Hunter Mortal Strike

90 Dwarf Hunter
14590
The issue I am going to bring up is on hunter's mortal strike effect, it compared to other classes, and ways it can be improved.

It all started with the Aimed Shot change. Aimed Shot was the hunter's MS in WotLK and was later changed to Widow Venom because Aimed Shot was going to be a MM exclusive ability. Aimed Shot was the same as Warriors and Monks MS today, a core ability that does damage. This would change with Widow Venom introduced.

Widow Venom is the result of the failed venom system back in Cataclysm beta. While it seemed like the old sting system in Wrath of the Lich King, it was eventually removed. They kept Widow Venom as the last remaining venom and haven't altered it since.

Widow Venom is not like other mortal strikes. Warriors and Monks have theirs tied to a main ability. Rogues have their MS passively, with Wound Poison. Now we get to hunters and their MS. Widow Venom is an ability that costs 15 focus, does no damage and is on the gcd.

Some may say, 15 focus isn't that bad right? If the debuff wasn't a 10 second duration and on gcd that might be the case. If you want to have a 100% up time on the debuff it results in 90 focus lost per minute. That means hunters lose 2 Chimera's/Kill Command's (and about 2 AiS), about 4 Arcane/Explosive Shots, 4.5 Tranqs or a combination of all of them per minute.

Focus is a resource that doesn't just come passively, like energy. Hunters have to cast to get focus as well. That is why it isn't a fair argument comparing an energy costing interrupt to Widow Venom. Hunters lose a lot of their resource keeping Widow Venom up, when other classes essentially get it for free.

So how can Widow Venom be improved? There have been many ways suggested to fix this issue. Widow Venom could be changed into a passive. The passive would act just like the Marked for Death Glyph (Chimera Shot, Explosive Shot, Arcane Shot and Kill Command apply it). On the other hand, the passive could be that autoshot now applies Widow Venom.

If the ability itself doesn't change, there are others ways to alter its effect. As much as some hunters like our PvP glove bonus (2 seconds off Trap CD), it could be changed to effect Widow Venom instead. The glove bonus could be that your Arcane Shot now applies Widow Venom. Since all hunter specs use Arcane Shot, it would be the most logical choice without making the bonus too wordy.

A last resort idea would be removing Widow Venom entirely. With a MS gone, hunter damage could be tuned like classes that don't have one.

So that leaves it to everyone else. What are your thoughts on Widow Venom?
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95 Draenei Hunter
13375
Easiest would be to have Arcane Shot apply it. Since the Venom system no longer exists, might as well move it back to it being applied by something.
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90 Dwarf Hunter
14590
Yeah Arcane would make the most sence. Some hunters think that combining Widow Vemon with Serpent Sting is a good idea but SV is the only spec in pvp that has ~100% uptime. Serpent Sting damage is just weak for the other specs without an incentive and it breaks CC for hunters. Not to mention if they combined the buffs our MS would most likely be dispelable (like in early Cata).
Edited by Nyess on 11/13/2012 1:32 PM PST
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100 Troll Hunter
16065
Apply it to Serpent Sting.
Yes, I am aware of what that means for SV.

Edit: This gives it a little more use for MM/BM that what they otherwise get out of just SerpS
Edited by Verdash on 11/13/2012 2:49 PM PST
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90 Worgen Warrior
4770
i think the healing debuff should be looked at in general.

if it has gotten to the point where it people believe it should be included as a matter of convenience into regular dps rotations, the debuff itself begins to lose its meaning.

why not just reduce healing across the board, remove the debuff (widow venom included), and be done with it.

of course i think that other unique bonuses should be tacked onto abilities such as mortal strike. to preserve the sense of class flavor they have instilled.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
12805
11/13/2012 02:49 PMPosted by Bándet
Well maybe they could make Serpent Sting scale with weapon damage (Like they said they would do in MoP).


And with Explosive Shot too, but apparently the power generated from George Santayana (and his quote about the past) spinning in his grave was running low, so we needed to juice things up a little.

Honestly, this reminds me of my guild-leader's occasional suggestion in the Vaults when we're doing the Guardians that 'If you have a DoT, use it on all three'... I think to myself, 'Oh, sure, the 16k damage I do is TOTALLY worth that GCD.' And the less thought about Black Arrow, or gods help us, Explosive Trap, the better...

11/13/2012 01:04 PMPosted by Spärt
Easiest would be to have Arcane Shot apply it. Since the Venom system no longer exists, might as well move it back to it being applied by something.


In all fairness, there IS Devilsaurs and their Monstrous Bite... assuming anybody's going to play BM in Arena/rated Battlegrounds come 5.1, anyway. But, still.

