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Loving the revamped guide you made, as well as the videos you put up.
I think that engineering / black smithing is the strongest, Sure the extra intellect is nice but nothing really beats a minor burst in damage when not actually bursting with those rockets. It's very strong to use after bursting and the enemy is low but you're out of fury but hey!! your rockets are up, free 42,000 damage. You can also use it while hexxed. Not to mention the other uses outside of rated play is just too fun.
I believe your other post was deleted before I saw the reply to my question. In short, I find myself mainly spamming Fel Flame outside of meta while pvping in demo. Is this something I should be doing? Everything else I cast I have time to get up and make dinner before it finishes casting, which usually leads to being interrupted.
I find myself casting fel flame and dots most of the time, however if i do cast anything i prefer it be hellfire or soulfire, this doesn't lock me out of my other classes when interrupted and I usually don't fake cast it for that reason.
90 Human Warlock
Quick question from one demo bro to the other. When Dark Soul is on cooldown, do you save your Hand of Gul'dan stacks and wait to burst with chaos waves with them, or do you just use them for the fury generation? I find myself saving them unless there's a bunch of people and pets grouped up, in which case I would think the fury generation would be fantastic
To be honest I only double chaos wave outside of cooldowns if i can get 2 people and have a large amount, otherwise I use at least 1 charge on will for the fury / slow. Not much need to save it unless you are lining up a burst.
Is there an application process or something i can look at while servers are down ?
Thank you, Makes sense with the engineering rocket gloves. I'll give that a go again.
As for talents. I really enjoy using Blood Fear, but my teammate said to use Unbound Will to have a secondary trinket. I used Unbound Will for a couple of games and it was nice, but I think Blood Fear is gamebreaking, especially when I need to peel or CC a healer for a kill. Would like your thoughts on this if possible.
Same goes for the Grimoire tree. I'm having the most trouble choosing one. I like all three for demo. Supremacy feels really great due to bigger Sacrificial Pact Shields but having that other Stun/Silence with Service is just nice for finishing off the job to land a kill. Haven't really tried Sacrifice in arena as demo since I feel like im being Fury starved, but I'm thinking of trying it with my pet out at first then Saccing it when I'm ready for burst.
Any tips on that would really help. Sorry for all the questions, just trying to get ready to push rating in 3s this week and want to strt messing around to see what works best.
Nah no applications, our only goal is to pvp our hearts out. We're just a group of people who team up for what we need. ^^ I team hop a lot of 2v2, 5v5, rbgs .
Thank you, Makes sense with the engineering rocket gloves. I'll give that a go again.
I've been preferring blood fear over anything else really. It's strong and so is unbound but when you are going for kills instant fears are amazing... combine this with howl of terror and you can keep a lot of things feared.
I've been going for supremacy just for the sacrificial shields. It's such a great tool and I use it in conjunction with the felguard hp glyph.
I can't claim to be an excellent player, but I do frequent these class forums fairly regularly and have extensive experience (if not actual accomplishment) with all forms of PvP.
The main class I see asked about here on the Lock boards are Warriors, and I believe that most of the problem comes from lack of information. I believe I am in a unique position, because my current main is a Warrior (has been since my return to WoW in Cata, so I know how he works) but my old main is a Warlock. I know the ins and outs of both classes. Thus, I will shamelessly piggyback on Maleficium's excellent thread to add a guide on combat vs Warriors. (If you take issue with this, OP, tell me, and I will make a separate thread.)
TL;DR will be included after each section.
Note: This is not intended as a derailment, and for the love of all that's dark and awesome don't ask me Lock PvP questions, ask Maleficium,because I haven't been even moderately competitive with mine since the beginning of Wrath and she's far better at this whole caster schtick than I could ever hope to be.
What to Do When A Big Man Is Yelling and Running at You with a Large Axe:
or, How to Fight Warriors in PvP
1. Warriors are not immune to Fear. I see this one all the time. Warriors are not immune to Fear effects. We DO, however, have several abilities that break Fear or prevent its application. Knowledge is power, so:
Berserker Rage: 30 second cooldown. Breaks Fear on the Warrior (as well as Sap, Repentance, and similar effects. Officially, it breaks fears and incapacitates. Will include full list if asked) and makes him immune to it for 6 seconds. Also Enrages the Warrior, which is a 10% damage increase on all physical damage. All of our damage is physical. DO NOTE that if you run into a Fury Warrior, be VERY careful. Fury's Mastery increases the benefit of Enrage effects, and it's their second-best stat, so expect them to have lots of it. BR can be as much as a 25% DPS increases for Fury. On the bright side, Fury tends to save BR for an on-demand Enrage, and may not use it defensively.
