What is acceptable DPS in Mogu'shan Vaults?

55 Human Death Knight
11850
We were three healing. Going to attempt to two heal this week. And that's their dps pretty consistently on the first three bosses. I've heard the first couple of bosses are not hunter friendly but, does that apply to the DK and rogue as well? Our two other dps and our stand in dps are all 60k+ but, I know it's not as simple as that. As much as would love to offer logs or armories, people might get upset. I'm just a healer that desperately wants to help our group succeed together.

Definitely going to bring up spirit realm downtime and see if keeping the hunter out improves any. And I'll take this thread to the raid leader and see if we can work on bumping up their overall dps. The feedback he is getting after approaching them about it is that 'dps is where it needs to be' which just didn't sound right. I'm looking for logs and doing research myself (EJ, noxxic, armory, world of logs, icy veins - if there's a better place please let me know) on the specs to figure out what is going on and think I have found a few things to bring up to them. Hopefully they'll consider it this time.

Melix brought up a good point. Does anyone know if it is possible to ignore the last totem with two healing? Our healers seem strong, but the whole prospect of going in to a long burn 20-0% sounds scary.

Again, thank you for all the feedback.
Edited by Vallise on 11/13/2012 2:51 PM PST
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90 Goblin Priest
6755
11/13/2012 10:21 AMPosted by Vallise
Apologizes for posting on an alt, but this is a sensitive issue. What dps should be acceptable to raid in MoP? We currently have three dps (hunter, rogue, DK) pulling around 30-35k and feel it is hurting our attempts on the third boss (we're hitting the enrage timer before 20%). However, after talking to one of them, they say that their dps is in the right place for their ilvl (471). I don't normally dps and don't want to push the issue without proof so any help (especially if someone had logs for someone with similar ilvl on the same job) would be greatly appreciated.


Unless the dk is in half greens or something he is terrible. A decent dk can top the meters and 30-35k is not acceptable. He should pull at least 40k at the minimal. Same with the rogue even tho there not nearly as good as dks right now. If the hunter is MM then hes the wrong spec and should go bm. Hunters are not in the best spot right now but even still his numbers seem a little low. The biggest issue is the Dk, either figure out what he is doing wrong or just find a better dps.
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90 Goblin Priest
6755
11/13/2012 10:21 AMPosted by Vallise
Apologizes for posting on an alt, but this is a sensitive issue. What dps should be acceptable to raid in MoP? We currently have three dps (hunter, rogue, DK) pulling around 30-35k and feel it is hurting our attempts on the third boss (we're hitting the enrage timer before 20%). However, after talking to one of them, they say that their dps is in the right place for their ilvl (471). I don't normally dps and don't want to push the issue without proof so any help (especially if someone had logs for someone with similar ilvl on the same job) would be greatly appreciated.


Do you guys run logs at all?
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55 Human Death Knight
11850
(Sorry for the deleted post. I'm a forum noob that just learned how to quote.)

11/13/2012 02:25 PMPosted by Sub
You do know that meters don't work on Gara'Jal, right? The only person who knows their DPS is the person running the meter. Everyone needs to individually post their meters if you want to find actual DPS.


Is this the case? We compared meters after the raid was over and they matched up really well on a fight by fight basis. Their dps is about the same on the first two bosses, but we weren't hitting enrage timers on those so it wasn't much of an issue before.
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55 Human Death Knight
11850
I sometimes run logs to reevaluate my healing, but they're set to private and it would just be a bad idea to show anything with names. Really wish I could.

The hunter is survival / bm and they are all ilvl 471 or above. Honestly, we're ok with non-optimal dps as we are more a casual guild that has fun times together. We're just hitting a major wall (the enrage timer) on this boss and it is starting to get to people. And, as they say, the first step to fixing a problem is admitting there is a problem. Or in my case, confirming there is a problem and then hopefully getting people on the same page to work on it.

