. I mean, people didn't like running dungeons all the time necessarily but at least that's vaguely related. Dailies (and especially done this way where it can take upwards of an hour to do them every day) are not the way to open up really helpful raid gear. If you want to reward dailies and rep grinds then keep it at cosmetic and vanity items. When you add great gear to it (some of the pieces are even BiS for at least the first three raids!) on top of the charm system you make the incentive to do it much too great, to the point where it feels forced on you lest you handicap yourself (whether that's small or large is up for debate to some people, but it's a handicap all the same). So, as I said earlier, why not keep it tied to dungeons? Dungeons reward VP which you can use to choose which piece you'd like to get. Sure, you have to grind dungeons a bit but on the whole those will likely require less of or similar a time commitment while keeping people doing the same type of content.
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90 Undead Warlock
12060
That's fairly rude and unbecoming of someone who is in the position you are in, Dax.

Treating people like an animal by saying, "No! Bad!" and then rubbing their nose in it for jumping the gun is definately not what you should have done. Rather, you should have POLITELY STATED the incorrectness of it and moved on.

In this case, both parties here made an error in judgment. Shame to both of you.


It was a tongue in cheek post, though I've re-read it and I still don't find it particularly offensive. Agree to disagree?

This is an interesting example of dissonance in the style of communication that the community wants though. There's a segment of the community that would prefer nothing but perfectly polite, all-the-sharp-edges-grinded-off kind of customer service speak. Meanwhile, there were many players in this thread requesting 'bluntness'--some specifically to the point of rudeness. I think I usually tend somewhere in the middle, with a touch of humor thrown in now and then.


That is one thing I love about humanity, the fact that getting more 5 people to agree on anything is next to impossible.
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90 Orc Hunter
10795
11/13/2012 11:55 AMPosted by Ryeann
The current dailies might feel that mandatory to some particularly progression focused players, but it is entirely possible to skip them, and the gear they provide, pretty much entirely and still arrive at the same level of character potency.


This is disingenuous at best.

I won't do dailies. I love instances (heroics and LFR). I'd love to get into the two new LFR instances that have come out recently, but my ilvl isn't high enough (2 points short).

I've got every slot filled with either dungeon drops, the two crafted items, a halloween ring, the two low hanging VP items (neck from Klaxxi and I knuckled under for Golden Lotus honored for the ring and patterns) and a single drop from LFR.

The only way I can improve my ilvl at this point is to cross my fingers and run LFR once a week.

So I'll spend 2 hours tonight having fun - and if I don't get any drops I have no other means to progress my character until next week.


you could raid..
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I have one question: Where's the proof?

I'm not interested in citing the entire massive list directly, but World of Warcraft has a long history of adjustments in response to player feedback.


Oh please.

That stampede bug you guys so conveniently stumbled upon was reported by players back in Beta.

Issues with monk healing was reported in Beta.

Insane Warrior burst potential was reported in beta.

Rogue mobility issues were reported in Beta.

You crowd had all that time to look into these things and make changes but didn't, and are just now looking at this crap and going "Oh hmm.. yeah something is off here, but meh".


Give me a break.
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90 Worgen Hunter
13140
That's fairly rude and unbecoming of someone who is in the position you are in, Dax.

Treating people like an animal by saying, "No! Bad!" and then rubbing their nose in it for jumping the gun is definately not what you should have done. Rather, you should have POLITELY STATED the incorrectness of it and moved on.

In this case, both parties here made an error in judgment. Shame to both of you.


It was a tongue in cheek post, though I've re-read it and I still don't find it particularly offensive. Agree to disagree?

This is an interesting example of dissonance in the style of communication that the community wants though. There's a segment of the community that would prefer nothing but perfectly polite, all-the-sharp-edges-grinded-off kind of customer service speak. Meanwhile, there were many players in this thread requesting 'bluntness'--some specifically to the point of rudeness. I think I usually tend somewhere in the middle, with a touch of humor thrown in now and then.


Not normally a kiss !@#, but I appreciate people like you and za and others who are able to put up with so many negative comments and still be professional. Most the people who attack you couldn't do the same. I am glad you guys are around making sure our opinions are heard.

Oh and this is coming from a jerk who got himself banned on d3 forums for being a giant... yea lols.
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