What to Do: Be smart. Berserker Rage will NOT break horrify effects like Mortal Coil. It only breaks normal Fear, which includes Howl of Terror and Spriest Fear so if you run with a Shadow Priest be aware of this. 99% of Warriors will use BR to break the first Fear they're hit with, so plan around it, and don't try and re-Fear for 6 seconds, just kite normally.
Do note that many bad Warriors will put Berserker Rage into their bull!@#$ oneshot macro, which will leave it down for 30 seconds after that.
Recklessness: Warriors have one other Fear immunity, and that's our big DPS CD, Recklessness. It has a 5 minute cooldown and lasts for 12 seconds. It DOES NOT break Fear, but we ARE immune to Fear as long as it is up.
What to Do: Save Mortal Coil, Shadowfury, or Axe Toss for his Recklessness. A big part of why Warriors tend to eat Warlocks is because they try to Fear us when we burst and it doesn't work. It only lasts for 12 seconds, so if you can keep him away for 3 with SF or MC, you can easily get enough distance to kite out the remaining 9.
2. We ARE peelable. It's just hard. The current standard PvP setup for Warriors includes 3 ways to get to our target; let's examine each.
Charge: The most common gap closer we use, which takes us from point A directly to you. It is affected by talents, so it will either have a 12 second cooldown, or have two "charges," meaning we can use it twice in a row. DO NOTE that the 12 second one is far more common because the double charge has an easily exploitable weakness: if we double Charge, we CAN NOT double Charge again for 40 seconds, and we can't Charge at all for 20. Charge stuns for exactly 1.0 seconds to make sure it works.
What to Do: Not much you can do about Charge, and it's usually not much of an issue. However, Charge can be used as a ghetto interrupt. If you see a Warrior running away from you and he's not trying to hide, he's probably (read: always) getting out of Charge's minimum range to interrupt or stun you. This can EASILY be avoided with a simple trick that just takes some practice: Charge kiting. If you stay inside 10 yards, even just barely, he can't Charge and he can't hit you. If he makes distance, follow him. Done well, it's very frustrating for the Warrior because there's nothing we can do about it.
Heroic Leap: 45 second cooldown, 30 second if glyphed. Expect it to be glyphed. This gives us a targeting reticule and takes us to the targeted location, dealing moderate damage (about 15k crit with no CDs up). The PvP 4 set bonus gives us a 70% speed increase for 3 seconds after using Heroic Leap.
What to Do: Well, the speed increase is usually not too much of an issue because it starts when we press the button. There's usually only 1 second (or nothing) left by the time we land. It's difficult to avoid Heroic Leap, for sure, but it's a lot easier than you might think because it has screwy coding, is subject to player error, and has a fairly long cooldown.
If you think he's going to Heroic Leap, start running. It increases his chance of missing, and if he does HL after that he'll be aiming where you're going, not where you are. Soon as he leaps, start running the other way and he's no better off than when he started.
Intervene: 30 second cooldown. It's just Charge, but to a friendly target instead. This is our most unreliable gap closer, because there's no guarantee a valid, Intervenable target will be near where we want to go. We can drop a War Banner, but the range is limited and we sacrifice a major cooldown.
3. No, we are not anti-caster gods. We have two tools to deal with a freecasting Warlock if we're not in melee range.
Spell Reflection: 25 second cooldown, requires shield, reflects the next spell to hit us within 5 seconds.
What to Do: This has got to be the EASIEST thing to avoid in all of PvP. We slap on a shield, have a giant floating shield over our head for the duration of the buff, and it's easily cheesed. DO NOTE that Spell Reflected spells will ignore resilience. To be honest, I support this because if you get reflected either you just got seriously outplayed or you're retarded and deserve to crit yourself for 250k.
ALSO NOTE that Fel Flame will travel faster than any instant spell you may already have cast, and this will eat the Spell Reflection buff for minimal damage. If you haven't already cast an instant, just stop casting and wait five seconds or let your imp's Firebolt eat the reflect.
