Make LFR and Normal/Heroic Share same lockout

Community Manager
1) LFR will remain relevant through this particular tier because it is the first one.
LFR is relevant right now. For sure. My guild for an example is 3/6 H, and 25 man (so we get bonus loots), and at least a third of my raid could still use an upgrade from LFR just due to RNG. We're still going in there! And, when you release HOF and Terrace LFR, I will certainly be in there tons to grab my tier. I have to plan all these LFRs into my week. I know this is a unique situation right now because it is the very beginning of the expansion. I am hoping that you guys' plans to devalue LFR for raiders kick in in a couple tiers with the ilvl changes; however, at this very moment, you should really believe that raiders of ALL flavors are running it.

You're correct. That's why I said in my original post that I didn't want to argue semantics over, "Blizzard is forcing me to do this." Raid Finder absolutely provides a strategic advantage for progression raiders looking to increase their character power as quickly as possible, fill out set bonuses, etc. But yes, over the course of this expansion's lifecycle that should be diminished, particularly for Heroic raiders. The need to regularly run (meaning over the course of several weeks) the Raid Finder versions of upcoming Mists of Pandaria raids should feel far less crucial, if not nonexistent, for dedicated raid guilds.

2) Valor Points.
LFR represents a larger quantity of VP than even raiding. VP is important now for gear, and will be important in the future for our upgrade paths; the cap is pretty far away by design. As long as that holds true, and as long as LFR rewards so much VP, we'll all be running LFR.

Assuming we're talking about an above-average, organized guild, Challenge dungeons are mathematically the fastest path to the VP cap. Of course the difficulty isn't comparable between LFR and Challenge Modes, but a serious raiding guild can go into an organized five-player setting and get to the VP cap faster, as opposed to gambling with a random LFR queue or facerolling LFR with a full guild clear.

You don't even have to be anywhere near a record-breaking time to be getting more VP/minute than in LFR.

3) Not every HM raider hits a new tier in Best in Slot.
You guys are opening instances very quickly. I appreciate that we are being provided with lots of raids, but you must understand that there are tons of times when LFR - at that single moment in time - represents an upgrade path for a given raider even if they are clearing a lot of heroic mode bosses.

Absolutely, and that's okay sometimes. In my first post I said that one of our goals is to ensure that Raid Finder has a healthy pool of players from which to choose. Our goal isn't to make sure progression raiders never want or need to run LFR. Having experienced raiders queuing up is usually going to be a net gain for everyone (in terms of wait times, success rates, etc.). There is usually some benefit to most level-90 players running Raid Finder, but that's obviously very different from "forced content."

It kind of depends on your goals, your guild's goals, and what you want to get out of the game. I'll still assert that Raid Finder isn't a progression roadblock for those who prefer to stick with normal/Heroic raiding.

4) Procs and tier bonuses will be devalued, but once in a while there might come one that's OP.
You also assume that the ilvl change will completely devalue LFR gear. I hope this will be true, but I suspect the devs - who try as hard as they can - will still occasionally throw in a very op set bonus or trinket proc. These things just happen.

I definitely see your point, and even I've been involved in several discussions with the developers about this concept, so I know they discuss the itemization/progression model quite a bit in their daily lives. ;)

Of note, we recently spoke about the Sigils for the legendary gem. Even in that case, they're watching closely and expect the LFR runs simply for more shots at the Sigils will tail off.

Thanks for taking the time to lay out your points clearly and constructively, Anafielle!

11/01/2012 01:38 PMPosted by Buttercookie
Zar said he wanted a discussion, yet seems to ignore the sensible well articulated points in favor of making fun of the OP.


Blues do this a lot. It's an easy way for them to deflect negative discussions and lets all their fanboys come out and derail the threads for them.

It is a little frustrating that I pay for the game and other blizzard games then get bad mouthed by their employees on a gaming board.

If I went to a store that I frequented and was insulted by the equivalent of a salesman, there would be much different repercussions.

Butter, you've accused me of trolling and bad-mouthing you, and derailing your thread.