So, essentially I'm asking: Is our dps too low? (seems to be yes and thanks for the tips on totem mechanics) and What dps does everyone need to bring in order to defeat this boss (and then elegon)? From that we can hopefully work within the guild to bring it up. We have some good dps willing to help, but they are being shot down at the moment.
Edited by Vallise on 11/13/2012 3:27 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Hunter
12965
Yes you can 2 heal and ignore last two sets of totems acutally, Its how we do. Just makes me pucker up each time :P/

hunters do fine down below, have him go down every other time or so and save his first stampede for his first Spirt Trip, the little pets kick the snot outta the adds and he can pop out quickly.

As far as DPS goes, what is there DPS on the first 2 fights, if its 30k yeah problem, if not then as said its just a meter thing on that boss.

Good Luck
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90 Dwarf Priest
0
I haven't seen our hunter pull over 35k but hes the only one below 50k on this boss. I usually tank as my DK but don't drop below 55k on most fights when I DPS and my ilevel is 465. This fight should be 2 healed though, so if you have 3 healers address that first. We wiped for a day on this before replacing the lowest dps for the next weeks attempt and one shotted him, so a quiet word in their ear and a link to noxxic might be in order.
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90 Pandaren Monk
6910
I'm a 471 ilvl WW monk and I pull around 56K on bosses that I have at least 95% uptime on and cannot steal their weapon. Closer to 6K on fights like Feng where you can use ToK for DPS and steal weapons.
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90 Orc Shaman
7705
I sometimes run logs to reevaluate my healing, but they're set to private and it would just be a bad idea to show anything with names. Really wish I could.

The hunter is survival / bm and they are all ilvl 471 or above. Honestly, we're ok with non-optimal dps as we are more a casual guild that has fun times together. We're just hitting a major wall (the enrage timer) on this boss and it is starting to get to people. And, as they say, the first step to fixing a problem is admitting there is a problem. Or in my case, confirming there is a problem and then hopefully getting people on the same page to work on it.

So, essentially I'm asking: Is our dps too low? (seems to be yes and thanks for the tips on totem mechanics) and What dps does everyone need to bring in order to defeat this boss (and then elegon)? From that we can hopefully work within the guild to bring it up. We have some good dps willing to help, but they are being shot down at the moment.


Yes, it does sound low. We had a similar issue on gara'jal, but we got him down by making sure everyone stepped up their game. Make sure you are two healing. Make sure the totems are abused. Make sure you pop bloodlust at 20%.

That said, numbers can sometimes be deceiving, and on Gara they are a little bit. Mechanics must be proper, and everyone should pop cooldowns early and burn him down. Everyone should stack on his butt for AoE healing. Etc. Mechanics are very important in MV.
Edited by Axon on 11/14/2012 3:16 PM PST
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85 Blood Elf Mage
14870
To clarify, the hunter is survival / bm if that helps and the three of them need only worry about dpsing the boss. Everyone is 471 ilvl or higher. We put 2 dps in to the spirit realm at all times and will be dropping a healer for a dps next attempt. Everyone is really concerned that we won't burn past the 20% mark in enough time to two heal with our current progress (we hit enrage at around 40% with current dps, 19% with another dps replacing the DK). I'm also not looking for super amazing dps (though those numbers look reasonable), just a passable amount for dps check bosses.

Though is there another dps issue with the totems that might help us? Dps doesn't seem to go up much if any for that boss somehow even with dps rotating out.


You should be swapping dps around the spirit realm. They get a dps increase when they come out. Also, It's almost manditory to 2heal unless your DPS is extraordinary.

I still think your dps are lacking for 470+ ilvl. my DK pulls over 40k and is 455-460 ilvl or somewhere around there. They need to step up their game to be quite honest.
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100 Worgen Mage
13685
3
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90 Orc Hunter
7820
11/13/2012 10:21 AMPosted by Vallise
Apologizes for posting on an alt, but this is a sensitive issue. What dps should be acceptable to raid in MoP? We currently have three dps (hunter, rogue, DK) pulling around 30-35k and feel it is hurting our attempts on the third boss (we're hitting the enrage timer before 20%). However, after talking to one of them, they say that their dps is in the right place for their ilvl (471). I don't normally dps and don't want to push the issue without proof so any help (especially if someone had logs for someone with similar ilvl on the same job) would be greatly appreciated.


