Make LFR and Normal/Heroic Share same lockout

100 Dwarf Death Knight
18410
I don't see very many really elite raiders complaining about LFR, because even if they do feel obligated to do it its only a tiny amount of time and effort compared with what else they have to put into the game.

Its mostly wanna-bes who complain, apparently as a kind of veiled way of boasting how good they are. They are not really that good.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
13110
You're saying that even cutting edge raiders are 'not required' to run Raid Finder to gear up. Looking at the above numbers, it doesn't matter if you're on the cutting edge or not. And it's just a little bit worse if you're not on the cutting edge. Everyone who seriously raids has a good reason to run Raid Finder. Most people who seriously raid are forced to by their raid and/or guild leader. Pretending like this isn't the way the game works is simply denying the truth.

Your twisting what he was saying. There's a difference between a cutting edge raiding guild requiring their raiders to use Raid Finder to gear up versus the game requiring it. He directly said: the min/maxing that goes into those cutting edge raiding guilds forcing you to do it: playstyle choice. Your serious raiding guild forcing you to do it: playstyle choice. Required to be able to complete normal mode raiding: No.

Yes, a serious raider is going to do it. Just like a serious raider would go through all the other hoops in the past to gear up as fast as possible, as efficiently as possible, and as strong as possible (see my prior post about past expansions in terms of re-running heroics for badges/points, etc). That's absolutely nothing new in the game. It's never been a matter of WHETHER a serious raider would go the extra step, it was WHAT do they have to do.

You bring up reputation: any serious raider HAD to grind reputation for their head enchants and shoulder enchants (and prior to WotLK, that did NOT include chain running LFD with a tabard). But you don't have to stop there: any serious raider HAD to farm for that specific pattern to drop for that one enchant/gem pattern/etc, any serious raider HAD to farm mats for that BoP crafted item they could make.

Any SERIOUS raider would do whatever they needed to do to get the edge. If it isn't LFR, it's reputation, if it isn't reputation, it's VPs/JPs, if it isn't points, it's dungeon grinding, pattern grinding, etc etc etc.

But there's a HUGE difference between what a serious raider does, and what a serious raiding guild requires, versus what the game requires. What a player requires versus what the game is designed for. Like being kicked from a group for a heroic ICC 5 man because my HP was under 55k during WotLK, when it was designed for tanks in gear that would generally net around 30k HP. Being kicked from a heroic for pulling low DPS, when I'm pulling DPS appropriate for my gear level, which was enough to get me in, but it's not enough for the raid geared group wanting to faceroll it. Those are PLAYER expectations (like your serious raiding guild expecting you to run LFR), but he is saying the GAME expectation is that you can run and complete normal mode without a single piece of LFR gear. Anything past there is a playstyle choice.
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90 Night Elf Druid
8200
I don't see very many really elite raiders complaining about LFR, because even if they do feel obligated to do it its only a tiny amount of time and effort compared with what else they have to put into the game.

Its mostly wanna-bes who complain, apparently as a kind of veiled way of boasting how good they are. They are not really that good.

You mean casuals who dont have much time in the game, let alone are not payed to play. The same kind of casuals that Blizzard has been catering to for the past two expansions and then turned around going oops we made the game too casual friendly, lets go back to catering to the no lifers.
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100 Gnome Warlock
13870
11/01/2012 04:14 PMPosted by Thingolo
You're saying that even cutting edge raiders are 'not required' to run Raid Finder to gear up. Looking at the above numbers, it doesn't matter if you're on the cutting edge or not. And it's just a little bit worse if you're not on the cutting edge. Everyone who seriously raids has a good reason to run Raid Finder. Most people who seriously raid are forced to by their raid and/or guild leader. Pretending like this isn't the way the game works is simply denying the truth.

Your twisting what he was saying. There's a difference between a cutting edge raiding guild requiring their raiders to use Raid Finder to gear up versus the game requiring it. He directly said: the min/maxing that goes into those cutting edge raiding guilds forcing you to do it: playstyle choice. Your serious raiding guild forcing you to do it: playstyle choice. Required to be able to complete normal mode raiding: No.

Yes, a serious raider is going to do it. Just like a serious raider would go through all the other hoops in the past to gear up as fast as possible, as efficiently as possible, and as strong as possible (see my prior post about past expansions in terms of re-running heroics for badges/points, etc). That's absolutely nothing new in the game. It's never been a matter of WHETHER a serious raider would go the extra step, it was WHAT do they have to do.

