Growing Gap: Frost Concerns before 5.1

90 Night Elf Mage
15455
I did what I could on opening night of Terrace. Scored a Loshan. Hopefully 4pc will help Frost's scaling problems:

http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Terrace_of_Endless_Spring/dps/

Right now the top 10 dps across all classes on 25M Protectors is 9 fire mages and 1 frost mage, me :P
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11/13/2012 12:37 PMPosted by Repairbill
frost has never really been a super strong pve spec. why is it now that it's semi-viable, people are making a big deal about it not being the best?


Because it is simmed to be the best. It was simmed to be the best before launch. I enjoy Frost. I like the play style. But for progression we need those numbers particularly when the difference is so wide. The thought was that it didn't matter what spec you played because they were so close. Apparently not.
Now that I have the capability to hit 25% with crit, I'm switching to Fire later today and regemming/reforging my gear. The possible extra damage will be benefitial for my raid.
So - what happened? Why are the sims so far off? Simcraft and Noxxic's sims show Frost & Arcane ahead of Fire. http://www.noxxic.com/wow/dps-rankings
What's missing?
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55 Gnome Death Knight
90
Fire and arcane scale better than frost and frost is always in the nerf firing line because of pvp.

Quite frankly, I don't believe frost should be a raiding spec. It's a burst damage spec, best saved for pvp. Anything they do to make it more raid viable (i.e. increase the sustained damage) would either hurt it in PvP or make it too over the top.

I would like to see arcane buffed for PvE because, right now, that's a worthless spec that isn't good for anything. I do, however, understand that arcane will pull ahead in later gear levels.
Edited by Buzzstomp on 11/14/2012 7:21 AM PST
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90 Human Mage
IQ
8250
11/14/2012 07:20 AMPosted by Buzzstomp
I do, however, understand that arcane will pull ahead in later gear levels.


Where you get this secret bit of information? If you go by stat values its the exact opposite. If you go by previous expansions with totally different ability mechanics, different spell coefficients, and an ever increasing mana pool, then its a guess at best, and likely a wrong one.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
4560
Frostbolt needs a PvP buff anyway! If Frost falls behind, that's an obvious candidate.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
3550
11/14/2012 02:14 PMPosted by Affx
Frostbolt needs a PvP buff anyway! If Frost falls behind, that's an obvious candidate.


THIS ^^ Something needs to be done with Frostbolt!! It used be the main spell for everything back in the day, now there is almost no use for it...
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90 Human Paladin
7410
Frost was intended to be a PVP spec.... the trade off you get to having it as a PVE spec is survivability.

Thats why it is mainly used as a PVP spec and fire isn't. You get a pet.... Could you image what fire would be like with a pet?! what you lack in dps you make up in those fights that are tough to survive through.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
4560
Frost was intended to be a PVP spec.... the trade off you get to having it as a PVE spec is survivability.

Thats why it is mainly used as a PVP spec and fire isn't. You get a pet.... Could you image what fire would be like with a pet?! what you lack in dps you make up in those fights that are tough to survive through.

Frost doesn't have higher PvE survivability than fire anymore. The model you're describing died during the transition to the new talent trees.
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90 Human Mage
12695
I did what I could on opening night of Terrace. Scored a Loshan. Hopefully 4pc will help Frost's scaling problems:

http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Terrace_of_Endless_Spring/dps/

Right now the top 10 dps across all classes on 25M Protectors is 9 fire mages and 1 frost mage, me :P


I'm willing to be those top fire parses include a lot of unnecessary (and useless) dot cleaving.
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90 Troll Mage
0
11/13/2012 09:57 PMPosted by Circuitry
Blizz also buffed frost armor right before the expac, and the water jet ability for our pet is clearly designed to help out single target raid dps. I also thought I read that bloodlust/timewarp/heroism is giving us +spell haste instead of +casting speed which would benefit frost more but I'm not sure if that stuck. The point is they clearly want it to be a viable dps spec, and as the more complex of the two rotations, I'd be disappointed if it was doomed to forever be behind fire.


what water jet ability? clearly they don't think frost is far enough from fire to fix us
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90 Human Mage
6115
I haven't reached your raiding level yet, but I really enjoy frost while raiding too. It's such an interesting spec with a lot going on and the abilities/procs are exciting to use. Fire feels extremely dull and slow to me, especially when you are not getting lucky with crits.

I hope frost does scale well with gear and I hope fire doesn't become mandatory at high levels, because I'm not sure I'd enjoy my mage with fire spec. Already from the few raids I have completed, I've been asked numerous times "Why frost?".
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90 Gnome Mage
13405
Something I want to do is compare scale factors between Frost and Fire vs. the actual DPS gap between the two according to sims. I think that would give a clear picture of whether there is a disparity and how much of one there is.
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90 Human Mage
12695
11/15/2012 07:39 AMPosted by Muphrid
Something I want to do is compare scale factors between Frost and Fire vs. the actual DPS gap between the two according to sims. I think that would give a clear picture of whether there is a disparity and how much of one there is.


It would be nice but I think you're going to have an extremely difficult time getting good quality frost parses. Serious guilds are already going back to "go fire or go home".
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90 Gnome Mage
13405
Parses aren't really necessary. Using sims should be fine as long as the scale factors are normalized to the DPS of the spec--this roots out most discrepancies between the sims and real parses and allows us to just look at the scale factors in broadly applicable way.
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90 Night Elf Mage
15455
Sims aren't remotely fine. I haven't found a sim yet that reflects accurately what either frost or fire can do.
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90 Gnome Mage
13405
For the purposes of this comparison, the raw damage numbers do not matter. The sims just need to reflect the changes with stats correctly. As long as the action list is reasonable, the result should be valid.
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90 Pandaren Mage
9935
his is really sad. Might as well rename it wet-noodle-bolt. Without a frozen target, I swear it hits for barely more than a DOTs tick. ><


How much does Fireball hit for anyway? My Frostbolts consistently hits for 35k per hit, non-crit.
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