Sick of Blizz Lies about hearing feedback

90 Blood Elf Warlock
7545
11/13/2012 12:03 PMPosted by Daxxarri
We are always interested in learning better ways to approach these design challenges and make fun and compelling content, though


Yeah, nah not anymore it would seem. there is no way you lot had Fun in mind when creating the daily experience for MoP, atleast not for the other half of you're player base who doesn't get off on logging on every day.

This whole thing, and Blizz's attitude about it lately has been sickening, such blatant and stubborn disregard towards customers, i have never felt more disrespected as a customer in my life.

I'm not asking for a miracle i know what a toll redesigning the system or even adding a secondary one would take on other content development cycles, but you could at least have the damn courtesy to aknowledge the large portion of youre playerbase you completely ignored.

it's just...so...SICKENING....my god.....
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90 Troll Priest
12230
Giving feedback to blizz is like talking to a wall.
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90 Human Priest
0
11/13/2012 12:03 PMPosted by Daxxarri
When I read this, here's what I am understanding. The enchant on the gear is MORE IMPORTANT than the actual gear itself? So, enchant > gear?


Unfortunately, it seems that you did misinterpret what I wrote. No, the enchantments are not more important than the gear, but they do complement all the gear you'll ever get over the course of that expansion (which is what made those reps essential). In Cataclysm, and previously, you had to have those item enhancements because they would apply over any gear you ever got. In Mists, you can skip rep gear, and move on to better gear, and never miss the reputations you didn't earn in the long run. Not that I'm advocating skipping dailies - there are definitely reasons to do them; just not to the point of fatigue that some choose to. We loosened the cap, and the intention there was to give players some flexibility regarding how they approached them.

While better gear is always helpful, the rep gear is only compelling enough to be called "necessary" relatively early in the progression cycle - and, in truth, it's only "necessary" for the guilds that are competing on that level. On the other hand, it seems that a certain type of player is always running extra miles of one sort or another to be at the cutting edge of content in every expansion, and with every new raid release. I mean, is any tangible, useful reward we provide--regardless of venue--going to seem to be anything less than absolutely mandatory to such a player, unless it is purely cosmetic?

Finally, as Zarhym mentioned elsewhere. We are paying attention and want to do better in the future. We're not in a position to completely re-work the way players interact with dailies on-the-fly, right-this-second. That expectation is unrealistic. We are always interested in learning better ways to approach these design challenges and make fun and compelling content, though.


you could on-the-fly right-this-second turn off CRZs though. but you dont....
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90 Night Elf Druid
17095
Well, the gomer thing isn't the enchants - you can buy those in scroll form off the AH, the only person who has to grind to get them is the enchanter (that would be me, except I'm now tired of dailies - putting AC behind GL Revered was just plain stupid).

No, the real hat trick was removing head and shoulder enchants from rep grinds, but putting virtually all valor gear behind multiple rep grinds... I had a bunch of valor from doing dailies long before I had enough rep to spend it. You know you've done a lot of dailies when you've accumulated a few grand (at 5 valor per turn in, on average).

Combined with the terrible RNG rate in LFR, my personal experience is that gearing up in MoP is much slower than in any previous release save Classic. And I haven't even leveled up my other 2 toons yet, as I cannot fathom doing this end game grind again. (Not leveling to 90, leveling was fun, but the dailies/rep grinds after become incredibly tedious.) I've already burned out and slacked off on dailies the last couple of weeks. I'm knowingly stalling my own progression, but I'm so sick of doing the darn things.

(I am not knocking the quest designers - the quests themselves are enjoyable the first 10 times you do them, but not the next 25+ times, because they don't award enough rep per turn in. And worse, the mobs are so overtuned for current gear levels. I read somewhere a blue saying "you're used to doing Molten Front dailies in epics, stop complaining" - but these entry-level MoP dailies were not intended to be done by fully geared people. We aren't talking about a Molten Front type quest area that's being patched in a year after MoP hit, when everyone's geared up to the 490s. The entry-level epics are now hidden behind a reputation paywall that you have to do the dailies to get past - so re-tune the quest mobs for people in quest greens and blues!)

Regarding the LFR RNG though... Gotta love those candy bags with 28 gold, I get so many of them. At the rate RNG is working for me, I'll have enough gold to buy that ~104k mount before I finish collecting a good healing set... lol. If I don't do what I did the last couple of expansions, and quit for 6-12 months until they sort things out before coming back to play a much improved version of the expansion. :)
Edited by Gloryana on 11/13/2012 8:41 PM PST
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
16435
Those polls only used a few thousand people...


