Make LFR and Normal/Heroic Share same lockout

90 Undead Mage
16325
I like LFR, it gives me something to do at the start of a week, before our raiding kicks in, it gives me chance at upgrading some gear, and some gear has better optimal stats over the 5 man heroics.

If you took LFR away from me, id only have dailies (which are boring) and my 2 raid nights at the end of a week to do in wow, im not much of an alt person.

That reminds me, i still havnt done sha this week yet :P
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90 Pandaren Warrior
16560
11/01/2012 02:56 PMPosted by Anafielle
If that's the design intent, for us to run LFR, then OK, we will do that. My argument here with Zarhym is that he seems to try and argue that this isn't true. Um. It is.


And our repeated argument to you is that this is how you CHOOSE to play.

No one is holding a gun to your head and saying run LFR this week or else.

YOU are CHOOSING to run LFR due to some lack of control or deep burdened need of feeling incomplete without it. That's not our fault you feel that way.

LFR remains an option, even if your opinion (however wrong it is) is otherwise.
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100 Night Elf Druid
9110
What about having a Heroic LFR ?
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90 Night Elf Druid
8200
11/01/2012 03:05 PMPosted by Dorrell
LFR remains an option, even if your opinion (however wrong it is) is otherwise.

And you viewing them as "wrong" is your opinion as well.
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89 Blood Elf Paladin
6630
11/01/2012 02:52 PMPosted by Aireous
next time buttercookie show your tru colors and post on your raider hiding you progression on a 85 toon i mean common!


I don't think me posting on my main would make any difference.

I stated an opinion : I do not like LFR, I do not like feeling forced into it.

No matter what face I post from my opinion on this does not change.

On a side note it seems everyone in here complaining about "my opinion" does not even raid past LFR so whats the problem? I'm not trying to take anyone's precious LFR away from them.

Maybe blizzards best option would be to take away loot completely from LFR. There now raiders do not feel a need to do it, and non raiders get to see the content they wanted so to see. The biggest problem with LFR hasn't even hit yet, its once the tier gear is available from it.
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90 Pandaren Warrior
16560
LFR remains an option, even if your opinion (however wrong it is) is otherwise.

And you viewing them as "wrong" is your opinion as well.


Nope in my mind it's a fact, just like her being forced to run LFR.

(See what I did there...)

Please though, for the benefit of everyone:

Why is LFR required to be run due to how the game is developed?

It's already proven that it's not needed for progression, you see better versions of the fights, and the other versions drop better gear.

So what DUE TO THE GAME requires you to run LFR?

I'll wait.
Edited by Dorrell on 11/1/2012 3:21 PM PDT
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94 Gnome Warlock
1985
11/01/2012 11:06 AMPosted by Zarhym
Given all of this, the cons largely outweigh the pros in your suggestion to make all difficulties of a raid dungeon share lockouts.


Having 2 chances at an item drop is better than 1 chance, even if that one item is lower in ilvl than the normal version. This goes triple for 10m raiders since the Devs refuse to address the problems with loot distribution that comes from using a 25m loot model with a 10m group system, or to even acknowledge that one exists.
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100 Night Elf Warrior
16380
Please LFR is the worst thing ever and I'm sick of feeling that I have to run it to get a gear edge for normal raiding.

Please make it share a lockout so raiders are not forced into the monstrosity that you have created.

Something that I think is overlooked here... wouldn't your guild or whatever force you to do it anyway? Except you know, you'll have to wait even more because they share a lockout.


First off, LFR ant going anywhere, face it, accept it and move on. To many people use it, I myself only do LFR because I'm an adult (my wife doesn't agree btw), i have limited time and can't put away 5 hours 3-4 times a week to raid, alot of people are in this situation but still want to play. LFR is for us.

So lets imagine Blizzard listens to all these raiders and makes all the lockouts shared.

You could end up with situation were your "forced" to do LFR until you reach the right ilvl, lets say 483, and there wont be a spot for your normal raid until you run LFR x amount of times because your low ilvl is gimping them.

Then the RNG gods could curse you and you would be forever stuck at ilvl just 1 or 2 lower than you need (cos ilvl is the most important thing right?). Forever stuck in the pre raid group, never to the see light of a normal raid.

Like it or not, different lock outs helps min/maxing play style
Edited by Meatwall on 11/1/2012 3:30 PM PDT
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90 Dwarf Hunter
10225
No. Those who choose to run both in the week for whatever reasons they have should not have to suffer because you and your friends can't control your compulsive need to be "optimal." All the blues have said is that the instances are not designed with needing LFR gear to complete them, and this is true. If you and your friends aren't good enough, or if you feel that you do need to do so, then you are free to run them in addition to your other raids. All making them share a lockout accomplishes is keeping you from exercising your own free will.

I bet a good portion of you compulsive types would be the same ones yelling at others about individual responsibility in other facets of life.

