What's up w/ r. druids and regen?

Barandis: So your priest is very good and carried you, gj.
Its simple, if you end the fight without expending your mana, it means you didnt use reju. If you descide to avoid using reju to keep your mana, you will be healing for alot less.

--------------

Edit: Just as an additional note, losing 2000k of Spirit will only give you enough Int or Mastery to increase your healing by ~3-4%. And you will reduce your mana pool for that fight for ~8% or more.

Two things:

You're looking at this using the extreme ends of the spectrum when there is a happy medium. It's possible to both use your Rejuv and end the fight at zero mana. I proved this last night when our Disc died with a minute left in the fight, leaving only me to heal the remainder. Lol

If you look at the log, my top spell was Rejuv and while I did a lot less in hps (stupid bubbles) I still did significantly more in healing. Trust me, I didn't do all of that in the last minute of the fight because I was fighting to heal people with a sliver of mana and everyone was using personal cds to stay alive. (I did this with 7237 Spirit btw, if that matters.)

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/gpk14g0sgucjy0iz/dashboard/?s=9898&e=10381

Also, when you said mana pool, I'm not sure if you were referring to the size of our mana bar or the total amount of mana we will regen over the course of the fight, but our mana bar is a fixed size now. I think you understand that, but just wanted to make sure.

Edit: It's also worth noting that on our 1st Elegon attempt last night, which lasted 9 minutes 40 seconds before we wiped, the Disc couldn't see the debuff on his raid frames, so I dispelled 14 times vs his 2. Dispelling is a mana sucking task, but Rejuv was still my top heal during the fight and I was low on mana right before we wiped, but I don't recall being oom yet. I didn't do as much healing as the Disc, but my point is that yes you can use Rejuv a lot and still be ok if you manage it well.
Edited by Phaydre on 11/14/2012 2:12 PM PST
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90 Worgen Druid
Lux
11730
Barandis: So your priest is very good and carried you, gj.
Its simple, if you end the fight without expending your mana, it means you didnt use reju. If you descide to avoid using reju to keep your mana, you will be healing for alot less.

We arent saying that we need more regen because others have more regen.
We need more regen because we need to use reju as pre-hot to keep with other healing classes, and we lack the mana to do that right now.

So either change our toolkit to deal with spiked raid aoe damage, or improve our regen so we can spam reju to deal with the problems in our toolkit.

Edit: Just as an additional note, losing 2000k of Spirit will only give you enough Int or Mastery to increase your healing by ~3-4%. And you will reduce your mana pool for that fight for ~8% or more.

So yeah, its not your 3 or 4% more healing that is making you aweasome and others suck.
And id like to remember you that all top guilds are benching druids.

Wrong, wrong, and wrong.

The priest is very good. I outhealed him on every fight. On Will it was by better than 50%...sort of to be expected there since I'm a better tank healer than he is by design and Tranquility is a beast for Titan Gas. Other fights were closer, none ended with him doing more healing than I did.

I use plenty of Rejuv. It's still my top heal on every fight. I just use it smartly. I do not, in fact, find the need to pre-hot the raid in order to keep them alive and suggest instead that the fact that you do this (and therefore lose a great deal of Rejuvenation efficiency because of initial ticks that are wasted) is a large part of your problem.

I do agree that our burst AoE healing is trash and have made this very point in other threads. I agree that at times (but not all the time) Rejuvenation is the best way to handle that. I do not agree that your way of doing Rejuvenation is the correct way as it takes a spell whose hallmark is efficiency and makes it inefficient. You're putting a square peg into a round hole. I do not agree that our only recourse is to come onto the forums, claim we know best, and then call anyone who doesn't toe the party line of "ZOMG durids are teh sux0rs" either "bad" or a "liar".

It is, in fact, possible that the solution is to heal better.

The 3-4% extra healing I'm getting from Intellect and Mastery is doing 3-4% more healing than the 8% mana I have sitting in my mana pool doing nothing at the end of the fight.

My admittedly unscientific perusal of the top 10 25-man guilds in the world suggests that top guilds are not, in fact, dropping druids. Either way, that's not much of a concern until you're in a top guild, is it?

