Sick of Blizz Lies about hearing feedback

90 Human Warrior
13015
Fresh New Post, rather a reply.

I think what frustrates me most about the current philosophy I see in this expansion from Blizz is this general idea of "We want to get players to do X"

There's a lot of "we want them out in the world" and "doing this is how we get players to know the world".

I admit, I am a cata baby, but cata is living up to being more "do whatever you want whenever you want" than Pandaria, which again, frustrates me because it was Pandaria that was sold as the "do whatever you want" expansion.

I enjoy doing dailies, questing, raiding. That's my thing. I know a lot of people don't like dailies and questing, and never, would I think to force them to do those things because I know it's not their thing. Case in point, I have a pretty good friend on WoW, but we typically don't play together because he's more PvP and I'm more PvE. I think it would be wrong to force either of us to spend our time doing what we don't find enjoyable.

That's why introducing a tabard would be so logical. They could even nerf the exp to make the grind longer - I bet those players wont care! Why? Because they are having fun. Meanwhile, I'm off having fun doing dailies. See, everyone having fun, happy community. That's a good thing.

Sadly, that's not the current reality - many people are feeling forced down a single path, and I would say a good chunck of them find it an unenjoyable experience. And remeber, this is a video game, gold isn't money, and the reason you came here was to have an enjoyable experience.


Unfortunately, if rep tabards are introduced and there's no daily cap, players will felt compeled to run dungeons for rep. When they get exalted with all rep, they will begin to see dungeons rewarding only 40 VP as "too low" and will come back to complained about it. Coupled with how mind-numbingly easy/boring the heroics are currently, things won't look good.

If there's a daily cap on heroics gained rep, players will feel compeled to finish both dailies and dungeon rep, making a daily "job" longer.

If there's a cap on amount of rep gain, the feel to keep in pace with dailies, daily rep gain, weekly VP gain and weekly charm gain will be too overwhelming for the current lot of players.

Put a cap back on dailies and impose rep gain on heroics, non-LFD runs? Too restrictive

There's no easy way out of this, and it's really no fault from Blizzard. The evolution of WoW has come to a point where the players are too spoilt by past ease and comfort ways of gearing up.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
12745
"we're aware of bots and our developers are working on it, please stop spamming our forums" - Blizzard in 2012

"we're aware of the influx of bots and we are working diligently on reducing them, please stop spamming our forums" - Blizzard in 2006.

Yeah guys, your voices are being heard, really.


Hey, if you can come up with the solution to get rid of all past present and future bots without hindering gameplay at all, give blizzard (and all game companies) a call, you'll make MILLIONS.
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100 Orc Shaman
15380
also worth mentioning the horrible pvp response time for everything from balance to out right cheating
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The content added this expansion is great, but the design direction (dailies/CRZ/brawler's guild) has gone to !@#$.

I'll be playing GW2 until Blizzard turns the ship around and if you're not happy with WoW ATM, I suggest you do the same. The game isn't going anywhere, it'll still be here. Take a break and work off the burnout with a different MMO and unsub in the meantime.

Declining subs speak louder than forum ranting.
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Unfortunately, if rep tabards are introduced and there's no daily cap, players will felt compeled to run dungeons for rep. When they get exalted with all rep, they will begin to see dungeons rewarding only 40 VP as "too low" and will come back to complained about it. Coupled with how mind-numbingly easy/boring the heroics are currently, things won't look good.

If there's a daily cap on heroics gained rep, players will feel compeled to finish both dailies and dungeon rep, making a daily "job" longer.

If there's a cap on amount of rep gain, the feel to keep in pace with dailies, daily rep gain, weekly VP gain and weekly charm gain will be too overwhelming for the current lot of players.

Put a cap back on dailies and impose rep gain on heroics, non-LFD runs? Too restrictive

There's no easy way out of this, and it's really no fault from Blizzard. The evolution of WoW has come to a point where the players are too spoilt by past ease and comfort ways of gearing up.


The easy way out is to only reward cosmetic items for reputation. "Power items" should only be obtainable from dungeons/raids and battlegrounds/arenas.

