hmm?

90 Blood Elf Warlock
11400
11/05/2012 09:28 PMPosted by Enhancement
I do think the issue for some people is not having access to crafting patterns, Rose. I can see how that would feel awful on multiple alts. But, with that said, wanting all the crafting pattens on alts (or even just wanting the Rep epics) is a personal player preference. It should be fairly clear to someone seeking particular rewards what the effort required to get that reward is.


For patterns sure. But the alternative is just maybe going to a guildie. Or someone on your server. See if someone else has the pattern. If you bring the mats most of the time people won't even charge you. ( Although always tip your tailors and enchanters. Pretty please. I need gold for mounts )
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95 Draenei Hunter
11610
It just occurred to me, all these issues are PVE related. Lock the conquest gear behind a rep grind and the PVPers would be assaulting Blizz headquarters tonight... Food for thought.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
15205
It is up to the CM, not the players, to set the standard when it comes to meaningful debate and conversation. Showing otherwise further condones bad behaviour and meaningless posts in this thread and others all over general.


I see this completely differently. Blizzard is talking to (and I hate to admit it) a very imature audience. Every representative you see on the forums is also a player, they talk to you as a player, not just a person who works for a large corporation.

The threads they respond to are not written professionally, most aren't even well thought out. If they try to act like a bunch of stiff suit businessmen, it really wouldn't fit the general player base of a game.

He didn't even get snarky or mean, he merely pointed out that the OP contradicted himself.


He was in his first post, that much can't be denied. He should show a certain professionalism when it does come to forum posts, even if they want to address the subject with their own personal views.

There was a famous Blue poster many years ago (who will remain unnamed) that acted in a very similar way to the CM in this thread, belittling and condescending, and as such was generally disliked by the community. He and his posts are still talked about to this day when the wow forums are mentioned, it just shows how small blue posts, when not properly thought out, can conjure anger in the community and still be remember years later.

I think the blue should just show a little restraint sometimes when referring to posters who maybe don't think their posts through enough (as is very common on all forums).
I understand he is human and like all humans are prone to bouts of red mist and such, but I think making a habit of it (and showing that you are setting that type of language as a standard) is a bad idea is all
Edited by Zavala on 11/5/2012 9:31 PM PST
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90 Undead Warlock
9255
11/05/2012 09:30 PMPosted by Rangikuu
It just occurred to me, all these issues are PVE related. Lock the conquest gear behind a rep grind and the PVPers would be assaulting Blizz headquarters tonight... Food for thought.


You mean like Arena Ratings?
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I don't base my progress or enjoyment on the mega sponsored guilds. I'm not that good. I never will be. I wish I was, but I'm not. I'm ok with that. What I do base my progress on is how much of what is presented I can personally attain. The thing is, pushing for that progress is a chore, not enjoyment. I feel that I'm forced, whether you (not you personally, but the entity you represent as a whole) agree with it being forced or not, to max out everything that I can before I can enjoy what I want. I like doing heroic 5 mans. I prefer doing them over dailies. But I also prefer to do them in something other than iLvl 450 quest gear, or 458 JP gear. And if I force myself to grind out the reps, I'll be able to get something more than 458 JP, or 463 heroic gear. And once I have that I'll be able to enjoy running dungeons. As long as I don't have the VP gear, or the rep to get the VP gear once I get the VP, then I feel like I'm not accomplishing anything, and it's not fun at all.

My ideal game would be logging in, running dungeon after dungeon after dungeon gathering points and then spending those points to get better gear. Not just slightly better gear though. Not gear that is actually worse than what I might get from those dungeons. I want my JP gear to be on par with what dungeons drop, and I want my valor gear to be superior, and I want to be able to earn that VP gear without grinding rep first. If I grind the points in dungeons, I should be able to use them. That is what I want to do. Get points, and spend them. Not get points, grind rep outside of dungeons, and then spend those points to get something to go back into the dungeons.


Very much this. I may be extremely casual, but I still like to progress my character. That's the whole point of the RPG genre, MMO or otherwise. And for so long as I've played this game, my main means of progression has been valor points (or emblems before that). It's what I enjoy. I prefer having a clear goal to work towards over praying to the RNG gods.

Blizzard may say they didn't intend points to be a primary method of progression, but they have been for years now. It's far, far too late to put that genie back in the bottle.