You bring up reputation: any serious raider HAD to grind reputation for their head enchants and shoulder enchants (and prior to WotLK, that did NOT include chain running LFD with a tabard). But you don't have to stop there: any serious raider HAD to farm for that specific pattern to drop for that one enchant/gem pattern/etc, any serious raider HAD to farm mats for that BoP crafted item they could make.

Any SERIOUS raider would do whatever they needed to do to get the edge. If it isn't LFR, it's reputation, if it isn't reputation, it's VPs/JPs, if it isn't points, it's dungeon grinding, pattern grinding, etc etc etc.

But there's a HUGE difference between what a serious raider does, and what a serious raiding guild requires, versus what the game requires. What a player requires versus what the game is designed for. Like being kicked from a group for a heroic ICC 5 man because my HP was under 55k during WotLK, when it was designed for tanks in gear that would generally net around 30k HP. Being kicked from a heroic for pulling low DPS, when I'm pulling DPS appropriate for my gear level, which was enough to get me in, but it's not enough for the raid geared group wanting to faceroll it. Those are PLAYER expectations (like your serious raiding guild expecting you to run LFR), but he is saying the GAME expectation is that you can run and complete normal mode without a single piece of LFR gear. Anything past there is a playstyle choice.


Great point very well put.
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90 Human Paladin
C N
5415
OK but only if we get a separate 10 man LFR lockout too
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90 Worgen Druid
7980
The issue here seems to be that LFR lacks a solid definition.

Is it meant to gear people? Is it meant to make people experience the entire raids? Is it meant to just be a fun, loose experience?

If they define it by "gear people", it will be mandatory.
If they go with "allow people to see fights" or "let people faceroll and have fun", loot has no place in it.

I honestly think that the strongest pull apparently is "allow people to see fights". This is why I think loot should be replaced with extra Justice/Valor points.

I would like to run it as an alternative way to cap Valor AND (almost not) practice fights. That I could do as much as I want (this week could do more dailies, so less LFR Valor needed).
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100 Night Elf Warrior
16190
Please LFR is the worst thing ever and I'm sick of feeling that I have to run it to get a gear edge for normal raiding.

Please make it share a lockout so raiders are not forced into the monstrosity that you have created.

Agreed. LFR is an abomination that cheapens the epicness of a raid. Either remove it completely or remove the loot tables. Wanna see a raid? Raid like we all did in the past, or go watch it on youtube.


Or.... Normal/Heroic raids create players who are so far up themselves they are most inside out and they are polluting the player base with their selfish elitist attitudes. Saying things like "WTF pwned!11!!!" and "LTP you bad!!". Wow would be a much nicer place without these people so i think we should remove normal and heroics.

I'm not sure of the numbers but I'm pretty sure wow could suffer the lose of raiders. But if all the people who only had time LFR left then were would serious hit on the subscriptions.
Edited by Meatwall on 11/1/2012 4:37 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
8200
If they define it by "gear people", it will be mandatory.
If they go with "allow people to see fights" or "let people faceroll and have fun", loot has no place in it.

Well to add to that, it has been stated multiple times from Blizzard that in order to keep Challenge modes "optional," they cannot reward stat based gear and will only reward cosmetic items. Then Blizzard adds stat based gear to dailies and LFR and says they are "optional." Looks like there there are other reasons in play, like knowing that players wont "see" their content if there isnt stat based gear or that experienced players wont be there to fill the queue and help carry/teach others in LFR which would make the system a failure. Cant have that, better off having players argue with each other than having a system fail.
11/01/2012 04:34 PMPosted by Meatwall
I'm not sure of the numbers but I'm pretty sure wow could suffer the lose of raiders. But if all the people who only had time LFR left then were would serious hit on the subscriptions.

So WotLK had no raiders? The game was doing fine without it and the majority still did not get to see all the "content" when it was current. Your "raiders" are in the minority, yet we are not talking about a few percent, it is large enough to mater in at least a couple million or so based on the data available to players. Sure the developer could remove normal and heroic raids, yet they wont from both a vision of the game standpoint and from a business standpoint. A number of the developers like raiding and have admitted on being in heroic progression guilds. *gasp* Yes people with jobs doing heroic raiding. The developers are not going to flat out give raiders the finger and lose their business.
Edited by Noctemtenchi on 11/1/2012 4:59 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Hunter
7945
I'm against this idea.

If I choose to run LFR to gear up my character so that the normal/heroics (assuming I follow the normal progression: normal 5man -> heroic 5man -> LFR -> normal 10/25 -> heroic 10/25) raids go smoother, thats my choice.