EDIT: I just saw that you haven't downed Elegon or Will of the Emperor yet. This is not an attempt to belittle that at all...my first on either was within the last week. But I'm here to tell you that if you're complaining about mana now....
Edited by Barandis on 11/14/2012 1:59 PM PST
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90 Troll Druid
6705
I have ~10k and i can say that we are still weaker.
All raiders of top guilds i talked to sayd the same thing "Resto druids are useless since replenish removal."
Some also cited mushroom nerf from beta, and others the cata nerf to WG.

We can do all the fights, but druids are in self denial trying to think themselfs as a good class when right now every sane person knows that druids are the WORST healer atm.


I'm having a VERY hard time listening to anything you say after I've healed 4/6 in MSV in 463 gear @ ~7k Spirit and only went OOM at the end of fights like I'm supposed to. You say you're going OOM too fast with ~10k Spirit and that's still in Normal modes; it leads me to believe you're doing something very, very wrong.

I averaged 35k-40k HPS every fight, so don't use your favorite one-liner "You got carried" or the other one "You must not be using Rejuve!"

11/14/2012 01:17 PMPosted by Sàtàn
And id like to remember you that all top guilds are benching druids.


This isn't because Resto Druids underperform. All of the healing specs (save Disc) are pretty even in PvE at the moment as far as throughput goes.

As far as why that fact is pertinent, it really isn't. Maybe 1% of all Resto Druids in the world play in a top-tier progression guild.
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lol Ok you both are right and the best raiders in the world just suck.

You both believe that you are better healers then i, lol, this is pathetic.
Like i said, i have no problem healing any fight, the problem is in a theorical level, we are worse then others, less effective, we have less HPS produced with the same effort.

If you want to dispute that you are just in plain denial.
Seriously, stop arguing and DO THE MATH!
Look at regen numbers, mana cost of spells, HPS produced, effective healing numbers, WoL logs, Raidbot numbers, top raiders theorycraft...

Do some research...
You all heal with your chars and think that your perception of the reallity is the truth, when the scientific method is based on research and not your own perception of the reality.

Run the numbers, see the logs, look at what is happening in top guilds.

I will not lose any more of my time discussing with people that believe they are better then others.
When you understand that being balanced is not about being "able to do the encounter" but "being able to do the encounter with the same amount of effort, difficulty and efficiency" then other classes you can come here to discuss again.

People here are in heavy denial because they want to feel like they are the only ones that are doing good and that others are just bad. When in fact they are the avarage, and the top ones are the ones that are saying the class suck.
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90 Troll Druid
6705
lol Ok you both are right and the best raiders in the world just suck.

You both believe that you are better healers then i, lol, this is pathetic.
Like i said, i have no problem healing any fight, the problem is in a theorical level, we are worse then others, less effective, we have less HPS produced with the same effort.

If you want to dispute that you are just in plain denial.
Seriously, stop arguing and DO THE MATH!
Look at regen numbers, mana cost of spells, HPS produced, effective healing numbers, WoL logs, Raidbot numbers, top raiders theorycraft...

Do some research...
You all heal with your chars and think that your perception of the reallity is the truth, when the scientific method is based on research and not your own perception of the reality.

Run the numbers, see the logs, look at what is happening in top guilds.

I will not lose any more of my time discussing with people that believe they are better then others.
When you understand that being balanced is not about being "able to do the encounter" but "being able to do the encounter with the same amount of effort, difficulty and efficiency" then other classes you can come here to discuss again.

People here are in heavy denial because they want to feel like they are the only ones that are doing good and that others are just bad. When in fact they are the avarage, and the top ones are the ones that are saying the class suck.


I never said I was a better healer than you, I was only implying it. Based on the trouble you say you're having with mana regen, I was pointing out the fact that I was able to perform at the same level (HPS-wise) with WAY less Spirit and manage my mana better.

However, that's not the point I'm trying to make. You're here telling us to


Seriously, stop arguing and DO THE MATH!

Do some research...

Run the numbers, see the logs, look at what is happening in top guilds.


All I've seen from you are numbers you've pulled out of your !@#, haven't cited any source for your "scientific research," linked any WoL parses, or linked rosters from top guilds proving that they're devaluing Resto Druids.

11/14/2012 02:57 PMPosted by Sàtàn
You both believe that you are better healers then i, lol, this is pathetic.


You're spreading disinformation, and coming from someone who's already admitted they don't perform well mana-wise with a 480+ iLvl and 10k Spirit I'm putting two and two together and going to say you just flat-out suck kiddo. Sorry to break it to you.
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You're spreading disinformation, and coming from someone who's already admitted they don't perform well mana-wise with a 480+ iLvl and 10k Spirit I'm putting two and two together and going to say you just flat-out suck kiddo. Sorry to break it to you.