Now, I have to either grind an eternity of dailies I don't enjoy (Seriously, where's the creativity and passion that went into the Molten Front?) or lose my main means of progression. I can choose not to do the dailies, yes, and that's exactly what I've done, but now, I effectively have no endgame.

A choice where one option only results in my being punished is not really a choice. It's an ultimatum.

There's a lot I love about the MoP endgame -- scenarios, the quick and painless heroics, LFR -- and this could be the best expansion ever if I could play the way I want to. In a perfect world, I could just spam heroics and scenarios like I want to, doing some Tillers dailies during queues (because those are actually fun), and do some LFR runs on the side, and be able to spend my valor. But Blizzard says I can't do that. An endgame where I'm a slave to RNG and my valor points collect dust is no fun to me, but neither is an endgame where I need to grind countless boring dailies with too much mob competition and low drop rates on every single one of my alts.

So I've got nothing to do now.

As for the OP, I don't see the luckydos as a big issue because I don't find them essential enough, but I will agree that it's a little counter-intuitive that a raid currency only comes from solo content.
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
11400
11/05/2012 09:30 PMPosted by Rangikuu
It just occurred to me, all these issues are PVE related. Lock the conquest gear behind a rep grind and the PVPers would be assaulting Blizz headquarters tonight... Food for thought.


You could sneeze and the pvp players would get mad
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95 Draenei Hunter
11610
11/05/2012 09:31 PMPosted by Infernalist
It just occurred to me, all these issues are PVE related. Lock the conquest gear behind a rep grind and the PVPers would be assaulting Blizz headquarters tonight... Food for thought.


You mean like Arena Ratings?


Directly related to what that style of player wants.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
0

Blizzard needs to accept that that is how a very large parentage of players are going to feel then, regardless of their intents, and work to make sure that those players are not overburdened by what blizzard provides even with the best of intentions. No amount of saying dailies aren't required for raids is going to change the fact that most of us will find that they are very much a requirement with the way things are currently set up, and maybe blizzard should make some changes to make sure that we don't feel QUITE so negatively about a system that was supposed to be a positive.


Hey, I mean, I get what you're saying. Trust me. It's just that, regardless of what large percentage of players truly and honestly feel like they're forced to do all this stuff, those players are still misunderstanding the way the systems are designed. And Blizzard can't really correct that for them. People barely even bother to read quest text, they're certainly not going to read a comprehensive explanation of why certain progression paths (i.e. dailies) are not necessary for raid success.

If a player's personality drives him/her to find every edge in raiding (or PvP, or whatever), that player is going to use every method of progression whether there are 3 sources of upgrades or 50 sources of upgrades. This is why players who hate LFR still run LFR as soon as they hit 90. This is why people who are legitimately and honestly sick of dailies still do a full slate on every alt. Because the option is there, and they take every bite of the apple that they can.

Blizzard has tried a myriad of ways, to put it crudely, of saving players from themselves. They had a cap on daily quests once. They had a limit of one rep-rewarding heroic per dungeon per day once. Those things are gone now, and Blizzard had reasons for moving the game forward, and that's fine.


Players wanted the cap gone because it was preventing them from doing the extra dailies they wanted, ones that were fully optional from a raiding perspective. This especially meant from old expansions, like for example doing netherwing while still doing your raid-related firelands dailies in cata.

Turns out, the cap was actually the only thing protecting us from blizzard inundating us with raid-relevant dailies. With the cap, they never gave us over 25 dailies related (by rewards) to raiding, the moment it was gone? 50+.

These progression paths ARE necessary for raid success, being defined as clearing raid content at the earliest time possible with the fewest failures possible. Blizzard needs to understand that our player-designed systems are not only valid, but more valid than whatever blizzard itself wants for players, and they need to design content with those systems in mind so long as they exist.
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90 Undead Warlock
9255
11/05/2012 09:32 PMPosted by Rangikuu


You mean like Arena Ratings?


Directly related to what that style of player wants.


you're pretty good at dragging goal posts.
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85 Undead Rogue
8380
People complain about lack of content.

Look at all the dailies. Do a set or two of dailies each day, run a few dungeons, maybe a raid, and that's quite a few hours. Keep the dailies down to a couple sets, and you can easily get your 90 weekly coins and have enough content to last you a couple months. Add in other things like pet battles and that's a ton more.


Not once did I say there was a lack of content during Cata. Not a single time.

