What's up w/ r. druids and regen?

Moophious:
Sorry, but what i was trying to say with my bad self taught english isnt that i m better then they, but the contraty at we cant assure who is better then the other, and anyone assuming that they are better and that they opinion worths more is pathetic.

Phaydre:
I will try to explain why im concerned, i'm the best healer of my guild as you noted, and im also the raid leader and guild master, that means nothing, im a player far more experienced then they, and i have free time to invest in my gaming.
I'm a harcore player, i play to the the best i can, for myself not others, that is the way i like gaming, and removing this factor kills part of the fun for me.
I played on some hardcore guilds in the past, now im playing with friends, and i want to do all i can possible do to help then killing the bosses.

If i play the best healer, or a healer that is almost as good as the best i will be able to carry the heal. In fact i have 1 healed some MSV fights, but as a druid i know that there is so much i can do with this character, because when played to the limit its less effective then a shaman or a monk (without 5.1 nerfs dont know how they will end when it hits) or now a disc priest. (overbuffed)

I'm not the average player that just raid. I'm the kind of player that loses hours every day reading about every topic of my class, discussing, changing gems and enchants and doind RF to test, theorycrafting, watching streams, improving my UI, rethinking my methods of healing, etc... I have the free time to do that, and i LIKE doing that.
But the problem is that the limit of what a druid can do is far lower then what other classes can right now.

I'm not implying im perfect, or that i play better then others here, i'm just saying that i invest alot of my time trying to be the best player i can, doesnt matter if im on top guilds or bottom ones its something personal, its what i like in games, in fact playing in a "bad" guild so far is really fun, because i must do all the calls, lead then, and heal alot more because they take more damage then a very good guild would at the same fight.

But thats the way i game.
What im saying is that we are worse. Thats a fact, we are being benched in top guilds, and in due time i believe we will be benched on almost all, since we will keep investing in spirit, wile other healers will start changing gems and reforge to throughput because they have better ways to deal with mana.

If you want to deny that, its ok. The fact stands that when you want to get the max you can from your class, druids are lacking, and not being used by top guilds.
And for me that matters. If it didnt for you, good, but for me it kills exactly what i think is fun in playing this game.

I only expect blizzard sees this coming and buff us, because if they do not, i fear we will lose ground with each passing week as gear increases...
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90 Worgen Druid
Lux
11730
11/15/2012 08:55 AMPosted by Sàtàn
The fact stands that when you want to get the max you can from your class, druids are lacking, and not being used by top guilds.

I almost bit. I almost decided to waste a significant portion of my day looking up the top 25-man guilds to see what they use (checking 10-man guilds isn't useful since through simple lower numbers they're always going to leave 2-3 healing classes on the bench).

And then I thought...why bother? You're not in a top-100 guild. I'm not in a top-100 guild. Heck, we're not in top-5000 guilds. What the top guilds do matters to me exactly zero. They are in different situations on different fights and have different needs. The only reason why it matters to you more than zero is because you've chosen to take something that has no relevance whatsoever to you and turn it into some sort of battle cry.

Try this link:

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Score/10N/100/14/60/default/#fo00000

That's a decent indicator of healing performance in 10-man raids. You'll notice that we're right in the middle of the pack, with a score of 88.1 where the minimum is 80.5 and the maximum is 93.6. One can always argue methodology, so also change this sample (which is top-100) to "All Parses" and you'll see that...well, hey, look. We're right in the middle of the pack, with almost identical scores.

However you slice it up, we're fine. If you are not fine, whether it's raw healing (not the case) or mana management (apparently the case), then investigate the reason for that, because it's not that druids are lacking.
Edited by Barandis on 11/15/2012 9:29 AM PST
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100 Night Elf Druid
10665
11/15/2012 08:55 AMPosted by Sàtàn
If i play the best healer, or a healer that is almost as good as the best i will be able to carry the heal. In fact i have 1 healed some MSV fights, but as a druid i know that there is so much i can do with this character, because when played to the limit its less effective then a shaman or a monk (without 5.1 nerfs dont know how they will end when it hits) or now a disc priest. (overbuffed)

See this is what I was referring to. This isn't a true issue with Rdruid. You are used to being OP and carrying the other healers and want it to stay that way. As a raid leader, you should expect everyone to work as a team and to pull their own weight, not just want to top meters and brag about one-healing fights.

Raid leaders encourage their team to learn more and perform better because that's part of progression. A true measure of how well you are leading is seeing team members improve. If one healer started healing MSV doing 20k hps and 30% of healing done and months later was still at 20k hps and dropped to 20% of healing done, that means you haven't been leading very effectively.