No you are.
I'm spreading the words of the players on top guilds.

I'm not performing bad mana-wise, i can complete all encounters. But if i had more mana, i would be able to produce better HPS obviously.

If you cant understand why im saying that our regen suck, and our hps is weak, then please l2p and l2theorycraft.

You never perform "good" mana-wise if you dont end your fight at low mana.
If you cant understand that you just plain suck.
If you have more mana, heal more, simple as that.

I will not lose my time trying to argue with people with zero real knowledge of druid as healers, and that do zero research.

I could do all the math here, but i will not lose my time trying to argue with people like you.

If anyone really wants to know why we are bad, please start a discussion here, and i may change my mind and post the math here.
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90 Troll Druid
6705
11/14/2012 03:44 PMPosted by Sàtàn
I'm spreading the words of the players on top guilds.


Who? Give us some player and guild names. You can't post stuff like "All the top players and top guilds are doing so-and-so" and expect us to take you at your word without actually posting proof.

I'm not performing bad mana-wise, i can complete all encounters. But if i had more mana, i would be able to produce better HPS obviously.

If you cant understand why im saying that our regen suck, and our hps is weak, then please l2p and l2theorycraft.


This isn't theorycrafting, it's analyzing. Theorycrafting is taking raw data, numbers, and parses, analyzing them, and applying the knowledge you gain from your conclusions to in-game situations.

You never perform "good" mana-wise if you dont end your fight at low mana.
If you cant understand that you just plain suck.
If you have more mana, heal more, simple as that.


This is common knowledge. Mana isn't an issue for me, so I'm having trouble understanding why you feel that Resto Druids need more of it.

I will not lose my time trying to argue with people with zero real knowledge of druid as healers, and that do zero research.

I could do all the math here, but i will not lose my time trying to argue with people like you.

If anyone really wants to know why we are bad, please start a discussion here, and i may change my mind and post the math here.


This is a really bad way to try proving your point. A) I've played multiple Druid toons through every HM-tier progression since early WotLK. I have plenty of knowledge about Druids as healers, having played one through all of Heroic FL progression last expac.

I did research, and what I noticed on WoL was that every single healing spec has players ranked within 10k-20k HPS of eachother, with no real deviations save for some specs do better on some fights than others. That's to be expected, since that's the way the game is designed. Resto Druids and Holy Pallies are ranked high on Stone Guards, since they're both the best mobile healers in the game.

I've been trying to have a civil discussion with you, but you make it very frustrating because you call me out for "having zero knowledge of my class" when clearly you're just blowing me off for the sake of maintaining your facade of infinite knowledge.

11/14/2012 03:44 PMPosted by Sàtàn
I could do all the math here


!@#$ing do it then. You're basing your entire argument on non-existent "theorycrafting," I've been waiting for you to post some results or hard numbers with sources for a few hours now. Show me a reason to believe any word you say is something other than regurgitated BS.
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Yeah, I'm not sure which "two" you were referring to, but I wasn't saying I'm better than you either. All I'm saying is maybe it's not as bad as you think.

I would like to see where you're getting this info from too. Feel free to share your research since you've done so much of it. I'm not going to go searching for a needle in a haystack when somebody else has already done so and claims they found it...
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90 Worgen Druid
9935
So, I think the conversation got a little off topic. I end the fight oom, like we're supposed to. Leftover mana, is wasted mana, imo. But other than innervate and certain trinkets, we are limited to the amount mana we can potentially gain back, and this seems..harsh. Replenishment was nice because it was something passive that happened every 12s?(been a while..), and it was based on "you heal you get some mana back". Our only way of mana regen is to just not heal.

If Tranq and Tree are on CD, our burst healing is extremely debiliatating to our mana pool, because it's essentially rejuv spam.

There was one set bonus that I really liked, the chance for lifebloom to give us mana back. This would be a great fix, and will force druids to keep lifebloom rolling.
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90 Troll Druid
6705
So, I think the conversation got a little off topic. I end the fight oom, like we're supposed to. Leftover mana, is wasted mana, imo. But other than innervate and certain trinkets, we are limited to the amount mana we can potentially gain back, and this seems..harsh. Replenishment was nice because it was something passive that happened every 12s?(been a while..), and it was based on "you heal you get some mana back". Our only way of mana regen is to just not heal.