If I choose to try a normal 10/25 man raid in nothing but heroic 5 man gear, again, that's my choice.

So...what, if I have an extremely lucky LFR run, where, lets say I pick up 3 pieces, I should have to wait a week to try running a normal raid?

No thanks.

Why should I be penalized for trying to optimize my characters gear?
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100 Human Warlock
15830
The issue here seems to be that LFR lacks a solid definition.

Is it meant to gear people? Is it meant to make people experience the entire raids? Is it meant to just be a fun, loose experience?

If they define it by "gear people", it will be mandatory.
If they go with "allow people to see fights" or "let people faceroll and have fun", loot has no place in it.


You missed "to allow people who don't raid to see the content and get gear".

It's also about giving those people a progression path. Shinies they can work towards, so they don't feel like there's a whole part of the game designed for them never to get to be a part of.

As with so many other things, raiders see it and notice there's upgrades in there, and start using it, then some (a relatively small group) start to complain they don't like the method and as the loot in there is so obviously placed in the game just for them and nobody else, the system needs to be changed to meet their own requirements or preferences.

It's the same with rep gear, which was placed there for anyone who wants to do that chosen rep grind, but people will insist it was placed there for them because their raid group told them so, or because their personal way of playing the game differently to how it was designed requires them to have it.

It's obviously inconceivable that it's just there for people that decide they'd like to play that part of the game to get it.
Edited by Alelsa on 11/1/2012 4:40 PM PDT
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100 Dwarf Death Knight
18410
You mean casuals who dont have much time in the game, let alone are not payed to play.

I don't mean "casuals". I mean people who post on the forums "look at me I'm top elite raider why am I forced to run LFR with bads every week". But when you check them out you see they are really not as progressed as they claim, and whatever's holding them back is not really gear. I don't see the really good raiders complaining about LFR, its mostly people who just want others to think they are elite.
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90 Night Elf Monk
11335
11/01/2012 12:37 PMPosted by Kewngpow
Maybe it's because you don't agree with him about the lockout changes that he's upset and thinks you're trolling.


We all know trolls don't like to be contradicted.


Worse, they don't like to be PROVEN wrong.
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90 Night Elf Monk
11335
I'm definitely against LFR and other raids sharing the same lockout. I run LFR when I've got a hankering for the particular content and don't choose to level up another character JUST for the opportunity to raid "easy" 25 man content. I can also use the LFR system to see how my talents, glyphing, and reforging can work in a raid environment - something I don't feel I can accurately test in 5-mans.

The "don't make it available so i don't feel compelled to do it" request is too personal and damaging to the way that others want to play the game. Contrary to what the OP may think, Blizzard isn't making a game for one person. Sure, it's his $15/mo but it's 10million others' $15/mo as well. And I think Z hit it on the head the way that he posed his questions.
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100 Blood Elf Hunter
7945
11/01/2012 04:49 PMPosted by Vester
I can also use the LFR system to see how my talents, glyphing, and reforging can work in a raid environment - something I don't feel I can accurately test in 5-mans.


I never thought of it that way, but chances are I've done that more than I've realized, lol
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90 Blood Elf Mage
0
Share the same lockout? Are you mental?

I believe that LFR has dumbed down the raiding community in general. I beleive that they should make the bosses and mechanics hit just a touch bit harder in LFR. Especially, if you screw the pooch on a fight and ignore mechanics.
Edited by Deathsblaze on 11/1/2012 4:58 PM PDT
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90 Human Rogue
5495
For someone like me who doesn't have time to spend on WoW due to a job, successful relationship, and various other things in life, LFR provides me an option to do a quick, and I do mean quick because it takes 30 minuets.... raid with a small chance to get gear.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to raid normally, but I don't get off work till 1:30am and my off days are mondays / tuesdays the absolute worst days to have off if you want to raid...

There is no way that I can max valor every single week, I don't see how you consider LFR mandatory when MV can be cleared in heroic gear, LFR just helps out a bit here and there, the heroic gear is enough to raid with....
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90 Worgen Mage
15160
- Are you in a guild that has success with Heroic raid progression? This one's pretty important, as any guild that's good enough to be farming, or at least killing several bosses in, Heroic Mogu'shan Vaults and Heart of Fear by the time Terrace of Endless Spring opens via LFR, will not likely need a single piece of gear from LFR. Terrace of Endless Spring LFR items won't be as good as your Heroic raid gear.