FINALLY NOTE that some Warriors will spec for a second Spell Reflection. This one has a 1 minute cooldown, does not require a shield, and will reflect the next spell on not just me but any of my part members. It still only reflects one spell total, and the icon is even more obnoxious than normal Spell Reflection. This talent is uncommon in arenas because Safeguard is better, but you may see it in duels or if the Warrior is switching talents based on enemy comp.
Gag Order on Heroic Throw: Not much to say here. We have a glyph that most everyone takes that gives our one ranged attack interrupt and silence power. 30 second cooldown, 30 yard range, 3 second blanket silence.
What to Do: Not much, since it's our only anticaster defense aside from Spell Reflection which is notoriously terrible. Just keep track of when it's available and bait it out with a big, obvious cast when it's safe to eat a 3 second silence. DO NOTE that it has no extra lockout for a successful interrupt, it's always 3 seconds.
TL;DR: Berserker Rage breaks Fear, prevents reapplication for 6 seconds. 30 second cooldown. Recklessness prevents Fear application for 12 seconds. Stay within 10 yards but farther than 5 to annoy the hell out of him when he wants to Charge. Fel Flame if he Spell Reflects.
NEXT POST WILL BE SPEC-SPECIFIC.
Edited by Jorion on 11/13/2012 8:00 PM PST
On to spec-specific advice.
Of all three specs, Affliction is in the middle against Warriors. It has a decent chance and the fewest overt weaknesses against Warriors, but it can easily be screwed.
Things to remember:
1. He can Spell Reflect Haunt all he likes but it won't matter much if you don't have some of your own DoTs on you.
2. It's really really hard, damn near impossible, to Spell Reflect Soulburn: Soul Swap. Abuse this. Also be aware that it is literally impossible to reflect Malefic Grasp because it is a channel.
3. When he pops his burst, Curse of Exhaustion won't work for 20 seconds because of Avatar. Don't rely on it.
4. Be judicious with Fear. Even if he breaks it, it will still apply Nightmare unless Avatar is also up. If both are up, use Mortal Coil or Shadowfury or call for teammate peels, then run like hell.
5. Affliction is the spec that has the most trouble dealing with Warrior burst, though, so be really really careful and always keep an eye on him.
Tips to try:
1. Mortal Coil into a Fear is usable by all specs, but Nightmare makes it especially obnoxious for Aff and it's an excellent way to pretty much guarantee a trinket AND Berserker Rage.
2. If he uses the oneshot macro (expect him to) he'll be immune to Fear, slows, and roots for 12 seconds, and just slows and roots for a full 20. This is an excellent time to use Mortal Coil and run away spamming DoTs.
3. If he bursts and you can't CC him, SB:SS and hide. You're still doing significant damage to him and he's not hurting you. Abuse DoTs everywhere possible.
4. Not Aff specific, but if you know you're fighting a Warrior, run Grimoire of Sacrifice so they can't build Taste for Blood stacks on your pet, and to help with the "DoT and hide like a !@#$%" strategy. It works.
5. Second Wind and Spell Reflection are issues for Affliction least, because even Corruption will outdamage Second Wind if he tries to hide, and if you can get Corruption/UA/high Agony stacks refreshed on him while he runs away, you will likely kill him even while he's hiding. Also, 95% of Affliction's toolkit isn't realistically reflectable, so take advantage of that.
I would say Demo has by far the best chance of any of the three specs against a Warrior at the moment, to the point where you actually have an advantage.
Things to remember:
1. When you're in Metamorphosis, you have damage reduction equivalent to a Warrior sitting in Defensive Stance with a shield out. Use your tankiness effectively.
2. You can outburst a Warrior, and there's little he can do about it. Fear - MC/SF - all CDs - Chaos Wave x2 will hurt, and Warriors don't have a baseline heal. The only not crappy talented heal is totally passive and only works at 35% or less, so he literally cannot recover from damage spikes.
3. Be mindful of Spell Reflection on Soul Fires. It's a very noticeable cast and an obvious candidate for reflection.
4. Your pet can be a liability. Warrior "oneshots" are a gimmick based on Taste for Blood, an RNG stacking buff that increases Heroic Strike damage by a lot if you get 2+ stacks but has a miniscule chance of stacking at all. To be precise, for every six-second Mortal Strike cycle, there is a .00243 chance of getting to the maximum of 5 stacks (or .24%) and it will take a minimum of 6 globals, which will reset if he hits Mortal Strike again.