TL;DR: the content is designed to be, and has been, downed in gear acquired from the normal > heroic progression through dungeons and raids. If you aren't good enough to do it this way or you want to go faster, then you have optional ways to do this, one of them being LFR.
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100 Worgen Hunter
13240
11/01/2012 03:16 PMPosted by Noctemtenchi
LFR remains an option, even if your opinion (however wrong it is) is otherwise.

And you viewing them as "wrong" is your opinion as well.


When will people on the internet stop thinking things can't be wrong just because you're opinions. When they said "opinions" are never wrong when you were five, they meant that it's not incorrect that you're thinking something. You totally think that 1+1=3 and it's a fact that you're thinking it. Your opinion of the answer, however, is completely wrong. "Opinions" on objective things can be wrong (like his opinion on the purpose of LFR).

Heck, even opinions on subjective things can be "good" or "bad." You can be of the opinion that murdering every single puppy in the world would be a positive for the world, but that's a bad opinion.
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29 Human Mage
0
Look, the whole point of LFR was to allow ultra-casuals to see content.

In LFR, ultra-casuals generally speaking get carried by hardcore/semi-casual raiders.

This is the way the system works. The hardcores are bribed by Blizzard to run the 10k-ers through LFR so that the ultra-casuals get to see content. In order to get the hardcores to do this, Blizzard has to bribe them, because they don't do anything unless they get rewarded. So they get Valor Points, and occasionally gear.

LFR isn't that hard to run. If you're somehow having problems, let me encourage you to a) explain boss fights, and b) run it with 5-10 guildies.
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90 Tauren Druid
3310
11/01/2012 11:06 AMPosted by Zarhym
- Is your guild demanding that you run LFR every week for the chance at some upgrades you haven't made via normal difficulty yet? In your post you say we're forcing you into LFR, but that's not true. I won't argue semantics, but if you're min/maxing your character for every competitive edge possible, that's a playstyle choice.


I've never had anything to say contrary to something stated in blue here before now.

I don't raid currently, so I'm not really attempting to defend anything here. I'm just aware of how things work, and I have raided in the past. I'm also not saying I want Raid Finder and Normal mode raids to share a lockout. I just think you're missing something:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but due to raid lockouts which already exist, a one week lead on Normal modes means exactly one chance at loot drops from each boss in a given raid before the release of Raid Finder.

That's how many total pieces of upgraded gear?[~24?] Now bounce that against how many pieces of gear a 10 man raid group brings with them, which would each be upgradable.[This is somewhere between 150-160 pieces.] So, after one week, your typical cutting edge raiding guild, if they downed every boss in the latest content that week, still needs to upgrade something on the order of 125 pieces of gear. Raid Finder is available the following week.

You're saying that even cutting edge raiders are 'not required' to run Raid Finder to gear up. Looking at the above numbers, it doesn't matter if you're on the cutting edge or not. And it's just a little bit worse if you're not on the cutting edge. Everyone who seriously raids has a good reason to run Raid Finder. Most people who seriously raid are forced to by their raid and/or guild leader. Pretending like this isn't the way the game works is simply denying the truth.

This same logic applies to daily quests, in fact. There are enough BiS items available from daily quest reputation rewards that at some point, many serious raiders will be doing daily quests to earn those rewards, not because they want to, but because their raid will accept nothing less. Again, pretending like this isn't the way the game works is simply denying the truth.

Admittedly, the total normal mode raiding customer base is a drop in the bucket compared to the number of people who run Raid Finder now, so the best solution here is pretty obvious. Blizzard has no logical reason to change this to please the few, when the current system pleases the many.
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100 Night Elf Warrior
16380
On a side note it seems everyone in here complaining about "my opinion" does not even raid past LFR so whats the problem? I'm not trying to take anyone's precious LFR away from them.

Maybe blizzards best option would be to take away loot completely from LFR. There now raiders do not feel a need to do it, and non raiders get to see the content they wanted so to see. The biggest problem with LFR hasn't even hit yet, its once the tier gear is available from it.


Ahh, the old special flower syndrome, the "Ima raider! I want to feel more ubar than you so you can't have anything even close to my gear."

I have never understood this attitude. In cata my LFR gear was yellow, making it plainly obvious to everyone I passed in stormwind that I only did LFR. Normal gear was red and heroic was blue. It not enough that everyone can see you run heroics? everyone else has run around in blues and greens?.

Blizzards best option for you is to remove loot from LFR, hey guess what? about 9,999,999 other people play. If blizzard only did what was best for you alot of people would start to quit, then you couldn't refill your raiding group from the ppls leaving due RL. Then you would only have enough on to run 10 mans, then you wouldn't be able to raid at all cos your the only person left in the whole of Azoreth, with no one running around in LFR gear to look down your noise at.
Edited by Meatwall on 11/1/2012 3:55 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
13910
No. Where did you get that idea? Way There is no dictator telling me all hardcore raiders, "YOU MUST RUN LFR!!!!!!!" Agh.