Your the second Blue to say that and it is not actually true. Yes you reach a point where LFR is no longer necessary but we have not reached that point yet. You have 35+ raiders in a 25 man guild, being switched in and out constantly both to maximise gear and spread the gear out and we still have many raiders that have upgrades in MV LFR - enough that almost half our raid team still runs it on reset. There will be a point when it is no longer needed, but then we have the next two raids LFR's, which include tier gear so once again upgrades.

On top of that, the fastest way to collect Signets for the Legendary questline is through LFR. I am not sure if that is intended, but our entire raid team has received more signets in LFR than we ever saw in Normals, so if the next two LFR's also drop signets for the second set, we will need to be clearing them for that reason alone.

You still have LFR far too attractive for Heroic raiders to ignore, sorry.

- Is your guild demanding that you run LFR every week for the chance at some upgrades you haven't made via normal difficulty yet? In your post you say we're forcing you into LFR, but that's not true. I won't argue semantics, but if you're min/maxing your character for every competitive edge possible, that's a playstyle choice.


You just argued semantics. Yes it is a playstyle choice, but when you have Heroic content, not putting the effort in to increase your damage not only is a detriment to the player, but the entire team. It is a giant finger given to the raid as a whole if you are not attempting your best to get as much gear and maximising that gear as you possibly can. We make that easier for raid members by running guild clears of LFR, but you have sidestepped the topic of being forced to run LFR saying it is not necessary - it actually is, despite a rosy view that it isn't.

- How badly are you really hurting your raid by not running LFR? Is your progression in normal difficulty such that upgrading from a piece of ilvl 463 gear to 476 gear is "make or break" for the entire raid? With stat inflation, the difference between these item levels is almost negligible, unless you're comparing full sets. But in the amount of time it might take you to get several upgrades via LFR, you should be getting several upgrades via normal difficulty -- and you get a head start on normal difficulty with Raid Finder always releasing at least a week later.


I am sorry but I actually find this attitude from players the height of rudeness. To come to a raid, where you are attempting to kill bosses - in some cases with tight enrage timers - with the attitude that "who cares if there is an upgrade I can get there, I can't be bothered cause I might get a better upgrade after killing the very same bosses that upgrade will help you kill" is the kind of attitude that would have you removed from guild. We are incredibly flexible with our members, we help a great deal, shoulder the burden for our raiders of a lot of stress of running and organizing, we only ask one thing of the raiders - that they make that effort to be geared. It helps both the person and the raid as a whole. 18 dps in a 25 man all going "who cares" and you have lost a metric ton of damage that may very well have helped kill new bosses. For us, choosing that option is both selfish and arrogant and is one of the few choices that if we find raiders make has you removed from guild as we do not want to play with players who don't care about the other raid members.
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90 Tauren Druid
3310
11/01/2012 04:14 PMPosted by Thingolo
He directly said: the min/maxing that goes into those cutting edge raiding guilds forcing you to do it: playstyle choice. Your serious raiding guild forcing you to do it: playstyle choice. Required to be able to complete normal mode raiding: No.


What I'm pointing out is that it doesn't matter whether Blizzard makes Raid Finder prerequisite to Normal/Heroic, or that raid leaders make it a prerequisite to participation in the raids. It's still required, ultimately, for many raiders who would otherwise prefer not to do it. Blizzard stating that it's a playstyle choice simply because Blizzard didn't make it a prerequisite doesn't make it a playstyle choice for those people whose raid leaders require it. It makes it a requirement.

Edit:
11/01/2012 04:14 PMPosted by Thingolo
(like your serious raiding guild expecting you to run LFR


No, if you read my quote, I don't raid currently. It's not my raiding guild. I only run Raid Finder. I don't have a dog in this fight, but I agree with the sentiment that it is, in fact, a requirement, and Blizzards supposition that it is anything else is debunked by the reality of the situation.
Edited by Odietamo on 11/1/2012 5:55 PM PDT
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90 Gnome Priest
17400
No one is forcing you to do dailies.

Yes, it is forced.

I raid.

No loot drops for me but I do get VP as a reward.

I can't redeem my reward unless I do dailies. If I don't redeem my reward, I'm not getting upgrades I need to help with the group's progression. If I don't get those upgrades and the group decides to replace me because I am now undergeared for group needs, I no longer have content to participate in.

Thus, I have to do dailies to redeem my reward and be able to retain my raid spot.

Why should I have to do dailies to redeem a reward I received for participating in different content?
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