Elemental - This is wrong

90 Draenei Shaman
7695
I'm wondering why we're still not seeing a great deal of commentary from the top brass about the current state of elemental. To me, the Shaman class has been in a tough place for the last few expansions, and with the exception of maybe Restoration, we're still seeing a great deal of bad mechanics that have nothing to do with where we finish on the meters. On a handful of topics, the Shaman is inexplicably coming up short.

Our talents, because they are run through totems, step on one another often. Why would I take Bulwark Totem and Earthgrab Totem? And if I take one of those, am I eliminated from taking Prime Elementalist?

Whats the benefit for Elemental Shaman in taking Frozen Power when choosing it means having to either stop DPSing (since shocks share a CD) or sacrifice survivability? This, in a talent arrangement designed to give players "choice."

For some reason, it appears we have the least amount of Minor Glyphs by at least 2, which is less about game-play and more a highlighter of how little attention we really get. Furthermore, Lakestrider is bugged so badly it actually screws up our casting.

We're still lacking a real defensive skill. Thunderstorm repeatedly misfires, Bulwark was made into a totem, which suggests its powerful enough to be dispelled by all classes - and its not. And Astral Shift does nothing to stop us from getting tunneled.

We're primarily a root/slow class who's only real CC (Hex) still has a CD for no reason, and Bind Elemental which breaks on contact. Our glyphs are nothing but mandatory while too many of the things we need are hidden in glyphs lying outside of the top 3.

As I stated earlier, this isn't about DPS output its about mechanics, and while I wait out these issues, i'll be establishing another character. But what disturbs me the most if that no one from the top has said a word about the Shamans except to say that our DPS specs heal too well (which I've got to say was dumping salt on the wound). Elemental's off-healing is nothing to write home about, let alone that there are other problems that should have eclipsed it.

This is not even to mention the QoL issues that Shaman, far more eloquent than I am, have layed-out and made suggestions to fix (Searing Totem, Unleashed Elements, Ascension/SWG being dispellable), or why our final talent to buff our elementals has them still attached to a totem.

In closing I want to say that while many of the overtuned classes dominate the forums in a desperate attempt to keep their strong abilities, the shaman are struggling with mechanical failures that started way back in the design. That suggests to me either not enough data is coming in from the field, or not enough came in from the Beta. I'm sure many classes have a tier or two that could be improved. In our case, they should be since tier 15 eliminates choices on tier 30. Tier 30 has choices eliminated by your choice of spec, ect. I love what you've done with the new trees, and I expect them to only get better, but you should have sat on them longer, or left the old trees in longer if you didn't know what to put in on some of them, but the intention of these trees (to provide real and viable choice) is not being met.
Edited by Thundahstahm on 11/4/2012 6:12 PM PST
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I can't speak for Enhancement, but Elemental has some of the best mechanics in the game. And Shaman as a class have some of the best designed talents (particularly the lvl 90 talents).

There are some glaring issues in PvP (Frost Shock), but overall Elemental mechanics are far better than other ranged classes, such as:
Hunters - overly reliant on CDs
Mages - zero fun due to lvl 90 talents
Spriests - immobile, dull talents
Moonkin - too many problems to list
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90 Tauren Paladin
0
omg why are you complaing!?!?! Your still wareing greens, your PvP power is ONLY 5% and if you PvE then your WAY off the hit cap. Get full 463+ gear then you are permitted to complain. But you probably wont because you'll notice the difference.
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90 Draenei Shaman
7695
11/04/2012 07:19 PMPosted by Retribultion
omg why are you complaing!?!?! Your still wareing greens, your PvP power is ONLY 5% and if you PvE then your WAY off the hit cap. Get full 463+ gear then you are permitted to complain. But you probably wont because you'll notice the difference.


What do greens have to do with talent-layout negating other choices?
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90 Draenei Shaman
9845
Since moving from my very unfun Mage, to an El Sham, I can appreciate some of the QoL issues this spec has.

~Shocks sharing CD's is archaic as all hell.

If you're afraid of it being too powerful for Restos- tie it in to the spec instead of the class.

After all, the spec is called ELEMENTAL, let's see the masters of elements...be the masters of elements.
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93 Troll Shaman
7785
11/04/2012 07:19 PMPosted by Retribultion
omg why are you complaing!?!?! Your still wareing greens, your PvP power is ONLY 5% and if you PvE then your WAY off the hit cap. Get full 463+ gear then you are permitted to complain. But you probably wont because you'll notice the difference.