And if I only do a set or two of dailies each day, it will be the end of the expac before I get all of the rep rewards. And a set or two of dailies on 11 characters, if I bother leveling everyone to 90, is 11-22 sets of dailies, and I'm still left with not enough rep to get the rewards I want.

I look at rep, I look at dailies, and I look at my character select screen, and all I can see is an endless grind of doing the dailies I've already done more than I want even more.
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90 Human Death Knight
12085
11/05/2012 09:31 PMPosted by Rosenivy
It just occurred to me, all these issues are PVE related. Lock the conquest gear behind a rep grind and the PVPers would be assaulting Blizz headquarters tonight... Food for thought.


You could sneeze and the pvp players would get mad


Let's test this out:

AAAAAHHHHH-AAAAAHHH-AAAAHHHH

*wait for it*

AAAAAHHHH-CHOOOOOOOOOOO
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100 Blood Elf Death Knight
11925

"Gear drops in raids like it always has."
"I like gear like I always have."
"But I want bonus chances at that gear."
"I have to do something to earn bonus chances at that gear?!"
"I don't want to do something to earn bonus chances at that gear!"
"That thing I don't want to do that would earn me bonus chances at that gear, doesn't earn me bonus chances at that gear!"

Let me know if that's an accurate summary, as well as what you're talking about. o.O


Zarhym, I find that most of your replies are in conflict with what appears to be the design philosophy of the dev team, and ignorant of the findings of the psychological sciences. That's why people think your responses are bad and that you're not 'getting it'.

The design team's philosophy seems to be, "let's make dailies give charms because people are on average OCD about anything that'll give them an advantage while raiding, so they'll feel compelled to log in and do dailies. Manipulating people into logging in more consistently, as well as those extra squirts of dopamine when their bonus roll wins something, means people are less likely to drift away and unsubscribe. Also, let's make it so you can't 'finish' dailies, but instead have to keep on buying these charms, so this trick won't stop working when people get max rep. Man, we feel dirty using these psychological tricks, but hey, it gets people to keep logging in and thus playing, and anyway all our competitors are doing it too."

Your stance appears to be, "whaddamean you feel compelled to do dailies? Dailies are a choice. You can choose not to do them. I am Shocked--- Shocked!--- that you feel you must do these dailies that we've made available, let alone complain that you feel manipulated into logging in every day and doing them." This seems both too flippant and to miss the point.

The fundamental point is, when you belittle complaints about player-unfriendly grind-style, log-in-every-day design decisions which neither maximize fun nor respect our time, we're not complaining because we're petulant and feel entitled (well, sure, lots of us are, but that's not the core reason). We're complaining because, as your design team knows so well, players are bundles of neurons, strongly influenced by psychological biases*, and Blizzard is making specific design decisions which play the reward centers of our brains like a piano for the purposes of keeping subscriptions up. When its community manager plays dumb and flippantly belittles people who get close to the topic, it doesn't help the situation in our eyes. It looks awfully evasive.

*If you're genuinely curious about how grind-style gameplay pushes our buttons, I would recommend googling 'Skinner Box', 'Unpredictable Reward', or 'Farmvillians' (excellent article by sfweekly, highly recommended)-- or just ask any devs you know about what tricks they're using to keep people hooked. I'm sure they'll know what you mean.

I'm happy to discuss this further. I suspect this topic of embedding addiction into game design is considered a dirty little secret internally, though, and I doubt you will take my offer. I'm guessing this topic may get locked, for the same reason. But if I may suggest a change in your attitude, I'd recommend against implying everything's a choice and we're all paragons of rationality and dailies aren't designed to make Blizzard money.
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95 Draenei Hunter
11610


Directly related to what that style of player wants.


you're pretty good at dragging goal posts.


not my intent and not trying to derail thread, its late and my brain is acting funny. carry on dear forumites!
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100 Human Mage
17115
11/05/2012 09:22 PMPosted by Rosenivy
I am unable to advance my alts because I cannot stomach the daily grind again after doing it on my main. Check my reps you'll see I am no slouch or lazy layabout.


Then don't do them. It's an alt. You can just get them heroic gear then go into LFR. Done.


I don't even have much incentive to do that. I'm a bit nutty you see. My brain says... "you're valor capped... running dungeons is dumb cause you're losing out of valor you could have been earning if you had some way to spend what you already have".

Then my brain says "5.1 might let you bleed some off via upgrading your gear but your alts professions basically useless to you overall because you can't get the recipes that might actually be useful". Allow me to clarify that.