Reputation should not feel compulsory, but as an additional thing to do when you have nothing left to do in the week. No-one feels compelled to do pet battles and that's why they are fun. How many pet battle complaint threads are there in comparison?
Edited by Fizzlebrew on 11/13/2012 6:40 PM PST
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
11425
I think most people are mislabeling the problem.

The problem is not the dailies -- the problem is that DAILIES ARE THE ONLY SOURCE OF REPUTATION.

There would be no complaints if the following happened

-- Valor Point gear requires no reputation in order to be purchased
or
-- An alternate way to acquire reputation.


The Blood Elf is absolutely correct.


Too bad this point gets ignored...
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90 Tauren Warrior
0
This is hardly "proof." He made an oversight. He probably forgot about the inscription enchants. However, the head enchants were still the ONLY OPTION for that slot (unless you want to try and argue the ZG head enchants of old or Leatherworking armor kits, which weren't really an option anyways due to their severe lack of power compared to reputation head enchants). Someone making a mistake or an oversight isn't lying, sorry.


I'm going to take a page from blizzard. And from everyone else that is saying stuff like this this expansion.....

*ahem*

You didn't have to have a head enchant. It was optional. Nobody was forcing you to get a head enchant. It was notnecessary to raid. You could have raided without one, it was such a small stat increase.

Therefore, head enchants should have stayed in.

Or how about this one.

We changed random LFD rewards to be only once a day because having a 7 a week limit that you could do at your own pace and convenience made it feel like a job to some people. Conversely...... You don't have to do dailies, or do LFR, if you feel like you do, thats a perception problem on your end.

Say what?

This is another thing that annoys people blizzard and makes them feel like you don't pay attention. Constantly shifting and contradictory logic.
Edited by Herethebeef on 11/13/2012 6:59 PM PST
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45 Human Mage
500
Honestly for every example you gave, I think BLizz is doing the right thing.

Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it should be changed- regardless of whether its just you, or just a vocal minority, or even if it's a majority. Unfortunately what seems good to individual players isn't often good from a game design perspective.

And just because BLizz doesn't do what you suggest, doesn't mean it doesn't appreciate feedback.

Oh, and the whole dailies complaint is stupid. I do 5 minutes of dailies per day (1 faction worth) and will never be unable to spend valor, because my reputation gain exceeds my maximum valor income.
Edited by Tachycardia on 11/13/2012 7:04 PM PST
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90 Human Paladin
14480
I remember feeling this way when I first reached 90. I remember seeing the gating of enchants and VP gear. But I rather enjoy the dailies. Its quite a great way to generate gold in the game.

I know I QQed for a whole on the forums about the gold nerf to old dungeons for those of us who like soloing old content for fun and profit. Unfortunately the profit off of gold alone isnt enough to pay for a standard repair bill from old content. So I dont run the content anymore. No skin off my teeth, plenty of other things for me to do.

As for the enchants being gated? Yes I'm miffed over this one. At least in Cata the better enchants were gated behind DE'ed raid epics. They didnt come quickly but it took no grinding of dailies to get at those enchants. Dailies that net only about 2k rep per day (at best), I remember in classic helping friends farm for the Crusader enchant recipe, at the time the melee enchant of choice. Did it take several hours? Yes. Several WEEKS? No. Now I could compare making dark iron FR gear with the grindiness of the dailies for the enchants. I could compare the grindiness of hydraxian rep to just get quintessence to have the RIGHT to fight majordomo for the RIGHT to fight Ragnaros... yah bit time consuming there but the content was harder then and you usually wound up having close to enough rep anyway by the time you were at Majordomo.