If Tranq and Tree are on CD, our burst healing is extremely debiliatating to our mana pool, because it's essentially rejuv spam.

There was one set bonus that I really liked, the chance for lifebloom to give us mana back. This would be a great fix, and will force druids to keep lifebloom rolling.


OOC procs are basically a form of Replenishment. Our instant-cast spells also have relatively low mana costs, all < 10k. Dealing with AoE damage, I prefer to WG on cooldown (I don't use the glyph, higher uptime on WG = less bursty AoE damage) and limit Rejuve to the tank + 3 other targets. If you're doing anymore than that, you're going to be spending WAY more mana than you're getting back from Spirit.

In addition to Innervating immediately @ 75% mana to allow the cooldown to be up later on in the fight when you need it, make sure your Shaman (if you have one) is rotating Mana Tide the same way. You get mana back from it too, unless you've forgotten. Between OOC procs, raid mana cooldowns (Boomkins and Ferals don't need their Innervates, get it from them), and mana pots, you really shouldn't be having mana problems @ ilvls > 470 unless you're trying to push Heroic content where you're undergeared and people are constantly taking avoidable damage because they haven't learned fights yet.

As for better mana management, get a bit more Spirit if you really really need it. If you think it's a rotational problem (using the correct spells at the right times) then just work on that. One thing you need to remember is that HPS isn't as important as everyone thinks. Unless somebody dies, you're doing your job. What you need to focus on is maximum use of OOC procs (Glyphed Regrowth imo) and figuring out when the extra mana expenditure on multiple Rejuvenations is warranted.

11/14/2012 04:58 PMPosted by Cubsy
There was one set bonus that I really liked, the chance for lifebloom to give us mana back. This would be a great fix, and will force druids to keep lifebloom rolling.


Lifebloom should always be rolling anyways. Anytime it drops off, you've wasted about 12k mana.
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90 Troll Druid
11920
What is a good number of spirit/regen to have? I currently have about 9000 spirit and 11k regen in combat. I also have low haste, at 2800, which is what askmrrobot is telling me, while sitting around 18k SP. I want to drop some spirit/regen and pick up more haste/SP, maybe some mastery, but not sure at what point my spirit will be enough.
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90 Worgen Druid
9555
11/14/2012 07:04 AMPosted by Skyotter
We need something like shamans and holy pally... I dont remember the talen name... but everytime we cast wrath we gain mana back or something. That would be sick.


agree 100%, myself i dont have that much mana problems, but as a resto druid, it would be nice to have another way to get back mana besides innervate and having to rely on hymms/tides.

this could also make heart of the wild more viable in its current state.
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40 Orc Warlock
10460
So are we still waiting to find out which top guilds is he the spokesperson for?
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85 Blood Elf Death Knight
7830
You both believe that you are better healers then i, lol, this is pathetic.
Like i said, i have no problem healing any fight, the problem is in a theorical level, we are worse then others, less effective, we have less HPS produced with the same effort.


If they can manage their mana better and heal better , yeah , they're better than you. Manage your CDs better.

Sure , a good monk V a good druid will obviously see the druid lose , but it's not always like that. If you are skilled at a druid you can always top the meters/be near the top.

You never perform "good" mana-wise if you dont end your fight at low mana.
If you cant understand that you just plain suck.
If you have more mana, heal more, simple as that.


I can go near the top of the meters and end fights with atleast above 30% mana. It's not a competition , HPS never is. If you think it is , stop playing a healer. It isn't like DPS.

Do some research...
You all heal with your chars and think that your perception of the reallity is the truth, when the scientific method is based on research and not your own perception of the reality.


Still haven't seen you give any proof.

If you want to dispute that you are just in plain denial.
Seriously, stop arguing and DO THE MATH!
Look at regen numbers, mana cost of spells, HPS produced, effective healing numbers, WoL logs, Raidbot numbers, top raiders theorycraft...


Still waiting.

11/14/2012 02:57 PMPosted by Sàtàn
look at what is happening in top guilds.


Really? Correct me if I'm wrong ( I don't see many top guilds rosters ) doesn't Gag Reflex run with a resto?

What I get from you is that you're the type of person that tries to snipe heal , brags about topping healing meters in both LFR and otherwise.