I was doing 50k DPS at that ilvl. I was BM. On most fights survival would be a little lower. If he's MM...then he shouldn't be. I like all of the hunter specs and have played them all. Right now, MM is just broken and really shouldn't be used.
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7 Gnome Rogue
0
30-35k seems real low even if your melee class an cant always be on target.
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100 Undead Priest
10715
Any DPS should be able to pull 50k+ DPS on Feng, so long as they are in 463+ gear and all the other details are properly taken care of. A person who is unable to do this is going to hinder you on pretty much every boss encounter for the rest of this expansion, so if one of your raiders is not doing this currently then tell them to learn how to do this (and there are plenty of guides for everyone with just a little bit of help from google).

This isn't an impossible feat, it simply requires effort to pull it off. The game is designed that any DPS class/spec can walk in with heroic level gear to the first raid and pull off the necessary DPS to down all the bosses. The only thing stopping people from doing this are mechanics and performance issues.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
13740
11/13/2012 02:59 PMPosted by Vallise
Is this the case? We compared meters after the raid was over and they matched up really well on a fight by fight basis. Their dps is about the same on the first two bosses, but we weren't hitting enrage timers on those so it wasn't much of an issue before.


If you raided in Dragon Soul, you should already know what's going on.

Anytime a fight has multiple realms/phases, recount will not be able to gather data from raid members not in the same realm/phase as you.

example, Players 1, 2, and 3 head into the spirit realm to kill adds. For players 4 through 10 and their recount meters, it's basically like the 3 spirit realm players just started standing there doing 0 dps. Their dps will still fall b/c 500k damage over 1 min is higher than 500k damage over 1 min 30 secs. Meanwhile, since only the first 3 players in the spirit realm, on their recount meters, the exact same thing will be happening to the 7 guys staying outside the raid.

In the end, what you get are meters that record 100% of the fight for the person who's account it's on, but only 70-80% of the fight for all the other raid members(because of the little blackout periods anytime they are not in the same realm/phase as you).

Each person has to post their own personal meters at the end of the fight and compare them against each other, they can't just compare straight from their own recount parse.
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100 Gnome Warlock
12815
You're never going to get a good answer on the forums. What I would do is look at WorldofLogs and compare your guild to comparable guilds on the same fights.

ALSO, the best part of Worldoflogs is that you can see what your guildy isn't doing, that other better players are. I use it all the time for this to make myself better. As a lock I can say "Look this lock here is getting way more damage out of his Agony dot than I am, what am I doing wrong?" and figure it out from there. I do way more DPS than somebody my gear lvl usually does, the reason is I review my rotation and work to improve it after every raid. It's the only way to get better.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
8050
Ok, so I did some digging, and I'm not going to name any names, but here goes:

Rogue: using two daggers in combat spec (may just have logged out wrong), 2% over expertise cap, 2% over hit cap, gemmed/forged/enchanted for hit and expertise; something wrong with his rotation, or just using daggers---damage dispensation is all over the map.

Hunter: Horrible, horrible uptime on black arrow. Yes, I see the trap: BA>>Explosive trap on a single target. Well itemized and forged, expect this to be a rotation issue.

Death knight: (there are two on the source I'm looking at, the one I'm talking about starts with an A) Well itemized and enchanted, but I can't make jack diddly out of those reforges. Reforging out of haste/exp/mast to exp/hit/mast/haste?? Also, no belt buckle. Not using execute correctly (yes, I know it's hard as frost, should come up right more than 3x in spirit kings).

Also, @spriest---Power torrent? Da faq? Needs to prioritize mind blast more, he's getting off about 2/3rds of the possibles. Should also consider glyph of Mind Spike since he's using FDCL.
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90 Goblin Rogue
8055
the rogue should be pulling 60k. At 471 I was pulling around 60k on the 3rd boss. At 478 I'm pulling about 67k on 3rd boss. This is as a combat rogue. Assasination is actually a bit higher but I havn't gotten a second dagger to try it.
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