Just as an example, my lvl 90 priest is a tailor... my lvl 85 lock is a tailor... and both of them are sitting on enough bop silk from skilling up my tailoring by doing the cooldown each day to make some useful stuff with... except I CANT because ALL the non-raid drop recipes that use that silk are gated behind reps that I will never be able to progress because I can't stomach the ideas of grinding the reps a second or third time. Similar issues affect my other alts.

Maybe it really is just time for my hang up my wand. I've played this game since release. I have four 90's, six 85s and a 34. I have no desire to do anything with any but my main right now because the stuff that actually matters to me is locked behind daily grinds I just can't bring myself to go through again. Normally I'd swap to an alt after doing my dailies and other stuff on my main. Now I just log off because playing my alts doesn't accomplish anything I care about.
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90 Undead Warlock
9255

"Gear drops in raids like it always has."
"I like gear like I always have."
"But I want bonus chances at that gear."
"I have to do something to earn bonus chances at that gear?!"
"I don't want to do something to earn bonus chances at that gear!"
"That thing I don't want to do that would earn me bonus chances at that gear, doesn't earn me bonus chances at that gear!"

Let me know if that's an accurate summary, as well as what you're talking about. o.O


Zarhym, I find that most of your replies are in conflict with what appears to be the design philosophy of the dev team, and ignorant of the findings of the psychological sciences. That's why people think your responses are bad and that you're not 'getting it'.

The design team's philosophy seems to be, "let's make dailies give charms because people are on average OCD about anything that'll give them an advantage while raiding, so they'll feel compelled to log in and do dailies. Manipulating people into logging in more consistently, as well as those extra squirts of dopamine when their bonus roll wins something, means people are less likely to drift away and unsubscribe. Also, let's make it so you can't 'finish' dailies, but instead have to keep on buying these charms, so this trick won't stop working when people get max rep. Man, we feel dirty using these psychological tricks, but hey, it gets people to keep logging in and thus playing, and anyway all our competitors are doing it too."

Your stance appears to be, "whaddamean you feel compelled to do dailies? Dailies are a choice. You can choose not to do them. I am Shocked--- Shocked!--- that you feel you must do these dailies that we've made available, let alone complain that you feel manipulated into logging in every day and doing them." This seems both too flippant and to miss the point.

The fundamental point is, when you belittle complaints about player-unfriendly grind-style, log-in-every-day design decisions which neither maximize fun nor respect our time, we're not complaining because we're petulant and feel entitled (well, sure, lots of us are, but that's not the core reason). We're complaining because, as your design team knows so well, players are bundles of neurons, strongly influenced by psychological biases*, and Blizzard is making specific design decisions which play the reward centers of our brains like a piano for the purposes of keeping subscriptions up. When its community manager plays dumb and flippantly belittles people who get close to the topic, it doesn't help the situation in our eyes. It looks awfully evasive.

*If you're genuinely curious about how grind-style gameplay pushes our buttons, I would recommend googling 'Skinner Box', 'Unpredictable Reward', or 'Farmvillians' (excellent article by sfweekly, highly recommended)-- or just ask any devs you know about what tricks they're using to keep people hooked. I'm sure they'll know what you mean.

I'm happy to discuss this further. I suspect this topic of embedding addiction into game design is considered a dirty little secret internally, though, and I doubt you will take my offer. I'm guessing this topic may get locked, for the same reason. But if I may suggest a change in your attitude, I'd recommend against implying everything's a choice and we're all paragons of rationality and dailies aren't designed to make Blizzard money.


Developers use science to keep people playing.

News at 11.
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70 Goblin Warrior
7740
11/05/2012 07:33 PMPosted by Zarhym
Is the only way to get the Elder Charm Coins is by doing dailys by getting 90 of the good coins and turning them into 3 elder...? that sort of forces u into dailys if so.. because u know people want that extra chance in Raid to get the gear so your know there going do dailys to get a silly coin that doesnt even help one bit gg..

"Gear drops in raids like it always has."
"I like gear like I always have."
"But I want bonus chances at that gear."
"I have to do something to earn bonus chances at that gear?!"
"I don't want to do something to earn bonus chances at that gear!"
"That thing I don't want to do that would earn me bonus chances at that gear, doesn't earn me bonus chances at that gear!"

