Jade Spirit vs. Windsong for Healing

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90 Human Paladin
15450
What is your opinion on these two enchants for healing?

I do have some limited data from Ellegon and Will of the Emperor last night.

Elegon (9:02)

Buff gained for myself (using windsong) 10 haste procs, 9 mastery procs, 6 crit procs.
Bohai (resto shaman) 10 jade spirit procs.

Will of the Emperor (9:15)

Buff gained 12 crit procs, 12 mastery mastery procs, 9 haste procs.
Bohai 10 jade spirit procs again.

I have mixed feelings about these two enchants right now. For all practical purpose, jade spirit procs roughly once every 54-55 seconds for Bohai. Windsong however is proccing at 2.5 to 3 times the rate of Jade Spirit.

What do you think?
90 Night Elf Druid
0
Baseless mathless guessing:

Unless your Windsong procs are regularly stacking, Jade Spirit is probably better throughput-wise, not to mention JS's Spirit buff when you're low on mana.
100 Draenei Paladin
13290
EDIT: Leaving this post up for posterity (pun intended? sort of), but in retrospect it's pretty off-the-ball. There's some good discussion later in the thread though.

---

Windsong may have a much higher uptime, but you need to consider that one of those procs merely increases your crit chance by a couple percent, meaning that in terms of reliable throughput it might as well not be there. (Not saying it's useless mind you, just that a random crit buff is probably the least useful sort of proc a healer could possibly get that is still technically comprised of relevant stats.)

Then there's the haste one. This varies from class to class - but for most of us, it isn't that stellar. It's possible that 1500 extra haste would push you over a HoT threshold, but in general it's just going to speed up your casts by a bit. Not bad by any means, but also not ideal or mana efficient.

The mastery one is superb for Holy Paladins. This can depend heavily on the class itself, I'm not super familiar with every healing class, but I know that we love mastery and because the stat is reliable, a random mastery proc is actually pretty useful. So this is the main reason that Windsong is good for us.

Now compare to Jade Spirit. Sure, it has a lower overall uptime, but 1650 Intellect clobbers the bejeezus out of 1500 to a secondary stat in terms of overall HPS, and when you take into consideration that one of the Windsong procs is merely shifting RNG slightly in your favor rather than giving you a real buff to your throughput...

Well, I have no real numbers, but this should be pretty clear. Oh yeah, and then there's the whole regen aspect. Getting 750 Spirit, even if it's only a couple times a fight (my hunch is that it will proc much more often than that though), is pretty darn good and something you should definitely not overlook.

TL;DR - Jade Spirit looks to be worth the gold.
Edited by Tailias on 10/27/2012 11:19 AM PDT
90 Gnome Priest
11895
10/25/2012 06:54 PMPosted by Tailias
TL;DR - Jade Spirit looks to be worth the gold.

Well, depending on the cost.

On Proudmoore, last I checked it was 11k gold to Windsong's 100g. I'm sticking with Windsong until that Jade Spirit price drops like a rock.
100 Draenei Paladin
13290
11k is pretty unreasonable. Have you checked the cost of the mats? I'm not convinced that on a server as huge and with as many enchanters as Proudmoore, Sha Crystals are going for 1k a pop. Smells like a hefty markup to me.

I know that here on Kargath (lowish pop), Sha Crystals seem to be settling down in price around 500-600g, and the prices will only decrease as more LFR gear gets sharded and AH'd.
90 Human Paladin
15450
Bohai just learned it two days ago. For me it costs 5k. Basically the cost of the 10 sha crystals.

Windsong is dirt cheap on our server. Around 30-60g.
90 Blood Elf Priest
0
Nope, windsong every time.

Windsong is totaling up to around 80% uptime (something is wrong with RPPM), in fact on our best Heroic Elegon attempt tonight I actually had it at 122.3% uptime across the three buffs. 80% puts it at 1200 secondary, almost 4 times the amount of int you get (and you get about 30 spirit average ). Very few classes value any particular secondary at less than 1/3rd of int, and the average total value of secondaries is always higher. In other words, windsong is best for everybody over jade spirit.
Edited by Sotanaht on 10/25/2012 10:09 PM PDT
100 Human Paladin
17350
I would also like more evidence on this. I noticed windsong was up quite a bit when I had it proc'd on my old blue axe, but am debating what to put on it now.

Please disregard cost of mats here.
90 Blood Elf Priest
0
I would also like more evidence on this. I noticed windsong was up quite a bit when I had it proc'd on my old blue axe, but am debating what to put on it now.