Again, honestly, the whole concept of Widow Venom being its own 'special snowflake' of crap's been brought up tons of times, but nobody seems to be listening. Much like a lot of things...
Edited by Kithellia on 11/13/2012 3:26 PM PST
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90 Dwarf Hunter
14590
One thing I found funny is that a TotH Multi Shot (with Serpent Spread) costs less than Serpent Sting. Its really should cost around 10-15 focus.

Another issue would be duration. Serpent Sting lasts 15 secs when WV is 10 secs (this is if they were separate debuffs). The duration of WV would have to match SS.

I still think the biggest issue with SS applying Widow Venom is it being dispelled. Having to recast a 25 focus SS would make us in a worse situation.

11/13/2012 03:25 PMPosted by Kithellia
In all fairness, there IS Devilsaurs and their Monstrous Bite... assuming anybody's going to play BM in Arena/rated Battlegrounds come 5.1, anyway. But, still.


Yeah that is even one more benefit to being BM, even though 99% of BM hunters are using spirit beasts for its heal. I'm sure blizzard could think of a different exotic ability for Devilsaurs (cast slowing maybe).
Edited by Nyess on 11/13/2012 3:43 PM PST
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100 Goblin Warlock
16865
Some classes have to apply snares on their own and some do it passively. I guess I should demand that MG snares since MF does? As affliction if I want to snare I have to 1) lose a curse slot or 2) waste a fear which is still a short duration snare. I mean hell frost mages snare in their normal rotation why can't affliction?

Point is while on the blind vs scatter I don't think different classes are different, it does apply here. There's nothing wrong with Widow except maybe the focus cost. Bring it to 5, but there's no reason you need it passively applied.

Edit:

Hell I'd even sooner be all for making it a 1-1.5 min cd that is stronger than ms instead which would be a buff. Make it a 50% reduction on a 1.5 min cd and keep the 15 focus cost.
Edited by Purebalance on 11/13/2012 3:56 PM PST
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1 Blood Elf Rogue
0

Hell I'd even sooner be all for making it a 1-1.5 min cd that is stronger than ms instead which would be a buff. Make it a 50% reduction on a 1.5 min cd and keep the 15 focus cost.


I like this idea more. I really don't like the way the healing debuff right now is just essentially a passive debuff you bring with your team. Making it more active rather than less seems like a better solution.
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90 Orc Shaman
20765
@the lock above: hunters have to cast Concussive Shot to apply snares, which again has a GCD and does 0 damage and lasts only 6 sec.

Every other MS is tied to a damaging ability, even when casters had it, except hunters. It's just a bad implementation that forces hunters to waste GCD and focus 6 times a minute if they want to keep it up unlike every other MS. It needs to be added to Arcane Shot seeing how hunters have so many new GCDs added in MoP when they were already probably the class with most PVP keybinds.
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100 Goblin Warlock
16865
It's a 30 second duration so where is this 6 times a minute.

Also you just proved my point by saying hunters have to conc shot. Frost Mages(or any who use frost bomb) and shadow priests passive snare with their normal abilities. Ferals, guardians, brewmasters, and rogues passively snare. Pallies and dks can spec into a passive snare. Locks, warriors, shamans, balance and hunters have to specifically apply a snare. Different classes are different.

Should the 8 other classes complain they don't have an MS baseline?

Once again I'm all for turninng into a stronger version same duration on a cd that's 3x the duration which still isn't bad for 30 sec, but no, we have enough passive bs going around.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
10310
11/13/2012 05:19 PMPosted by Purebalance
It's a 30 second duration so where is this 6 times a minute.


yeah! and I bet those healers are really mad when I scatter trap them and it lasts a full minute! /sarcasm off

It lasts 10 seconds in PvP, just tested on a paladin friend. 1 minute = 60 seconds, 60/10= 6 applications. 6x 15 focus = 90 focus over 1 minute.

11/13/2012 05:19 PMPosted by Purebalance
Should the 8 other classes complain they don't have an MS baseline?


No, but we do have it and we aren't arguing that it isn't fair that others have it. We are arguing that we are one of three classes to provide the MS Debuff, yet we are the only ones whose MS ability has a no damage applied to it, therefore making it VERY cost ineffective, as well as it not being one of our truly major abilities.

I would be fine with MS on Widow Venom is warriors and rogues magically got an ability called "Rage/Energy Consumer 5000" and it cost them 15 Rage/Energy to apply it, that would be perfectly cool because it would be balanced.

However, as I said before, we must apply it at the cost of roughly 1/7th of our focus bar (a Glaive Tosses worth to be exact), where as none of the other MS classes have so.