In reality, I used your post as a catalyst to bring more attention to the very discussion I assumed you wanted to have with the community about endgame progression, and how different types of content you might not enjoy can feel mandatory if you want to build the most ideal character possible. It's a great design philosophy discussion worth having. By posting here, however, I had to address the points of your original post, in which case I disagreed with the validity of your proposed solution.

My primary point was simply that we've taken a great deal of care in crafting some pretty complex endgame progression systems, that allow for a larger degree of flexibility on the part of the player than at any point in the past for World of Warcraft. And, while your concern over the feeling of obligation to run LFR is valid, and shared by others, the change you were seeking would do more harm than good.

As far as you feeling as though I've insulted you, the very best I can say in response is that we just don't agree on the definitions of a lot of words or phrases, like "being forced," "troll," "insulting," "bad mouthing," "derailing threads," etc. As I said before, this is a discussion forum. Being critical of a person's ideas or arguments isn't the same as insulting him or her. I've kept every post honest and constructive. Frankly, I'd rather you respond in kind by refuting (or acknowledging!) my points, instead of acting victimized by my savage, filthy word spew. :p
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90 Gnome Priest
17670

Or.... Normal/Heroic raids create players who are so far up themselves they are most inside out and they are polluting the player base with their selfish elitist attitudes. Saying things like "WTF pwned!11!!!" and "LTP you bad!!". Wow would be a much nicer place without these people so i think we should remove normal and heroics.

I'm not sure of the numbers but I'm pretty sure wow could suffer the lose of raiders. But if all the people who only had time LFR left then were would serious hit on the subscriptions.

Most of the normal/heroic mode raiders I know don't talk like that, but then I also don't tend to hang out with 16 year old kids.

The players who spend the most time calling others "bad" generally aren't any better themselves but they think they're tossing a smokescreen out to hide that by talking in that fashion. All it really does is attract attention and greater scrutiny.

I've ripped many a player apart in trade arguments when they start talking about others being "scrubs", "bads", etc. because a simple Armory search gives you a wealth of information about what they've accomplished - or rather, haven't.
Edited by Joynal on 11/1/2012 6:39 PM PDT
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MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Night Elf Druid
11830
I'm a raider (on my mage these days) with very little playtime. I actually appreciate having the LFR as an option for getting faster VP points than running 5-mans (assuming my LFR group is organized). Since I'm only killing about four normal-mode bosses per week at this point (I miss out on 2 of the 4 raid days per week my guild has available), I really like the fact that LFR lockouts aren't tied to normal/heroic modes. It seems to be working okay with my schedule to do LFR when I have time to fit it into my schedule more flexibly than additional normal/heroic days.

With all the daily quests and VP point grinding, all the raiders have to be doing things outside of our normal-mode & heroic-mode runs. If we couldn't run LFR for VP, then we'd still have to run 5-mans and daily quests for our VP long after we stopped getting any actual upgrades out of the 5-mans. Taking away normal/heroic raiders' ability to run LFR wouldn't fix anything, realistically.
Edited by Lissanna on 11/1/2012 6:45 PM PDT
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45 Human Warlock
4855
LFR is perfect the way it is. Nobody is forced to run LFR, since normal modes are lot faster method of gear.

I just wish the lockout for 10 vs 25m would go back to wrath level so that small guilds can enjoy content at their own pace.

I am still a firm believer of LFR ilvl requirement needs to go down to 456 or something to account for JP gear as well as heroic gear.
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90 Gnome Warlock
1565
11/01/2012 06:35 PMPosted by Zarhym
You're correct. That's why I said in my original post that I didn't want to argue semantics over, "Blizzard is forcing me to do this." Raid Finder absolutely provides a strategic advantage for progression raiders looking to increase their character power as quickly as possible, fill out set bonuses, etc. But yes, over the course of this expansion's lifecycle that should be diminished, particularly for Heroic raiders. The need to regularly run (meaning over the course of several weeks) the Raid Finder versions of upcoming Mists of Pandaria raids should feel far less crucial, if not nonexistent, for dedicated raid guilds.