Please disregard cost of mats here.


My evidence is my logs. I can see that each individual buff runs pretty high on any of our long attempts. All you need to do is look at the buffs gained section of your log for a fight and add the three windsong procs together.

It's possible that there are classes or bosses where it doesn't proc as often, but as long as I'm getting 122% on any fights then there isn't a doubt in my mind about sticking with it.
Edited by Sotanaht on 10/25/2012 10:31 PM PDT
100 Human Paladin
aus
19035
10/25/2012 07:29 PMPosted by Tailias
11k is pretty unreasonable. Have you checked the cost of the mats? I'm not convinced that on a server as huge and with as many enchanters as Proudmoore, Sha Crystals are going for 1k a pop. Smells like a hefty markup to me.


Mats yesterday where 5k, mats today are 4k. Having said that 24 hours ago it was only selling for 750g markup on 5k mats so not sure where the 11k came from.

Hmm 8k right now, /shrug.
90 Gnome Priest
11895
10/25/2012 10:53 PMPosted by Mate
11k is pretty unreasonable. Have you checked the cost of the mats? I'm not convinced that on a server as huge and with as many enchanters as Proudmoore, Sha Crystals are going for 1k a pop. Smells like a hefty markup to me.


Mats yesterday where 5k, mats today are 4k. Having said that 24 hours ago it was only selling for 750g markup on 5k mats so not sure where the 11k came from.

Hmm 8k right now, /shrug.

It was a couple weeks ago.

I would also like more evidence on this. I noticed windsong was up quite a bit when I had it proc'd on my old blue axe, but am debating what to put on it now.

Please disregard cost of mats here.


My evidence is my logs. I can see that each individual buff runs pretty high on any of our long attempts. All you need to do is look at the buffs gained section of your log for a fight and add the three windsong procs together.

It's possible that there are classes or bosses where it doesn't proc as often, but as long as I'm getting 122% on any fights then there isn't a doubt in my mind about sticking with it.

Links?

I haven't paid attention to the uptime on mine, but I have a theory it might be a bug in the way Windsong procs interact with Prayer of Healing. Might be giving you five procs at the same proc chance that you should only be getting one for.
90 Human Paladin
15450
I am looking at 55 to 71 percent uptime for Windsong on my logs.

Only 21 to 29 percent uptime on Jade Spirit.

This is why I am asking people to look at their logs. The uptime on Windsong is insane right now.

I just looked at my lfr logs, and the uptime for Windsong is even higher with 25-man raid. It ranges from 80 to over 100 percent uptime. Probably because all I do is HR, HS, LoD in LFR.
Edited by Rasul on 10/25/2012 11:39 PM PDT
90 Draenei Priest
15320
I would also like more evidence on this. I noticed windsong was up quite a bit when I had it proc'd on my old blue axe, but am debating what to put on it now.

Please disregard cost of mats here.


In a perfect world, you should never be getting the spirit proc from Jade Spirit.

Jade Spirit
1650 Int / 12 sec Duration / 50 sec Cooldown. <24% Uptime, Avg: 396 Int.

Windsong (multiple procs can be active at the same time)
1500 Haste, Mastery or Crit / 12 sec Duration / 2RPPM / 80%+ Uptime Avg: 1200 Substat

As long as 2/3 stats are valuable to your class, Windsong is probably as good as Jade Spirit.
You're also less likely to "waste" a Windsong proc compared to a Jade Spirit proc.
Edited by Mintia on 10/25/2012 11:48 PM PDT
90 Human Paladin
15450
I would also like more evidence on this. I noticed windsong was up quite a bit when I had it proc'd on my old blue axe, but am debating what to put on it now.

Please disregard cost of mats here.


In a perfect world, you should never be getting the spirit proc from Jade Spirit.

Jade Spirit
1650 Int / 12 sec Duration / 50 sec Cooldown. <24% Uptime, Avg: 396 Int.

Windsong (multiple procs can be active at the same time)
1500 Haste, Mastery or Crit / 12 sec Duration / 2RPPM / 80%+ Uptime Avg: 1200 Substat

As long as 2/3 stats are valuable to your class, Windsong is probably as good as Jade Spirit.
You're also less likely to "waste" a Windsong proc compared to a Jade Spirit proc.


I was affraid of this. Oh well. I should have waited and checked the logs before enchanting my new weapon. Ironic that a 60g enchant is as good or better than a 5k gold enchant.
90 Gnome Priest
7235
Nope, windsong every time.