So be happy if your people start doing better and catching up to you. It means you're doing a good job. It doesn't necessarily mean Rdruid is the worst healing spec.
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100 Night Elf Druid
14675
"I did research, and what I noticed on WoL was that every single healing spec has players ranked within 10k-20k HPS of eachother"

Wow that must mean all healers are balanced. Its not like 20k HPS is 30% more healing or anything.

Your research must have also shown Monks, Priests, Pallies and shamans are on average doing higher parses.
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100 Tauren Druid
15130
Barandis, I wish I could like your post =(
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90 Troll Druid
6705
"I did research, and what I noticed on WoL was that every single healing spec has players ranked within 10k-20k HPS of eachother"

Wow that must mean all healers are balanced. Its not like 20k HPS is 30% more healing or anything.

Your research must have also shown Monks, Priests, Pallies and shamans are on average doing higher parses.


Actually it didn't. Look at all 6 bosses in HoF 10mN - top ten players of each spec are ranked pretty close together, with Shammies and Druids being nearly tied on every fight. Druids actually come out slightly ahead of Shammies and Holy Priests on 5 of those fights. Monks and Pallies just have ridiculous throughput, no real surprise there. But it's not really over-the-top either.

Satan was proposing that:

11/15/2012 08:55 AMPosted by Sàtàn
in due time i believe we will be benched on almost all, since we will keep investing in spirit, wile other healers will start changing gems and reforge to throughput because they have better ways to deal with mana.


You're saying that our mana regen is so different from other healers, we'll have to focus solely on Spirit gemming and reforging to keep up. Our mana regen really isn't that different - you're blowing it way out of proportion.

With more gear comes more Spirit: this benefits all healers. Mana pools are locked at 300k now, in case you forgot. This means that, since all spells cost a % of base mana, that cost will never change. So if Spirit goes up and mana usage stays the same you'll only be getting more throughput from Int and secondary stats in addition to more overall mana from Spirit.

As for other healers having better ways to manage mana - they don't. Clearcasting returns a massive amount of mana when used on Regrowth or HT over the entire course of a fight. Combined with Innervate @ 80% mana and later on in the fight when it comes up, we have just as much passive and proc regen as Resto Shammies.
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90 Worgen Druid
Lux
11730
Thank you, Bootzilla. That was an insightful post and more eloquently stated than anything that I've done in this thread. It also brought up something that had eluded me completely.

I mentioned at some point that different healers are different. Nowhere is this more true than looking at the "Mana Gained" window under Recount, which of course has been invoked many times normally followed by "monks get twice as much regen and disc priests four times as much!" Except it doesn't track Clearcasting.

This is part of the reason why comparisons between healers using the little windows with bars in them are so often wrong. How much "regen" do we get out of Clearcasting? Well, I took a look at our Blade Lord Ta'yak kill last night and see that I got 120k mana out of Innervate and just over 30k from a mana pot. That's all that would show up in Recount.

I also had 18 Clearcasting procs which I'm guessing I used on 18 free Regrowths, because that's what I do with them (and I have a really annoying audible alarm to make sure I don't miss any of them). Regrowth costs 17820 mana. Clearcasting therefore was responsible for functionally 321k mana. Suddenly my regen has more than tripled! Stupid resto druids, their regen is so OP.
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90 Worgen Druid
9935
I'm not sure if clearcasting is really effective mana gained. It's not the same as if lifebloom had a chance to proc OOC which gave us 18k mana vs. getting a free cast. I see your point, and it definitely makes sense, but it's not as clear cut as that.
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90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
11/13/2012 11:40 PMPosted by Cubsy
We need replenishment back.

I believe you mean revitalize.
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100 Night Elf Druid
7300
I don't have mana problems. I haven't met anyone that out healed a druid.
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90 Worgen Druid
7905
11/18/2012 05:16 AMPosted by Riosuke
I don't have mana problems. I haven't met anyone that out healed a druid.


In the later fights our regen does become a problem. Not a very big one , though.

Put a good druid v any other equally skilled healer and the druid always loses , we're bottom of the barrel atm. But , never use it as an excuse , it's the player not the class we can still be very competitive.
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90 Tauren Druid
10560
If i play the best healer, or a healer that is almost as good as the best i will be able to carry the heal. In fact i have 1 healed some MSV fights, but as a druid i know that there is so much i can do with this character, because when played to the limit its less effective then a shaman or a monk (without 5.1 nerfs dont know how they will end when it hits) or now a disc priest. (overbuffed)

See this is what I was referring to. This isn't a true issue with Rdruid. You are used to being OP and carrying the other healers and want it to stay that way. As a raid leader, you should expect everyone to work as a team and to pull their own weight, not just want to top meters and brag about one-healing fights.