This will literally never ever happen to any semicompetent player in an arena setting, BUT the Warrior can kite your pet over behind a pillar and just sit on it for 2-3 minutes waiting until the stars align. This is the ONLY way TfB will ever stack past three.
Be watchful and if you see this happening, call your pet back immediately.
Tips to try:
1. Keep Doom up at all times. It will outdamage Second Wind by itself, and when paired with Corruption and a demon on him, it makes running away to heal pretty much totally nonviable.
2. Once Doom and Corruption are up, have your partner(s) deal with him until you have at least 300-500 Fury, then Mortal Coil/Shadowfury and immediately Fear. He will trinket the MC/SF 9.5 times out of 10 and BR the Fear 9.9/10. If he doesn't trinket, proceed to the next step. Once trinket/BR is down, Fear him and pop everything. With CoEl up, if you pop Imp Swarm, Dark Soul, GoServ (which I recommend you use): Felguard, and your on-use trinket, you can take him down with Chaos Wave - Chaos Wave - Touch of Chaos.
Basically, tank him if you have to because you can do so fairly well, and just outburst him when you know he has to eat it. Demo locks are one of the few classes that can outdamage a Warrior when both stack CDs.
Destruction has the most trouble with a Warrior.
Things to remember:
1. All of your significant damage is Spell Reflectable. Considering how easy it is to kill SR entirely, this shouldn't be too much of an issue, but Chaos Wave, Incinerate, and Immolate are all easily reflectable and Conflagrate isn't too hard to predict.
2. Do not cast Chaos Bolt unless you want to eat it. If you pop everything and hardcast a Chaos Bolt, it will be spell reflected, and you will die because it will do anywhere from 45-60% more damage to you than it would have to him. Remember Spell Reflection ignores resilience.
3. You can legitimately global him if you play well. Chaos Bolt Conflag x2 Shadowburn is a death sentence. Be aware of this and plan accordingly.
Tips to try:
1. Keep two Embers banked (one for Chaos Bolt, one for Shadowburn) and use the other two liberally. Ember Tap is your friend. If you can get 4 Embers built up, you can almost guarantee a kill because he can't Spell Reflect 4 spells.
2. It is extremely easy to bait a Spell Reflection with Chaos Bolt. Many Warriors will panic and hit their macro as soon as your start casting it. The smarter ones will wait til it's almost cast, but either way you're fine. Even if the CB actually fires, a Conflagrate or Fel Flame will hit the Spell Reflection before the Chaos Bolt does.
3. Use Grimoire of Sacrifice with the Voidwalker for the Disarm and so he can't build Taste for Blood stacks on your pet. The best strategy I find is to multidot with Immolate, spam Rain of Fire in the Warrior's general direction, then as soon as his trinket is down Mortal Coil and hardcast Chaos Bolt. Follow it with double conflag and Shadowburn, and grats on your kill.
4. Prior to the burst phase, play it safe. Don't cast an actual Chaos Bolt, just fakecast them to juke Spell Reflections and Gag Orders, and instead put out pressure with Conflag and Incinerate. Remember that if the Warrior tunnels someone else on your team, you can kill him quickly and with extreme prejudice. If he does target you, as he usually will, it means there's significantly less pressure on the rest of your team.
Happy Warrior-hunting, and I hope I helped.
Edited by Jorion on 11/13/2012 8:05 PM PST
Just wanted to say that I feel good... Today went really well, on my grind up to gladiator we got to 2300 3v3. Currently #5 in reckoning behind 1 win trade team (or they went on a major loss streak) and only 100 behind rank 1. I was 2350 before but climbing back up after messing around feels good.
Edited by Malefîcium on 11/13/2012 9:22 PM PST
I would stream 3vs3 more often but my computer gets a little iffy sometimes so I try not to risk it on serious pushes, I prefer recordings really. However if anyone is interested I'm streaming some 2v2 in a moment.
90 Undead Warlock
Yah, you got the problem of 3 teams from Dragonmaw that, from the looks of it, are win trading ;p. Just look a bit down from you, haha.
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