HPS IS NOT THE SAME AS DPS. You only do as much HPS as the boss does DPS. Then it is divided between your partner(s) and you. Overhealing doesn't count. Something tells me you should stop overhealing so much if you have a mana problem and use CDs better.
Edited by Kaenduss on 11/15/2012 2:39 AM PST
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90 Troll Druid
8670
My personal experience so far is that we are fine. Doing well myself even though I do have pretty good gear. Going for int over spirit flasks most of the time unless I feel strained and I am topping HPS on progression fights pretty often. Are disc priests too strong now after their buff? possibly... are monks too good at raid healing, also quite possible, but I don't feel like I'm holding the raid back one bit and with good play I can out heal my disc and resto shammy and rank as well.

Don't spam rejuv unless you absolutely have to. The only times I have done it so far are maybe on last phase of shek'zeer where I still didn't run out of mana, stone guard h/c where mana doesn't matter, feng h/c on last phase if tank isn't dodging. The rest of the time wild growth is pretty awesome. Nourish also isn't useless. Use your clearcast procs with regrowth on lowest targets and make sure you're making use of them right away if someone is low. If there are high damage phases use your cooldowns. Pre-pop tree form and lifebloom. Let Tranq do it's job (people forget it also applies a hot) although I will admit that tranq is weaker than healing tide in 10 man by quite a bit even.

Honestly I don't know what to say, I don't share the same concerns that other people do apparently. Maybe I will? I'm not sure.... The only fight that I didn't like was Gara'jal heroic, I felt a bursty healer would have been better for that fight but we haven't tried that in a while. I guess shrooms could use a buff as they are pretty damn useless atm, but I'm afraid it's just plain mechanically flawed atm and may need a redo to be useful (longer cooldown or something). Like I said maybe other healers are a bit stronger, but then again we also bring some things other healers don't. On Tsulong I started the fight at 80k dps with heart of the wild and went on to finish the fight (didn't kill it because we hit the enrage : /) at 100k hps and at least some useful damage (more than any of the other healers). I think we are doing okay...
Edited by Halfatree on 11/15/2012 5:40 AM PST
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90 Worgen Druid
Lux
11730
Let's also not forget that the original topic of this post was about the horrible nerf that was DM trinkets not being changed at all. It's pretty clear that this guy is someone who's just out to cry wolf with absolutely no evidence of documentation, numbers, or proof. If he thinks it, it must be true.

This pre-hotting really concerns me. I have a very difficult time wrapping my head around someone coming in here, saying he's pre-hotting LK style, and then complaining that he doesn't have enough regen. It's the classic case of "I can't heal this way, please change my class" as opposed to "I guess I'll have to learn to heal within the constraints of my class." The bottom line is that mana regen is not going to significantly change, so if you ever want to be good in MoP (as opposed to being good in BC or WotLK), you'd better get used to it.

Or you can just complain, make yourself feel better, and continue to run out of mana. Your choice.

We are not LK healers. We are not proactive anymore. We can't afford to waste that initial Rejuv tick. We can't afford to not have the first 1-2 ticks of WG actually doing something because we popped it in anticipation rather than in reaction. As much as you continue to try to be one, you are no longer an LK resto druid. You may have once known your class, but you have some re-learning to do.
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If top guilds are stacking the strongest healers for faster progression and completely leaving out Rdruids (which we're still waiting for proof of,) sorry to break the news to you, but they have always stacked the strongest healers. It doesn't mean we're terrible; we're just not as powerful and/or the boss fight mechanics are better designed for other healing specs.

Maybe we're not the top dogs, but our healing is in a pretty good place right now and our mana regen is good enough to successfully get through a fight. If you're not in a top guild, and you're keeping up fairly well with your fellow healers, and you're not being benched, what is the big issue?

It really just doesn't make sense why this Satan guy is complaining. If you look at his logs, he's out-healing the people he raids with. The only reason I can think of is maybe he's used to being OP and is threatened by a narrowing margin between his healing and that of his fellow healers. Big deal. Stop being so insecure. He's crying wolf imo.

Edit: clarification
Edited by Phaydre on 11/15/2012 8:57 AM PST
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11/14/2012 02:57 PMPosted by Sàtàn
You both believe that you are better healers then i, lol, this is pathetic.


11/14/2012 02:57 PMPosted by Sàtàn
I will not lose any more of my time discussing with people that believe they are better then others.
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