It's true that the forum population represents a relatively small chunk of the overall player base. It's also true that the kind of player that's apt to post on the forums doesn't necessarily represent all of the vast and incredibly diverse World of Warcraft community, but that doesn't mean that the feedback here isn't useful. We do realize that forum goers are often our most invested, passionate players. We appreciate you guys, and what you have to say matters.

That said, election polls and the forums are different in several key ways. Among them--and I don't want to get into how statistics works in detail (especially since I'm not an expert)--but I do know that the forums are what is called a 'self selecting sample', and that trying to derive representative statistics from such a sampling is an excellent way to get skewed results.


I like the new dailies, as long as I don't do more than one or two hubs a day my brain stays safely within the confines of sanity. That said, I think there's merit to what the OP and like-minded people say when they claim that Reputation grinds feel mandatory. However, I don't think they're mandatory for things like weapon enchants or bag patterns. Personally, I think they're mandatory simply because the PvE system does not work as intended unless you have at least a handful of Reputations at Honored / Revered. Of course, I'm talking about Justice and Valor gear being tied to reputation.

Why is this a problem? Well, mostly it stems from this tendency World of Warcraft has to "cross the streams" of gameplay. What I mean by this is that running dungeons for gear makes you more successful at daily questing, while doing dailies unlocks the ability to purchase gear that will make you more successful in raiding. That's not to say that progress in one area shouldn't help you out in another area; after all, that's part of the reason the new PvP Power and PvP Resilience system works so well; they function as a bridge from PvE into PvP, same with granting players baseline PvP Resilience.

Historically speaking, questing has been considered PvE Content, lumped in the same category as raiding, dungeons, and now scenarios. But the big difference between questing and the rest of its PvE ilk is that, obviously, you don't need to be in a group to quest. This is especially true that "group quests" have basically been abandoned in favor of Scenarios and "companion dailies" like the ones the Shado Pan grant. More and more, this idea of a "solo play progression system" keeps growing with the advent of things like the Brawler's Guild. This makes the ultimate question, "Why lock something that social players need behind solo content?" Ultimately, this is the reason I feel that people miss the tabard system; it was a way to earn Reputation doing what the player themselves wanted; by playing socially with others.

That said, I think a fair number of people did only enjoy the tabards for the "Two-Birds, One Stone" idea that Greg Street, Zarhym, and Bashiok have mentioned before. And ultimately, I agree with them. Rep Tabards is an antiquidated idea if Reputations are going to evolve into solo play content. It would be like unlocking the Terrace of Endless Spring raid for completing the Klaxxi questline; nonsensical. However, I also think that it is a serious problem that a cross-system rewards system (Valor and Justice) is locked behind solo play and isn't accessible through social play. Just like the new upgrade system won't be locked behind boss progression, the Valor and Justice gear shouldn't be locked behind reputation progression, and ultimately I think that freeing those items will end a lot of the quarreling that people are having over the Reputations themselves.

I'm sure its more than two cents, but its my opinion on the topic.
Edited by Rhozul on 11/13/2012 8:49 PM PST
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100 Human Paladin
13710
11/13/2012 12:13 PMPosted by Daxxarri
Agree to disagree?


Don't ever say that again. Ever.

I became incredibly infuriated when Jay Wilson said that when someone questioned the horrible story in Diablo III.

It's unprofessional and shows you know you're wrong, but won't accept it.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
16435
11/13/2012 08:41 PMPosted by Verthril
Agree to disagree?


Don't ever say that again. Ever.

I became incredibly infuriated when Jay Wilson said that when someone questioned the horrible story in Diablo III.

It's unprofessional and shows you know you're wrong, but won't accept it.


I don't agree with that. People are entitled to their own opinions on matters, even game developers. Being unwilling to accept that other people have an opinion different from your own shows more unprofessionalism in my opinion. I for one enjoed Diablo III's storyline; my problem with the game was that I was expected to play it over and over again to reach max level with the only different being an increase in difficulty. While this may be true in World of Warcraft, the repetition doesn't happen until after you've reached max level, and even then the story still continues.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
10535
11/13/2012 08:41 PMPosted by Verthril
Agree to disagree?


Don't ever say that again. Ever.

I became incredibly infuriated when Jay Wilson said that when someone questioned the horrible story in Diablo III.

It's unprofessional and shows you know you're wrong, but won't accept it.


Gasp them not agreeing with you is them automatically being wrong? For all we know ( we don't have the data they do showing who is doing what in game) we are wrong and they are right. The customer is not always right.
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48 Blood Elf Rogue
0
At the risk of playing the devil's advocate, I do sympathize with the OP and share some of his sentiments, not that Blizzard doesn't listen but rather that there have recently been some major concerns for many players which significantly detract from their enjoyment of the game (gated rep / daily grinds).

