Boomkin; Crit over Haste?

90 Night Elf Druid
5455
So I know that before MoP was released, the big stat priority that everyone was seeing was Crit > Haste > Mastery. Well shortly after release this changed to Haste to breakpoint (35.75% with moonkin aura and NG) > Crit > Mastery. And I have been following this since I cannot seem to find where the other breakpoints lie, I do know that with this setup it allows for 3 extra ticks on MF/SuF. But now as I look at many top players, including some that post here quite often, I see stacking crit over all else, and it must be working, since some of these players are also in top progression guilds.

My question: Is it viable to start stacking crit over all else before reaching item level 480? Since I beleive mine is 474 or so currently, I am wondering should I reforge and regem to stack crit where possible and forget about haste all together? or is there an overlap where I can get 1 or two extra ticks on DoTs while still having a high haste? Would this be more effective than simply stacking crit? Or is high crit superior to all other set ups?
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90 Troll Druid
11620
Running a lot of Haste, versus a lot of Crit isn't that big of a deal in single-target. So whatever your playstyle dictates, play what you like.

This is not case for Multi-Target. "On a few targets you end up using all your GCD's on refreshing dots and starsurges so, the extra dot tick barely matters." ~ Zoomkins.
(^ on their public forum)
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90 Worgen Druid
10200
Are you gearing for a specific encounter, or overall progression?

A high crit setup is really amazing for anything that's multi-target. Many dots + many crits = many SS procs. For single target, haste is still the winner.

For general good results, though, haste til the 5273 break point followed by crit is the way to go.

Also, it's very possible for you to reach 5273 haste in your current gear.
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90 Worgen Druid
Lux
11730
This is not a definitive answer, but I was curious. So I looked up the boomkins in the top 6 guilds in the world and found that every one of them reached the haste breakpoint (including Zoomkins, so his answer was certainly a lament rather than advice on how to gear).

It's not a definitive answer because they have enough gear to very easily reach that breakpoint without gimping their other stats. I do not. (I was asked to gather a boomkin set two weeks ago, and the 471 set I have right now couldn't make that breakpoint even if I regemmed exclusively for haste.) When these same guilds didn't have the gear, in the first two weeks of MoP rating, almost all of them used crit-heavy builds as well.

I think that's largely what it comes down to. If you can comfortably reach the 5273 breakpoint, then it's better overall. If you can't, go for the crit.
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90 Worgen Druid
10200
Honestly, I wish those top boomkins would start logging off naked so people stop saying "omg but ZOOMKINS does this, so it must be what I should do, too!"

Zoomkins, Lappe, the others, they're all smart guys. They know what they're doing. But what they're doing has so little bearing on what you and I are doing that the only point of scoping out their armory is to drool over their gear.

They start off progressing undergeared on tough fights. They are changing their reforging and stat priority around on a fight by fight basis. Unless you have the exact same gear, raid comp/strat and progression as one of those top druids, then what they do doesn't matter to what you should do.

One of the reasons they are so successful is that they understand the rules enough to know where the exceptions should be. They know they need to accomplish a certain goal in a specific encounter, so they figure out how to do it. That doesn't mean that that strategy will work for everyone, though.
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90 Troll Druid
11445
Honestly, I wish those top boomkins would start logging off naked so people stop saying "omg but ZOOMKINS does this, so it must be what I should do, too!"

Zoomkins, Lappe, the others, they're all smart guys. They know what they're doing. But what they're doing has so little bearing on what you and I are doing that the only point of scoping out their armory is to drool over their gear.

They start off progressing undergeared on tough fights. They are changing their reforging and stat priority around on a fight by fight basis. Unless you have the exact same gear, raid comp/strat and progression as one of those top druids, then what they do doesn't matter to what you should do.

One of the reasons they are so successful is that they understand the rules enough to know where the exceptions should be. They know they need to accomplish a certain goal in a specific encounter, so they figure out how to do it. That doesn't mean that that strategy will work for everyone, though.
I agree. After seeing all the people bringing up stuff like that recently I now feel like I slightly know the frustration felt by reesi and arielle every time someone said "but sejta stacks stam!" last expac. I mean not really, but kind of.
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90 Troll Druid
8930
Through numerous instances and levels of gear, I've seen crit stacking and ignoring the haste soft cap to out preform on almost every fight.

The reason you see me with the haste cap is because (not trying to gloat please) I have been clearing heroic raids for a while so my haste/crit rating is naturally higher at this point. I am reaching the haste cap not even reforging into it.

I still advocate and advise that at lower gear levels you should use int gemming and crit reforging.

Simcraft and other tools are great but, actually numbers and parses being looked at show it out preforming by alot.

At this point I feel I have so much more SP that I'm gemming even more crit so that I can get more Starsurges. Don't use me at 500 ilvl as a complete example on what you should be doing at say 470 ilvl. It's a lot of gear.

Also I'm not amazing with words so I tend not to post a lot. TOODLES
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90 Troll Druid
9210
So at this gear lvl what i should do?

11/20/2012 03:03 AMPosted by Zoomkins
Also I'm not amazing with words so I tend not to post a lot. TOODLES


You are a good guy that's all
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100 Night Elf Druid
15840
11/20/2012 03:03 AMPosted by Zoomkins
I still advocate and advise that at lower gear levels you should use int gemming and crit reforging.


I'm just wondering what you'd consider to be the benchmarks to look for before it becomes worth it to gem 320 crit gems in yellow sockets (I'm assuming we still want all socket bonuses). A minimum amount of int and/or spellpower and/or crit?