Not only are you terrible at spelling, you also completely misunderstood what the OP was talking about. I suggest you work on your basic reading and writing skills if you want to attempt to be understood.
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90 Dwarf Shaman
10330
Since moving from my very unfun Mage, to an El Sham, I can appreciate some of the QoL issues this spec has.

~Shocks sharing CD's is archaic as all hell.

If you're afraid of it being too powerful for Restos- tie it in to the spec instead of the class.

After all, the spec is called ELEMENTAL, let's see the masters of elements...be the masters of elements.


Couldn't agree more on the shocks issue. We need flame shock for Lava Burst, yet Earth Shock is also crucial due to fulmination. Because of how crucial these abilities are, it really makes Frost Shock a big loss to use.

I also agree with much of what the OP has said. To be honest, I am not sure why totems are still restricted to one per element. Seeing as how they function primarily as cooldowns now, I don't see why they are treated differently to other class' abilities. I could see Healing Stream and Healing Tide not being usable at once, but yeah.

Another good point is on Primal Elementalist. Because it locks up one of our totem slots for a minute, it really reduces the strength of the previous Earth totem talents (Earthgrab and Bulwark).

I have to agree with the OP. This class just seems to be behind in terms of design, and needs some attention.

Also: Pretty disappointing to see no changes to the shaman class in the patch =/
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Since moving from my very unfun Mage, to an El Sham, I can appreciate some of the QoL issues this spec has.

~Shocks sharing CD's is archaic as all hell.

If you're afraid of it being too powerful for Restos- tie it in to the spec instead of the class.

After all, the spec is called ELEMENTAL, let's see the masters of elements...be the masters of elements.


That was something I kept suggesting during Beta. Give Elemental something like:

Shock Mastery: Your Shock spells no longer share a cooldown.

There, now Flame Shock and Earth Shock stop stepping over each other's toes, and Frozen Power isn't useless for Elemental anymore. I don't understand why our snare is tied to the cooldown of two core dps spells.

I really like Elemental, but I do think the talent trees are pretty meh. But they remained untouched during Beta, so we're not likely to get any changes now.
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17 Dwarf Monk
5705
If you look at any of the other ranged classes, they all have methods by which they can keep other classes away/off of them. Fear, freezes, snares, horrify effects. Elementals have

- The ability to choose a ranged root, a totem based root or a "freedom" effect. The ranged root requires us to lose much of our DPS ability, including our RNG based instant
- A snare which is replaced by the totem based root if that is chosen
- A knockback which misfires a lot, can be resisted, doesn't send your opponent very far back and only slows them by 40% for 5 seconds, a portion of which occurs as they are flying back from you
- A hex which allows the user freedom to move and is on CD

Removing the shared CDs on shocks would be a good first step, allowing us to take frozen power to root opponents while still being able to keep flame shock up. Unfortunately there's no dispel protection for flame shock. Perhaps a removal of CDs for all shocks is in order? Add DR for frozen power and allow all shocks to be cast at all times? That would keep us from having to always be run-casting LB while waiting for insta-cast lava to proc, and shocks honestly don't do THAT much damage (plus you wouldn't get rolling thunder charges outside of being hit if you didn't cast LB).
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90 Draenei Shaman
9845
11/05/2012 10:53 AMPosted by Scotchfu
and shocks honestly don't do THAT much damage (plus you wouldn't get rolling thunder charges outside of being hit if you didn't cast LB).


Reminds me of what I said after we went outside MV to help a guildy who was being harassed by some Horde, and being prevented from getting inside MV.

GL: "DK ran off after he saw all of you come out of the instance"
Me: "I got him with Flame Shock"
Guildy: "Heh, that'll probably take a good amount of his health"
Me: "Naw, Flame Shock is the short bus of DoTs"
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90 Draenei Shaman
7695
11/05/2012 03:55 PMPosted by Velistova
and shocks honestly don't do THAT much damage (plus you wouldn't get rolling thunder charges outside of being hit if you didn't cast LB).


Reminds me of what I said after we went outside MV to help a guildy who was being harassed by some Horde, and being prevented from getting inside MV.

GL: "DK ran off after he saw all of you come out of the instance"
Me: "I got him with Flame Shock"
Guildy: "Heh, that'll probably take a good amount of his health"
Me: "Naw, Flame Shock is the short bus of DoTs"


Well but thats the thing. Flame Shock isn't about damage. The glyph that (I think its mandatory) drops its initial hit by 90%, and increases its duration. Its ticks are weak and are primarily there to either prevent stealth or trigger the Lava Burst proc. It isn't killing people.