That said, I am quite satisfied with the response that Daxxari offered. It was very professional and at the same time sincere and offered me a better understanding of Blizzard's reasoning behind their decisions (which I had already suspected, mind you). Nonetheless, it was still quite reassuring to hear it from a blue and not simply have a blue question our idea of fun or simply be patronizing, argumentative or dismissive. Well said, Daxxari.

11/13/2012 10:35 AMPosted by Daxxarri
When something you feel strongly about hasn't been changed, that doesn't mean that we've dismissed feedback. In fact, sometimes we really like a suggestion, but implementing it doesn't quite fit into the schedule yet, or there are technical or design reasons why it doesn't fit into the game yet. Sometimes, we want to wait til we can implement a more elegant solution. And, of course, sometimes we simply disagree that a particular change is the right course for the game. Nonetheless, in none of these cases is feedback dismissed - it was still taken into account during the decision making process.
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100 Draenei Shaman
12955
11/13/2012 10:37 AMPosted by Hashtaggyolo
I have skipped dailies COMPLETELY on my druid and I am 474 ilvl. Been there for about a month.


oh dear, I've DONE all the dailies for a month and I'm at ilvl 475 only one point ahead of you rofl
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100 Night Elf Rogue
10535
Quit revamping the process used to gain VP/JP. Quit revamping the ways to spend them. Quit revamping the ways to gain rep. Quit revamping talent trees. I could list numerous other things, but it boils down to this: Stop messing with the STRUCTURE of the game and focus on content.

You had things perfect in Wrath, IMO, but sadly that's long gone. Leave the structure of the game alone and work on the compelling content part. Re-learning how to play the game every two years is annoying.


This, seriously, this.


The wheel was broken. Hence it got fixed. Remember all the threads about how people were bored to tears during cataclysm? Rewards were too easy to get at the end of WOTLK and throughout cataclysm. Now they are things worth putting in effort for. This after all isn't some FPS.
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90 Orc Death Knight
8285
Noticed you simply skipped the part about ignoring CRZ and Brawlers guild feedback.
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90 Night Elf Druid
17095
[quote]Quit revamping the process used to gain VP/JP. Quit revamping the ways to spend them. Quit revamping the ways to gain rep. Quit revamping talent trees. I could list numerous other things, but it boils down to this: Stop messing with the STRUCTURE of the game and focus on content.

You had things perfect in Wrath, IMO, but sadly that's long gone. Leave the structure of the game alone and work on the compelling content part. Re-learning how to play the game every two years is annoying.


/signed.

I'd so much rather have more new zones, new quest areas, new storylines, new mobs to hunt, new races to meet, a graphics update, than the constant "tinkering" with systems that weren't terribly broken to begin with.

You got it partially right with MoP - things like Battle Pets are new and fun and awesome. Unfortunately the entire "gear progression" setup is a massive fail in so many ways that have been pointed out upstream here. You guys spent tons of development time on things that didn't really need to change, though I am sure you convinced yourselves it was necessary.

When you guys sit down at a table to discuss what to do to the game next, it should be a conversation about how you can WOW the customer, no pun intended. What could we ADD to the game that people would like? Instead, it often has felt like you had too few truly innovative ideas, and too many new hires who wanted to put their stamp on a talent system, a combat system, or a progression path. So instead of adding content, (zones and races aside), the rest of the dev team seems to do nothing but refactor existing systems.

Be INNOVATIVE, not simply iterative. There's some room for iteration - systems age, and refactoring is a necessary part of software sometimes - but you guys have taken it to the extreme. You fall so in love with your mechanics redesigning that you forget we don't really need it to have fun in your game. Iterating is easier than innovating, though... :(
Edited by Gloryana on 11/13/2012 9:20 PM PST
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11/13/2012 12:04 PMPosted by Seebach


No! Bad! Stop pointing to data-mined content as fact. The change that got picked up was actually an adjustment to Darkmoon Card trinkets for Challenge Mode stat scaling.


That's fairly rude and unbecoming of someone who is in the position you are in, Dax.

Treating people like an animal by saying, "No! Bad!" and then rubbing their nose in it for jumping the gun is definately not what you should have done. Rather, you should have POLITELY STATED the incorrectness of it and moved on.

In this case, both parties here made an error in judgment. Shame to both of you.


Oh please, people talk like this all the time these days. The CM's are allowed to use the same slang as is common out in the world. It's a friendly, joking way of speaking to each other, not treating each other like an animal.
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