It'll depend entirely on the strength of the set bonuses or trinket procs on whether or not this is true. Itemisation will also have an impact, because a slightly ilvl item with perfect itemisation could, depending on how much difference you're planning on implementing between heroic current tier and LFR next tier, be better than the heroic item as well.

Also, as I stated previously, it'll be more important for 10s than 25s because the current 25m model doesn't scale down well to the 10m format.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
11180
How does the koreans have seperate 10 & 25m lockouts but we are forced to have our lockouts together. They were also tested with double resets in FL, anyone would like to explain Blizzards reasoning in giving Koreans everything the US players want?


unlike us, the Koreans pay by the hour and not on a monthly basis, thus seperate lockouts work for them since they might pay for 6 hours a week to do 1 raid, whereas letting them have seperate locks will have them pay for 6 hours a week.
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90 Worgen Mage
11920
I personally don't see the point in the sharing of a lockout for LFR/Norm/Heroic.

Our guild is currently progressing through Norms and using LFR for a variety of benefits:

1. To gain boss mechanics experience with a little more forgiveness so it doesn't wipe our group
2. To access some moderate upgrades as we are mostly in 463-489 mixed gear at this stage
3. Valor Points - Not the main focus - but a nice bonus for 3 boss kills

The drawbacks are inevitable as we rarely have the full 25 to faceroll it, and get the tunnel vision players who ignore the mechanics completely, but the experience we gain on those same boss mechanics - even if not all of them - has no doubt saved us from countless wipes.

As indicated the only reluctance I have is that invariably (and without exception) you will get some players who simply have no idea of what is required and that can be frustrating (to say the least), but hey, who cares?

Blizz aren't there just for us. Believe it or not - LFR was designed for the non raiders not the raiders - if you are a raider and are in there - accept the drawbacks - or stay away.
Edited by Graylen on 11/1/2012 7:13 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
6655
How does the koreans have seperate 10 & 25m lockouts but we are forced to have our lockouts together. They were also tested with double resets in FL, anyone would like to explain Blizzards reasoning in giving Koreans everything the US players want?


unlike us, the Koreans pay by the hour and not on a monthly basis, thus seperate lockouts work for them since they might pay for 6 hours a week to do 1 raid, whereas letting them have seperate locks will have them pay for 6 hours a week.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but even paying by the hour, Korean pay less until you get into the 15+ hours a day range, yes?
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5 Tauren Druid
0
LFR is a place to relax and have fun and have a laugh at how you are topping meters when you really shouldn't. It's not about the gear.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
SY
8080
11/01/2012 11:06 AMPosted by Zarhym
- How badly are you really hurting your raid by not running LFR? Is your progression in normal difficulty such that upgrading from a piece of ilvl 463 gear to 476 gear is "make or break" for the entire raid? With stat inflation, the difference between these item levels is almost negligible, unless you're comparing full sets. But in the amount of time it might take you to get several upgrades via LFR, you should be getting several upgrades via normal difficulty -- and you get a head start on normal difficulty with Raid Finder always releasing at least a week later.


This paragraph seems somewhat confused. The stat budget of an item is an exponential function of its item level, not a linear function. In more concrete terms, an increase of 13 item levels will increase the stat budget of the item by roughtly 12.9%, and that is true whether going from an ilevel 450 piece to an ilevel 463 piece or from an ilevel 503 to an ilevel 516. Claiming that "stat inflation" somehow makes gear upgrades less important misses this fact.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11780
Doing LFR each week is compulsory for me and my team *shrug*
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90 Worgen Hunter
8075
LFR is good, but it isn't required to raid at all,

Took just under 2 days of casual levelling to reach 90 from 85, then 21 hours after that to reach 463 ilevel, which is raid entry level. So either leave your guild and find one that values player skill > gear or stop complaining and just sit through LFR ( which is realistically an hour long loot farm with boss mechanics that dps can tank....)
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90 Worgen Warrior
16570
11/01/2012 11:06 AMPosted by Zarhym


You are gimping your raid group by not running it. I'm sick of feeling that I have to suffer through the mess that is LFR each and every week.