I am not sure how else to put this but: I run LFR because the game isn't fun for me unless I do. I play in a guild with 30 raiders who feel the same way and we all raid happily together that way.

I don't insult your guild. I respect your playstyle. How about respecting mine?

I apologize if I misunderstood your post. You said "I have been very irritated that my 3 night a week raid schedule has been effectively upped to 4, so that I can make my guild's LFR run on tuesdays. I raid in my guild specifically to enjoy a light raiding schedule and I really dislike feeling as though I'm raiding on 4 nights a week, even if the 4th is a casual LFR run." The underlined parts made your post sound like this was about your guild's raiding schedule, not about you. I'm not insulting your guild, or your playstyle, I was simply stating that if you feel like your guild's raid schedule is too much with them doing LFR runs, the solution is to find a guild that doesn't do them/require them (which you've clarified yours does not require them).

However, all that being said, and the comments that people have made about running the same stuff over and over again, this is really and completely no different from prior expansions, so I don't know why people seem to think it is so different here.

TBC and pre-LFD WotLK: you ran every heroic you could every lock out so you could get the gear drops/badges you needed from the respective dungeons. Once you were done with the dungeon drops, you continued running heroics for the badges until you had all the badge gear you needed. Once a new tier was released, you ran the old tier every week until you had every upgrade you needed. All this would be done outside of "normal raiding" times, and for hardcore guilds (one of which I was a member during TBC) it was expected. Only cap on # of badges was how many options you had: once you did every heroic in a day, and had done every raid for the week, you had no more method of obtaining badges.

post-LFD WotLK: you ran LFD over and over until you had every gear upgrade from heroics possible. You used your top end badges (originally once a day, later 7/week) to get as much higher level badge gear possible. You continued running LFD until you had all the badge gear you could get. You also ran the weekly raid quest every week without fail to make sure you had as many badges as possible. With badge gear outclassing previous tier raid gear, you didn't have to run old raids anymore, but that meant when a new tier of badges came out, you needed to re-run LFD and weekly raid quests to get your new tier of badge gear. You only had a cap of the top end badges based on your method of obtaining them (1 per day/7 per week from LFD, and the drops off current tier raid bosses). The lower level badges had no caps, only your time capped it.

Cataclysm: Same as WotLK, only replace badge gear with JP and VP gear, and the cap was a set amount per week for VP and a max amount for JP overall. Much like WotLK, VP gear was over the prior tier raid's content, so once a new tier was released, there was little reason to run old raids (sorry mages who didn't get the legendary, we aren't going back to Firelands again). LFR was added and most of the gear was not much (read: in many ways not even as good as) what you could get from Firelands... except for the set bonuses and the trinkets/weapons, which blizzard acknowledges was a mistake.

So, I just don't see what is so different from before? If you've wanted to "be the best you can be" and if the game just isn't fun if you aren't doing your utmost for each and every piece of gear, we've always had this playstyle of running the same things over and over and over again, either for badges, for gear drops, for points. The only difference is now one of the things you run over and over is the raid. How is that worse than running H.Scholo for the 7th time this week because it keeps popping up on your LFD queue (replace H.Scholo with any dungeon you want)? I just don't see why LFR is the issue when this is how gearing has worked since TBC and badges, when re-running the same stuff over and over even if you don't need the gear itself has been commonplace.

Note: I say since TBC b/c that's when I started. I can't speak for Vanilla, but from what I've heard, once you had the gear from a lower level dungeon (or the resist set/reputation drops), there was 0 reason to ever go back save for a guildie.
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100 Human Warlock
15930

Admittedly, the total normal mode raiding customer base is a drop in the bucket compared to the number of people who run Raid Finder now, so the best solution here is pretty obvious. Blizzard has no logical reason to change this to please the few, when the current system pleases the many.


I was about to argue with your post until I decided to actually finish reading it, and saw this :)

That's pretty much it in a nutshell "this game is no longer tailored to the needs of (and probably unsuitable for) people with a "progress at any cost" attitude, unless they truly are happy with "progress at any cost".

The majority of people that complain are those with a "progress at all costs as long as its my own choice of which costs and don't you dare add in things I'm unwilling to pay the cost for" attitude. The only difference between MoP and previous expansions is there's now things that that group are unlikely to enjoy paying the cost for. To be quite honest, the problem is with their attitude and expectations, not with the game.

Everyone else either shrugged at the cost and did it anyway, or saw the cost and decided it wasn't worth it and decided to do something else instead, the way it was designed for.
Edited by Alelsa on 11/1/2012 3:58 PM PDT
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90 Tauren Paladin
4995
I like cheese. Jus' sayin'.
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