We're merely asking for equal treatment.

P.S. - I don't mean to be rude, but please do some research before you post. And don't pretend you're on some mission to tell us how wrong we are and that different classes are different, blah blah, because it's nonsense at this point.
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90 Orc Shaman
20765
It's a 30 second duration so where is this 6 times a minute.
10 sec duration in PVP. The more you know.

11/13/2012 05:19 PMPosted by Purebalance
Should the 8 other classes complain they don't have an MS baseline?
Do you see us complaining about what other 8 classes have? No, we're asking about the same ability we share with other 2 classes.
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97 Dwarf Hunter
17020
Just remove the focus cost imo. Being able to use it whenever you want at a range justifies it using a GCD, but the focus cost is just way to much.
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71 Blood Elf Mage
9040
11/13/2012 05:36 PMPosted by Livandria
P.S. - I don't mean to be rude, but please do some research before you post. And don't pretend you're on some mission to tell us how wrong we are and that different classes are different, blah blah, because it's nonsense at this point.


You have to excuse Purebalance. Their ultimate excitement in life, it seems, is attempting to kick hunters as far down as possible, then trying to keep them there.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
10730
11/13/2012 08:52 PMPosted by Spinnerdh
Just remove the focus cost imo. Being able to use it whenever you want at a range justifies it using a GCD, but the focus cost is just way to much.


I'm not sure it warrants a GCD considering most other classes get to apply the debuff as part of their normal "rotation". And besides, Hunters desperately need some ability consolidation, and widow venom is a prime candidate for that.
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100 Undead Warrior
11305
11/13/2012 05:36 PMPosted by Livandria
I would be fine with MS on Widow Venom is warriors and rogues magically got an ability called "Rage/Energy Consumer 5000"


You mean like heroic strike, execute, slam, etc? You know, 30 rage attacks that do nothing except damage?
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100 Goblin Warlock
16865
11/13/2012 05:36 PMPosted by Livandria
It's a 30 second duration so where is this 6 times a minute.


yeah! and I bet those healers are really mad when I scatter trap them and it lasts a full minute! /sarcasm off

It lasts 10 seconds in PvP, just tested on a paladin friend. 1 minute = 60 seconds, 60/10= 6 applications. 6x 15 focus = 90 focus over 1 minute.

Should the 8 other classes complain they don't have an MS baseline?


No, but we do have it and we aren't arguing that it isn't fair that others have it. We are arguing that we are one of three classes to provide the MS Debuff, yet we are the only ones whose MS ability has a no damage applied to it, therefore making it VERY cost ineffective, as well as it not being one of our truly major abilities.

I would be fine with MS on Widow Venom is warriors and rogues magically got an ability called "Rage/Energy Consumer 5000" and it cost them 15 Rage/Energy to apply it, that would be perfectly cool because it would be balanced.

However, as I said before, we must apply it at the cost of roughly 1/7th of our focus bar (a Glaive Tosses worth to be exact), where as none of the other MS classes have so.

We're merely asking for equal treatment.

P.S. - I don't mean to be rude, but please do some research before you post. And don't pretend you're on some mission to tell us how wrong we are and that different classes are different, blah blah, because it's nonsense at this point.


It's not equal treatment. It's they have something you want.

Rogues have a cost to use theirs. It's called either a talent point or a snare. Why are you ignoring that? I'd be just fine with a talent that made it linked to an attack if that's all it did. How bout you do your research before YOU post? One spec of warrior gets a free MS tied to their main attack.

Technically as it was said earlier BM hunters have the option to do a free MS. Weird 1 spec of warrior and 1 spec of hunter have a free MS.

Explain that without saying "well we lose xxxx"
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100 Goblin Warlock
16865
11/13/2012 08:59 PMPosted by Guapísima
You have to excuse Purebalance. Their ultimate excitement in life, it seems, is attempting to kick hunters as far down as possible, then trying to keep them there.


Or more like terrible hunters who try to buff the wrong things in the wrong way. But you know people like you with me me me attitudes will ignore common sense when it whacks you in the face. Like I said the person you quoted was wrong in even saying rogues get a free MS.

So yeah let's hear some more "QQ steady shot needs to hurt!" or "QQ we're the only ones who can't apply an MS with no cost even though we aren't" because both are something bad hunters say.

Perhaps if something realistic and worthwhile was mentioned it wouldn't be deemed as QQ. But really show me where I said "NO BUFFS FOR HUNTERS MUAHAHAHAHAHA" since in this very thread I stated what would be a buff and a strong ability.
Edited by Purebalance on 11/14/2012 4:53 AM PST
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