Windsong is totaling up to around 80% uptime (something is wrong with RPPM), in fact on our best Heroic Elegon attempt tonight I actually had it at 122.3% uptime across the three buffs. 80% puts it at 1200 secondary, almost 4 times the amount of int you get (and you get about 30 spirit average ). Very few classes value any particular secondary at less than 1/3rd of int, and the average total value of secondaries is always higher. In other words, windsong is best for everybody over jade spirit.


600 Critical = 1%
600 Mastery = 1 point (value depends on Mastery)
450 Haste = 1%
105 Spellpower = 1%

The spellpower you receive from Int is also increased by 5% by your armor mastery and then another 15% by raid buffs (and maybe more - Priests get another 10% from self-buff, for example). So it's more like 88 spellpower = 1%.
90 Human Priest
6820
I have been wondering this as well as the materials alone to enchant Jade Spirit vs Windsong are so much costlier. I've been creating Sha crystals every other day or so to have some on hand in order to test out the numbers as I have a 476 main hand now. But I have to say that Windsong seems to be up nearly CONSTANTLY; and if Jade Spirit is like Power Torrent - it will be more random. I do benefit from those secondary stats a good bit!
90 Pandaren Shaman
14215
600 Critical = 1%
600 Mastery = 1 point (value depends on Mastery)
450 Haste = 1%
105 Spellpower = 1%

105 Spellpower is *nowhere* close to a 1% throughput increase. Not even in the same ballpark.

Do you have a source for your Spellpower figure, or are you just making things up on the spot?
90 Night Elf Druid
0
600 Critical = 1%
600 Mastery = 1 point (value depends on Mastery)
450 Haste = 1%
105 Spellpower = 1%

105 Spellpower is *nowhere* close to a 1% throughput increase. Not even in the same ballpark.

Do you have a source for your Spellpower figure, or are you just making things up on the spot?


Considering he's been posting that number everywhere without evidence, it seems like he's pulling it out of his !@#.

1% haste is also not necessarily a 1% throughput increase (it's significantly more if it helps you reach a HoT tick and quite a bit less if not, for HoT classes), and 1% crit is also only a 1% throughput increase on average (not including modifiers like Divine Aegis which would increase its value).

At the risk of looking like an idiot, I'm just going to say that healing is a lot less mathematical than you're trying to make it, Blucket. Different encounters, raid comps, etc can skew stat values, which very rarely happens for DPS (best example off the top of my head is Spine).

For example, Spine and Madness both inflated the value of spirit due to their higher lengths compared to other fights in the tier.

In this specific case, Windsong is likely to be the more beneficial simply due to its uptime (low-uptime, uncontrollable buffs are...less than desirable, anyway).
Edited by Restorata on 10/26/2012 1:03 PM PDT
90 Gnome Priest
7235
105 Spellpower is *nowhere* close to a 1% throughput increase. Not even in the same ballpark.

Do you have a source for your Spellpower figure, or are you just making things up on the spot?


Greater Heal heals 22726 at base with a 219% coefficient. 1% of 22726 is 227.26; divide by 2.19... ~105.
Rejuvenation heals 4234 at base with a 39.2% coefficient. 1% of 4234 is 42.34; divide by 0.392... ~105.
Holy Light heals 8868 at base with a 78.5% coefficient. 1% of 8868 is 88.68; divide by 0.785... ~105.

I won't go through every single healing spell but you'll discover that most (if not all) spells adhere to the rule that the ratio between base healing and the coefficient is around 105.

What you may be reacting to is the fact that abilities like haste, mastery and critical are all applied after spellpower, while spellpower is applied before the effects of spellpower. So while spellpower only increases the base healing, those other abilities increase the healing with your spellpower already included.

So if you had 10,500 spellpower, you would just about double the size of all your heals for the purposes of haste/mastery/critical but not for the purposes of calculating the value of further spellpower.

Note that Int also grants 30.37% of its value in critical rating.
Edited by Blucket on 10/26/2012 1:15 PM PDT
90 Night Elf Druid
0
math


Thank you for that clarification.

The problem (specifically pertaining to this topic) is that (pseudo)random, short-duration int procs, while not bad for healers, are not ideal; they're likely to not be available/active at times when they're actually needed.

So, while JS might be mathematically superior, in practice, Windsong will likely be more valuable do to its more reliable uptime.

e: oh god why did I quote the whole thing
Edited by Restorata on 10/26/2012 1:26 PM PDT
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