Sorry if this question is too specific, but it's not everyday I see a thread like this. :)
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90 Worgen Druid
9570
I still advocate and advise that at lower gear levels you should use int gemming and crit reforging.

Simcraft and other tools are great but, actually numbers and parses being looked at show it out preforming by alot.

Also I'm not amazing with words so I tend not to post a lot. TOODLES


/mindblown

Question for you Zoomkins - why would you Int gem but Crit reforge? At my gear level (489), Simcraft and Wrathcalcs are showing Crit to be more than 1/2 as good as Int (although it's very close).

I have gone full Crit gemming and reforging for Garalon - I assume that is the type of multi-target fight that you are referring to where a haste build doesnt add alot of value.

On a related note, I tried going SotF / DoC for Garalon but absolutely hated the DoC hardcast time (I felt I couldnt take advantage of my SS procs effectively) so I ended up going Inc/NV. Still I think I might go back to at least SotF / HotW for that fight and maybe give DoC a shot since theres so much healing needed on that fight - thoughts?

-PP
Edited by Pippilongear on 11/21/2012 6:51 AM PST
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90 Troll Druid
11620
Question for you Zoomkins - why would you Int gem but Crit reforge? At my gear level (489), Simcraft and Wrathcalcs are showing Crit to be more than 1/2 as good as Int (although it's very close).

Not Zoomkins, but here's an answer.

Int = Guaranteed Damage
Crit = Bad damage, Average Damage, Amazing Damage

And SimC, WC, etc would show higher (average) simulations compared to Crit because Crit is as described above. Since we are in lower levels of gear, Crit is going to be lower, though it could be higher. With that said, the more Crit you have, the better it becomes. I've been able to sustain a 8 SS CA opener, which is seriously ridiculous. Those are capable of critting upwards of 550k (min. 300k DPS in that window). Eventually, we'll get to gear levels were that happens every single Incarnation (and much, much more damage output through raw spell power).
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90 Troll Druid
8930
From the mouth of lets say someone who designed our changes for this expansion.

"simcraft is not an accurate tool for gauging most classes' DPS, except hunters."

Crit in nature is not something you can accurately predict because it is a probability, thus you have to give it some sort of static value to work in a simulation.

Haste has a static value so it's dps can be measured easily.

From my playing and play testing these are the conclusions I've seen through multiple pulls and kills (hundreds) and playing with my other moonkin in the guild who keep up or do more at time!

We have gone head to head on hundreds of occasions actually play testing multiple specs and stat weights. Don't think I don't do the science to steer you wrong!

As a moonkin your ratings all help you but, in different ways. No stat is a bad stat. It just depends on the balance (not pun) of what you're working with at the time.

As you get more gear you will naturally reach that haste cap but from extensive knowledge and playing it was a dps loss to gear for it too early because you are very far from it. You end up giving up your other rating synergies for it. For a single tick of dots, which 70% of the time, you should clip while running out of fires.

I could rant for many pages, I'm just trying to halp.

SoTF used to be good but, after the Euphoria changes in beta it is far from what it used to be. Going from solar to lunar the energy gain can be non existant because hitting an odd number, say 65 to 95, means you still need one more cast to hit the next eclipse. During those instances it's dps value becomes NIL. This happens quite frequently with the euphoria changes.
It is still decent if you want consistant damage but, stacking a 25% damage buff on top of a 20% on top of a (lets say) 55% for 30 seconds, is way to big of a gain and even a tool for burns and damage amp bosses.

There are many damage amp bosses and burn phases :P.
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90 Troll Druid
11620
11/23/2012 02:55 AMPosted by Zoomkins
I could rant for many pages, I'm just trying to halp.

(Wouldn't mind)
(And you got the 4pc this week...)
Edited by Cyous on 11/23/2012 11:24 AM PST
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90 Worgen Druid
10200
Zoomkins, I (and I'm sure many others) really appreciate your insights. It's awesome to hear it straight from the chicken's mouth, so to speak.

I have no doubts that you've spent countless hours testing all this stuff, and I'm more or less fully on the crit at low gear levels boat now.

I still have my original worries about people armory stalking you and saying things like "Zoomkins does this, therefore I should too." I'm just wondering if you could speak your thoughts on people trying to emulate top ranking moonkins (or any player, really) and copy their setup without really having the understanding of why said players are doing what they're doing.

Also, as Cyous said, totally wouldn't mind hearing you go on for pages :)
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100 Night Elf Druid
15840
Zoomkins, I (and I'm sure many others) really appreciate your insights. It's awesome to hear it straight from the chicken's mouth, so to speak.

I have no doubts that you've spent countless hours testing all this stuff, and I'm more or less fully on the crit at low gear levels boat now.


lol'd at the "chicken's mouth bit, and completely agree with being on Team Crit (Edward and whatever the other guys' name is suck compared to Crti!)

Also, I think we should acknowledge Cyous' contributions to the thread. (S)he may not be Zoomkins, but (s)he's still got some serious progression under his/her belt.
Edited by Bealz on 11/25/2012 3:20 PM PST
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90 Troll Druid
8930
Crit actually gives you,

Extra dot ticks on your eclipsed dot and non eclipsed dot which can proc multiple times
Extra starsurge procs which are 20 energy
Extra damage from things like skull banner
multitudes of SS's during cooldown which is your hardest hitting DPE

Haste gives you

Extra dot tick x1, and only one
Slightly faster cast times

Logically even, you class was based to favor a certain stat. I find it weird that people stick to haste because of spreadsheets or what was amazing in cataclysm.

It is not an ultimatum decision it is what your class was designed around. Haste is still a good secondary stat though!
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