I recognize that if I want special mounts and special high quality items I need to earn them. But gating enchants behind 2 gates (not just golden lotus but august celestials as well) seems a bit excessive. I would have no problem grinding one faction to Honored or Revered to get to the enchant. But grinding two seems a little over the top. Sure I want to work for my enchants. I LIKE having to work for my enchants. But 2 gates? A bit much. Stick the enchants at AC friendly. It requires the same golden lotus rep grind, and a little additional work, but not sitting so far down AC that it requires such a grind. The golden lotus grind takes long enough as it is. I wont even get into the best bag pattern for tailors, the only new bag pattern that we get sitting at AC exalted. I'd have liked to have seen a windwool bag. But again, my preference, and am willing to work my backside off for that bag pattern, because I believe its worth it and its a special item.
To say that enchants arent necessary, I believe that is naive. Sure they're not 100% absolutely required in order to play the game. But they werent required to play the game at any other expansion either. So the logic I feel is flawed. Did you NEED to have those shoulder enchants to experience the content in Cata? No. Really you dont NEED anything other than level in order to raid. In theory you could go in naked. Not the wisest of moves but you COULD do it.

I dont mind so much that valor gear is gated behind revered rep. Heck it makes me feel like I'm having to earn it. To earn similar quality gear by raiding I'd have to wait the same amount of time if the RNG gods didnt favor me that month. Perhaps the "any given sunday" approach to raiding is how people confuse "must grind rep" and "must wait for the loot to drop". I dont know. But I dont mind grinding dailies for an epic or two.

I dont feel "forced" to do dailies, I choose to do them. I just feel that for the most part, at the double gating level, the rewards are not matching the effort put in.

My issue with CRZ is mostly that its not serving its intended purpose. Making the game more fun by having more people questing in a zone. Now I'm seeing more hunters from cross realms camping pet spawn points. FUN! Even on a high pop server, seeing cross realm people camping spawn points. FUN! Cross realm camping is not fun. It does not add to the game at all. Cross zone questing, yes FUN! Cross realm competing against not only your own server but 3 other servers now as well, not so much fun. I'm seeing a very small fun rate of return on cross realm zones. Just my 2 cents. That along with a dollar might get me a small coffee somewhere.

Brawlers guild, meh. I wasnt really all that stoked about it in the first place. Not really my thing. But maybe fun for some other people. I'll have to reserve judgement until I see it in action.

My 2 cents has probably grown to a nickel now. I dont expect Blizz to jump through hoops to accomodate me or my playstyle or my selected path. I wont threaten to leave the game if they dont obey me. I'll be disappointed sure. But that's part of being an adult in this world. Even if you pay for something, you dont always get your way. Do I feel listened to? Sometimes yes. Sometimes I do feel that an agenda is already in force and that no amount of player input will change something that took a long time to implement.
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100 Orc Hunter
5695
11/13/2012 07:23 PMPosted by Nery
The fact that Cata was the way it was proves they listened to us. And it ended up being terrible (for a lot of people, at least). I've come to realize that the less they listen to us, the better the game will be.


^ this
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90 Tauren Paladin
16435
I see this as more of like one of those pay to get stuff kinda games now...except we all pay the same fee.

How a normal free game works

Free - Basic access
Monthly sub - Upgraded items

How WoW works now

$15 - Basic access
$15 - Basic access and hundreds of hours of grinding for upgraded items.
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100 Tauren Druid
11510
11/13/2012 12:03 PMPosted by Daxxarri
When I read this, here's what I am understanding. The enchant on the gear is MORE IMPORTANT than the actual gear itself? So, enchant > gear?


Unfortunately, it seems that you did misinterpret what I wrote. No, the enchantments are not more important than the gear, but they do complement all the gear you'll ever get over the course of that expansion (which is what made those reps essential). In Cataclysm, and previously, you had to have those item enhancements because they would apply over any gear you ever got. In Mists, you can skip rep gear, and move on to better gear, and never miss the reputations you didn't earn in the long run. Not that I'm advocating skipping dailies - there are definitely reasons to do them; just not to the point of fatigue that some choose to. We loosened the cap, and the intention there was to give players some flexibility regarding how they approached them.

While better gear is always helpful, the rep gear is only compelling enough to be called "necessary" relatively early in the progression cycle - and, in truth, it's only "necessary" for the guilds that are competing on that level. On the other hand, it seems that a certain type of player is always running extra miles of one sort or another to be at the cutting edge of content in every expansion, and with every new raid release. I mean, is any tangible, useful reward we provide--regardless of venue--going to seem to be anything less than absolutely mandatory to such a player, unless it is purely cosmetic?