Raid leaders encourage their team to learn more and perform better because that's part of progression. A true measure of how well you are leading is seeing team members improve. If one healer started healing MSV doing 20k hps and 30% of healing done and months later was still at 20k hps and dropped to 20% of healing done, that means you haven't been leading very effectively.

So be happy if your people start doing better and catching up to you. It means you're doing a good job. It doesn't necessarily mean Rdruid is the worst healing spec.


That's an interesting way to twist his words. All he is simply asking is that Resto druids be brought in line with other healers, because it's frustrating for a good player to feel gimped by the mechanics of his or her own class. He used his past experience as a resto druid healer as an example of what he's capable of and what he enjoys doing when Rdruids are on roughly equal footing with other classes.

Whether Rdruids are actually weak, though, should be debated. Undeniably, they have issues in 25 mans where they don't have an effective toolkit to deal with raid-wide damage. In 10 man, it's not that clear, especially because they are averaging middle of the pack numbers and have utility that is likely to be much more uncommon in a 10 man group than a 25 man. I'm not sure if he is talking about 10s or 25s.

Finally, everything about helping other healers play better is not at issue here and is irrelevant to this topic.

11/16/2012 06:00 PMPosted by Cubsy
I'm not sure if clearcasting is really effective mana gained. It's not the same as if lifebloom had a chance to proc OOC which gave us 18k mana vs. getting a free cast. I see your point, and it definitely makes sense, but it's not as clear cut as that.


Yes, there is a big difference between getting a free Regrowth and getting 18k mana to help you throw out an additional 2 Rejuvs (or cast some other spell). You have no control over when you get a CC proc, which has a time limit and won't stack with another proc if you're sitting on a CC, and you can only spend it on 2 (really 1) spells. This is different from getting a steady amount of mana back over time that you can use to spend on whatever spells your raid needs at the time.

ToL could be considered a mana cooldown to some degree, but only if you can afford to use it for that purpose on a fight and only if you choose the talent- it's not an innate skill or passive to the spec like mana regen is for some of the other specs.
Edited by Pennoyer on 11/18/2012 9:07 AM PST
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100 Night Elf Druid
10665
If i play the best healer, or a healer that is almost as good as the best i will be able to carry the heal. In fact i have 1 healed some MSV fights, but as a druid i know that there is so much i can do with this character, because when played to the limit its less effective then a shaman or a monk (without 5.1 nerfs dont know how they will end when it hits) or now a disc priest. (overbuffed)

See this is what I was referring to. This isn't a true issue with Rdruid. You are used to being OP and carrying the other healers and want it to stay that way. As a raid leader, you should expect everyone to work as a team and to pull their own weight, not just want to top meters and brag about one-healing fights.

Raid leaders encourage their team to learn more and perform better because that's part of progression. A true measure of how well you are leading is seeing team members improve. If one healer started healing MSV doing 20k hps and 30% of healing done and months later was still at 20k hps and dropped to 20% of healing done, that means you haven't been leading very effectively.

So be happy if your people start doing better and catching up to you. It means you're doing a good job. It doesn't necessarily mean Rdruid is the worst healing spec.


11/18/2012 08:59 AMPosted by Pennoyer
That's an interesting way to twist his words. All he is simply asking is that Resto druids be brought in line with other healers, because it's frustrating for a good player to feel gimped by the mechanics of his or her own class. He used his past experience as a resto druid healer as an example of what he's capable of and what he enjoys doing when Rdruids are on roughly equal footing with other classes.

He's raiding 10s, doesn't have mana issues, has 1-healed some MSV fights, and does the most healing by far on his team while raid-leading too.
- why is he frustrated?
- how is he gimped?
- what more should he be capable of?
- how is he not on equal footing?

This guy is doing great, will continue to do so, and shouldn't be freaking out.

11/18/2012 08:59 AMPosted by Pennoyer
Finally, everything about helping other healers play better is not at issue here and is irrelevant to this topic.

I was responding to this part of his post...

11/15/2012 08:55 AMPosted by Sàtàn
now im playing with friends, and i want to do all i can possible do to help then killing the bosses.
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90 Tauren Druid
10560


See this is what I was referring to. This isn't a true issue with Rdruid. You are used to being OP and carrying the other healers and want it to stay that way. As a raid leader, you should expect everyone to work as a team and to pull their own weight, not just want to top meters and brag about one-healing fights.

Raid leaders encourage their team to learn more and perform better because that's part of progression. A true measure of how well you are leading is seeing team members improve. If one healer started healing MSV doing 20k hps and 30% of healing done and months later was still at 20k hps and dropped to 20% of healing done, that means you haven't been leading very effectively.