By that mark, why are any shocks sharing a CD. None of them hit hard on their own. But as I mentioned above, Shocks are just one piece of the puzzle.
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100 Tauren Shaman
13905
It's almost of if the devs think this is Vanilla and elemental would be OP with unshared shocks.

BUS SHOCK TIME!
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72 Blood Elf Paladin
7650
I think the first thing could happen are some QoL.

Make Totems have the same global cooldown as Warlock’s curse. The pace in today’s game is super fast. It doesn’t help with Searing Totem being constantly destroy by everything every other second (which needs to be fix as well). I would like to have this Totem down, just because it’s been implanted in my brain for over 7 years now.

Speaking of Searing Totem, can we get a minor glyph that changes Searing Totem into a Serpent Ward that deals nature damage please Blizzard? Thanks in advance.

Since Flametongue Weapon is the main imbued for Elemental, change it to where it also makes Lava Burst deal a 100% critical strike. This would help PvP tremendously, especially with no protection on Flame Shock.

Flame Shock will still be maintained in PvE for Lava Surge procs.

Glyph of Ghost Wolf needs to be baseline.

Unlink the Shock spells. This isn’t Vanilla WoW anymore. Classes have more and more spells/utilities to counter one measly root/snare in today’s game.

-Earth Shock: Will still be used for Fulmination.
-Frost Shock: Lower it’s damage since it’s mostly used in PvP for snare or root.
-Flame Shock: Bake in the glyph of Flame Shock.

I don’t think this would mess up PvE and it will improve Elemental Shaman PvP.
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100 Troll Shaman
18925
Really, we need ONE thread capping saying to remove shock cooldowns for it to ever happen. Thats how mages do it.

Drown them in your tears!
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100 Tauren Shaman
13905
So they increased the CD on Ancestral Swiftness. Yeah, they really must think we're OK then.
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90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
I can't speak for Enhancement, but Elemental has some of the best mechanics in the game. And Shaman as a class have some of the best designed talents (particularly the lvl 90 talents).

There are some glaring issues in PvP (Frost Shock), but overall Elemental mechanics are far better than other ranged classes, such as:
Hunters - overly reliant on CDs
Mages - zero fun due to lvl 90 talents
Spriests - immobile, dull talents
Moonkin - too many problems to list


*Sheds a tear* You're not even a Mage and you still hit the nail on the head...

T-thank you... <3

(PS: It's more than just fun; they restrict our mobility)
Edited by Pewpewblast on 11/7/2012 8:31 PM PST
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87 Draenei Shaman
5335
Shared shock CD is there to add depth to elemental. Currently you have to make a judgment call on when to use them precisely so the situation where you have 7 charges of lightning shield and lava burst up doesn't happen.

Frost shock isn't part of the DPS rotation, is not a DPS increase and should be on a separate CD from the other two though.

I think the first thing could happen are some QoL.

Make Totems have the same global cooldown as Warlock’s curse. The pace in today’s game is super fast. It doesn’t help with Searing Totem being constantly destroy by everything every other second (which needs to be fix as well). I would like to have this Totem down, just because it’s been implanted in my brain for over 7 years now.


Totems do have a 1 second GCD. They have had it since sometime in early BC.
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90 Human Monk
10330
The issue with shared shocks comes in more in PvP than PvE. Taking Frost shock off the cooldown alone would be a nice start, though.

As mentioned, it'd be nice if the one totem/element restriction was done away with as well. It causes a great deal of conflict between many talents / abilities, and really doesn't add any depth. If totems are now regular cooldown / utility abilities, as opposed to buffs, then I don't see why the limit still exists.

As a sidenote: I can see certain totems not stacking, like HST / HTT.
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100 Dwarf Hunter
18040
My suggestion for shamans in general. Remove shock spells shared cooldowns.
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90 Human Paladin
8055
Since moving from my very unfun Mage, to an El Sham, I can appreciate some of the QoL issues this spec has.

~Shocks sharing CD's is archaic as all hell.

If you're afraid of it being too powerful for Restos- tie it in to the spec instead of the class.

After all, the spec is called ELEMENTAL, let's see the masters of elements...be the masters of elements.


That was something I kept suggesting during Beta. Give Elemental something like:

Shock Mastery: Your Shock spells no longer share a cooldown.

There, now Flame Shock and Earth Shock stop stepping over each other's toes, and Frozen Power isn't useless for Elemental anymore. I don't understand why our snare is tied to the cooldown of two core dps spells.

I really like Elemental, but I do think the talent trees are pretty meh. But they remained untouched during Beta, so we're not likely to get any changes now.


The thought process was likely "Well, do you want damage or do you want a
mega-slow/snare? The player has to make that choice!"
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