Finally, as Zarhym mentioned elsewhere. We are paying attention and want to do better in the future. We're not in a position to completely re-work the way players interact with dailies on-the-fly, right-this-second. That expectation is unrealistic. We are always interested in learning better ways to approach these design challenges and make fun and compelling content, though.


You could start with quitting the "reinventing the wheel" approach to expansion design.

Quit revamping the process used to gain VP/JP. Quit revamping the ways to spend them. Quit revamping the ways to gain rep. Quit revamping talent trees. I could list numerous other things, but it boils down to this: Stop messing with the STRUCTURE of the game and focus on content.

You had things perfect in Wrath, IMO, but sadly that's long gone. Leave the structure of the game alone and work on the compelling content part. Re-learning how to play the game every two years is annoying.
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100 Blood Elf Warrior
18920
I don't see what the big deal is. Sure, I also feel like Blizzard just gives us the cursory "we appreciate your feedback" line, but as far as some of the OP's original points go, I don't dislike CRZ. I can't say it has made my gameplay more fun, and there *is* more competition for things like resources/pet battles/etc, but it's an MMO... I expect to see and deal with other random strangers. And when a friend on another server needs help with something like the Crucible of Carnage or something else out in the open world, it's nice to be able to get invited over to their server and help. I don't think this feature was intended to generate "fun," but that's more a problem with how people interact in WoW, and the nature of player selfishness and seeing anyone who's not in your guild as an antagonist there to take your resources/pet/etc.

For those saying the problem is that your lowpop server got all the negatives but none of the positives, you can still raid with these people, if you get to know them... You just can't guild them. But it's all about the guild and your own little community and a guild's sense of progress/self-worth, isn't it?

As far as Brawler's Guild goes, who really cares about that thing anyway? Like Renana said, wasn't stoked about it to begin with. Everybody knows that achievement for being the first one to kill all the bosses is just going to be whoever dropped the most gold to get one of the first tickets in... So congrats ahead of time, chumps, on wasting your money for an achieve... I have better things to spend mine on. I'll eventually get into the Brawler's guild at some point, and enjoy doing it then with friends. Until then, it's nothing that I'll concern myself with.

I consider the start of the Brawler's Guild to be a design flaw on Blizzard's part, and hope you guys don't create something so stupid again, but I can't control that so I don't worry about it too much. Maybe that does play into feeling like Blizzard occasionally has an agenda that no amount of player input would change. I even have a lot of friends who, no matter how many times I tell them "don't complain to me, go post on the forum about it", they refuse to do so... Because this is a cesspool of humanity and thinking Blizzard would read/acknowledge/much less affect change based upon one additional post seems ludicrous to them. I guess I'm an optimist.

I'll agree on the issue of rep/World of Dailycraft, and the gated enchants... That's just wrong. And the fact that they're giving us another rep grind in 5.1 is just -fantastic- (sarcasm alert.)
I realize that there are people who are already Exalted with every single MoP reputation by now and this is just a way to keep adding content so there's something to do for everyone, but jeez. It's a bit much. The beginning of MoP has given me my fill of reps and dailies for a long time.

Lastly...
You could start with quitting the "reinventing the wheel" approach to expansion design.

Quit revamping the process used to gain VP/JP. Quit revamping the ways to spend them. Quit revamping the ways to gain rep. Quit revamping talent trees. I could list numerous other things, but it boils down to this: Stop messing with the STRUCTURE of the game and focus on content.

You had things perfect in Wrath, IMO, but sadly that's long gone. Leave the structure of the game alone and work on the compelling content part. Re-learning how to play the game every two years is annoying.

This is another great point. And I realize they do this "reinventing" thing just to try to revitalize people's interest and keep you hooked, rather than "letting the game stagnate," but... it shouldn't be rocket science that instead of reworking mechanics that people know and like, you need to work on compelling content and story (like building up villains people care about, like Arthas, instead of Deathwing coming outta nowhere and... nobody cared about him at all, just like nobody really cares about the suddenly-revealed Isle of Pandas and all of their mogu problems.)
Edited by Onuavâ on 11/13/2012 7:57 PM PST
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