So be happy if your people start doing better and catching up to you. It means you're doing a good job. It doesn't necessarily mean Rdruid is the worst healing spec.


11/18/2012 08:59 AMPosted by Pennoyer
That's an interesting way to twist his words. All he is simply asking is that Resto druids be brought in line with other healers, because it's frustrating for a good player to feel gimped by the mechanics of his or her own class. He used his past experience as a resto druid healer as an example of what he's capable of and what he enjoys doing when Rdruids are on roughly equal footing with other classes.

He's raiding 10s, doesn't have mana issues, has 1-healed some MSV fights, and does the most healing by far on his team while raid-leading too.
- why is he frustrated?
- how is he gimped?
- what more should he be capable of?
- how is he not on equal footing?

This guy is doing great, will continue to do so, and shouldn't be freaking out.

11/18/2012 08:59 AMPosted by Pennoyer
Finally, everything about helping other healers play better is not at issue here and is irrelevant to this topic.

I was responding to this part of his post...

11/15/2012 08:55 AMPosted by Sàtàn
now im playing with friends, and i want to do all i can possible do to help then killing the bosses.


Generally speaking, raiders want to help their guildmates kill bosses. This should not be a big surprise, whether someone specifically says so in a post or not. Teaching teammates how to perform better is not an ability limited to resto druids. It's also outside the scope of a topic where someone is discussing why resto druids may or may not be poor in raiding right now due to factors outside of the control of the player, and how that player would be able to better aid his guildmates through buffs that would make resto druids comparable to other healers (assuming they're weak right now).

Anyway, even if he's leading his current group of raiders, he obviously shouldn't become complacent. Perhaps he's recognizing what he believes to be the limits of his spec, and also believes that it's far behind other specs. Maybe he's concerned with the fact that, because of his spec, he isn't able to help his guildmates have even better progression than they currently do. There's nothing wrong with wanting to be on roughly equal footing with other specs in order to feel competitive and help your teammates

On 10 mans, though, I think Resto druids are fine compared to the other specs. Even if the heals are somewhat weaker than a few other specs, we have a series of cooldowns that work well in a 10 man setting (less so in a 25, due to the likeliness of cats and boomkins populating a raid). In 5.1, they'll potentially get even more effective healing in the form of being able to give a tank Symbiosis.
Edited by Pennoyer on 11/18/2012 10:39 AM PST
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90 Worgen Druid
11595
Hmmm I don't have a problem with mana. Haven't had an issue with it on any fight. Towards the end of a hard boss fight it gets a bit ugly but that's how it's supposed to be sometimes.
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90 Worgen Druid
11595
11/18/2012 05:16 AMPosted by Riosuke
I haven't met anyone that out healed a druid.

Mistweavers throw druids in the trash and then incinerate them. Pretty easy for a pally to beat a druid too.
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90 Night Elf Druid
10470
11/18/2012 05:16 AMPosted by Riosuke
I don't have mana problems. I haven't met anyone that out healed a druid.

http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Heart_of_Fear/Garalon/25N/hps/

Wall of Monks says hi.
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90 Night Elf Druid
10475
Hi all. Resto druid since vanilla beta here. Satan has some good points, but so do others =)

I'm a raid lead and 10/16 with some heroic experience, and have to say that maintaining the 60k+ hps needed for some fights is tough. Why bring a druid when you can bring a monk (i'm lvling mine now) innervate should be based off of spirit and this would solve the problem we have. Done and its an easy fix.

I two heal MV and raid lead another run as a tank with a holy paladin/shaman 2 healing. My other heals as a druid is a shaman. The biggest problem I see is sometimes you just have to rejuv spam when ToF or tranq isn't up. Blade Lord is a tough fight, and god bless any druid who can 2 heal Garalon. As far as meters go, druids are fine, really. I can keep up with any other healing class- but I do think Paladins and Monks have it easier, and since we share the same loot as MW monks I can see why progression guilds would take them.

We have a great toolkit, and there's a few different ways you can play your class. I've adjusted my healing since cata, have 9500 or so spirit and always have a mana pot ready between cooldowns- having mana tide and hymm help, but as a note something i've learned is letting lifebloom end on a tank- 2 or 3 stacks works, but the end heal for me crits for 225k, its just a matter of letting it bloom when tank is half health. Just little things like that and trying to keep my overhealing at or under 20%. Heroic Progression fights when everyone derps life is just ROUGH anyways. Sometimes, often actually, its the heals job to look at damage taken and bite someone's butt who is taking way too much damage- no one else will point it out except you =)
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90 Undead Warlock
3910
... don't druids have clear casting where they can cast a heal for no mana at all? stop wwasting all ur mana in tree form.
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