Let me know if that's an accurate summary, as well as what you're talking about. o.O


I think that's pretty accurate. I didn't know what the charms were at first and now I have way too many it seems but I've been doing the hell out of the dailies. However, I do hope you guys create a champion tabard for those factions at some point because I can't imagine anyone doing those on more than a couple toons before they don't want to do them anymore.

Still, I think people are complaining too quick, they're so used to running their alts in earlier expansions that now they look at this grind like they're going to have to do it for each alt at the beginning and it seems overwhelming.

I think you should be concentrating on one toon and doing the dailies on that one.

Remember folks, from BC backwards we didnt have serious alts we had our main and that's what we worked on.
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
11400
11/05/2012 09:34 PMPosted by Kyriani
Maybe it really is just time for my hang up my wand. I've played this game since release. I have four 90's, six 85s and a 34. I have no desire to do anything with any but my main right now because the stuff that actually matters to me is locked behind daily grinds I just can't bring myself to go through again. Normally I'd swap to an alt after doing my dailies and other stuff on my main. Now I just log off because playing my alts doesn't accomplish anything I care about.


And playing just one main is wrong because?

That's what I'm doing. I miss my alts but the sanity is a nice trade off.

Least now you only have to focus on one toons gear. Less stress and gold spending with reforging/gems/enchants.
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90 Night Elf Druid
8045
These progression paths ARE necessary for raid success, being defined as clearing raid content at the earliest time possible with the fewest failures possible. Blizzard needs to understand that our player-designed systems are not only valid, but more valid than whatever blizzard itself wants for players, and they need to design content with those systems in mind so long as they exist.


My biggest peeve is that charms should have been enough for pretty much any remotely dedicated raider to commit at least a few days a week towards dailies. The valor gating just serves as a gun to the head. DO DAILIES! NAO!
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100 Orc Shaman
14900
And for so long as I've played this game, my main means of progression has been valor points (or emblems before that). It's what I enjoy. I prefer having a clear goal to work towards over praying to the RNG gods.

Blizzard may say they didn't intend points to be a primary method of progression, but they have been for years now. It's far, far too late to put that genie back in the bottle.


I don't mean to take this out of context by cut-quoting, but Blizzard pretty clearly thinks it's not too late. They have explicitly stated that they didn't like the system in DS-era Cataclysm. They want Valor points to be, essentially, a record of your activities in game which you can use for incremental upgrades or very slow gap filling -- not a super currency that buys a full raid-quality set on day 1 of an expansion.

Also, at one point in this game's history, attunement quest chains were a staple of raiding and were in the game for "years and years" too. Blizzard decided it was a mistake, and put it back in the bottle. There is still an undercurrent of player displeasure with that choice, sure, but Blizzard seems pretty happy with it overall. I bet they're hoping the same is true with the current Valor model, once people get used to it. Just something to think about.
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100 Human Mage
17115


"Gear drops in raids like it always has."
"I like gear like I always have."
"But I want bonus chances at that gear."
"I have to do something to earn bonus chances at that gear?!"
"I don't want to do something to earn bonus chances at that gear!"
"That thing I don't want to do that would earn me bonus chances at that gear, doesn't earn me bonus chances at that gear!"

Let me know if that's an accurate summary, as well as what you're talking about. o.O


I think that's pretty accurate. I didn't know what the charms were at first and now I have way too many it seems but I've been doing the hell out of the dailies. However, I do hope you guys create a champion tabard for those factions at some point because I can't imagine anyone doing those on more than a couple toons before they don't want to do them anymore.

Still, I think people are complaining too quick, they're so used to running their alts in earlier expansions that now they look at this grind like they're going to have to do it for each alt at the beginning and it seems overwhelming.

I think you should be concentrating on one toon and doing the dailies on that one.

Remember folks, from BC backwards we didnt have serious alts we had our main and that's what we worked on.


The problem is still not being grasped.

I did my dailies on one toon.

I have no desire to do so again.

I do however want to spend my alt's valor.

I also want the patterns for my alts professions.

I am not asking these things be handed to me.

I simply want some other method of earning rep that isn't a daily grind.

Making the tabards at exalted BoA and grant dungeon rep is a much better way to reward people for toughing out a grind to exalted than this "double your rep!" buff nonsense because doubling zero still equals zero and zero rep is what I get for my alts when I do zero dailies because the idea of going through that grind again makes my skin crawl.
Edited by Kyriani on 11/5/2012 9:40 PM PST
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