Blizzard made 10 and 25s share a lockout because 25 man guilds were "forced" into running the lower skilled 10s for extra gear each week. This new system is no different but 100x worse due to the nature of LFR.


But let's discuss the issue you raise: "I run raid content in an organized group. I don't want to do LFR on top of my normal raiding, but I feel like I have to if I want to gear up as fast as possible."

The statement might be true for some, but I have a lot of follow-ups.
[ul]
- Are you in a guild that has success with Heroic raid progression? This one's pretty important, as any guild that's good enough to be farming, or at least killing several bosses in, Heroic Mogu'shan Vaults and Heart of Fear by the time Terrace of Endless Spring opens via LFR, will not likely need a single piece of gear from LFR. Terrace of Endless Spring LFR items won't be as good as your Heroic raid gear.

I've seen this line of questioning and it's disingenuous for the following reason - it assumes higher ilvl gear is more attractive than lower ilvl gear.

This is obfuscated by tier pieces, trinkets and weapons. Come on Zar, I'm sure you have access to the stats. All of those "successful heroic raiders" are hitting up LFR for *some* reason.

Here's the bottom line - there needs to be more differentiation than just ilvl between heroic and LFR pieces. For instance, LFR tier pieces should not contribute to bonuses that are also derived from normal/heroic pieces. Or, LFR trinkets should have their ICDs aggressively adjusted. If you don't expect LFR gear to be part of heroic raid progression, this theoretically hurts nobody, right?

Except, I suspect you DO want those raiders in LFR, helping out and filling in numbers, so to speak. So yeah, I don't expect to see any meaningful change.
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90 Goblin Death Knight
15405
I have so much respect for Zarhym's seemingly infinite well of patience.
Edited by Okuu on 11/1/2012 7:48 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
6030

I definitely see your point, and even I've been involved in several discussions with the developers about this concept, so I know they discuss the itemization/progression model quite a bit in their daily lives. ;)

Of note, we recently spoke about the Sigils for the legendary gem. Even in that case, they're watching closely and expect the LFR runs simply for more shots at the Sigils will tail off.


I hope that if you guys are considering a change to tier bonuses, it would just be a reduced effect or something for LFR gear. While I understand it's a strong motivation for raiders to get into LFR when they otherwise might not, it's also pretty fun to get the bonuses for players that just run LFR. I hope that we don't see the system watered down over time just to appease players who want to min/max a week or two faster than without LFR.
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90 Draenei Mage
13470
11/01/2012 01:38 PMPosted by Buttercookie
Zar said he wanted a discussion, yet seems to ignore the sensible well articulated points in favor of making fun of the OP.


Blues do this a lot. It's an easy way for them to deflect negative discussions and lets all their fanboys come out and derail the threads for them.

It is a little frustrating that I pay for the game and other blizzard games then get bad mouthed by their employees on a gaming board.

If I went to a store that I frequented and was insulted by the equivalent of a salesman, there would be much different repercussions.


Ah, yes. The everlasting question of the forums: What to do when someone responds to a suggestion with logical counterpoints and legitimate criticism?

Respond as would an injured child. Cry foul, and claim the victim.

Sir, I have worked in retail for most of my life, and the way in which Zarhym has responded to you "as a salesman" is the way in which I responded, and indeed was TRAINED to respond, to an irate customer, and never once were there any such "repercussions".

Learn to not throw a fit like my 2 year old son, and then try posting again.
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90 Orc Death Knight
11935
11/01/2012 07:52 PMPosted by Relena


Blues do this a lot. It's an easy way for them to deflect negative discussions and lets all their fanboys come out and derail the threads for them.

It is a little frustrating that I pay for the game and other blizzard games then get bad mouthed by their employees on a gaming board.

If I went to a store that I frequented and was insulted by the equivalent of a salesman, there would be much different repercussions.


Ah, yes. The everlasting question of the forums: What to do when someone responds to a suggestion with logical counterpoints and legitimate criticism?

Respond as would an injured child. Cry foul, and claim the victim.

Sir, I have worked in retail for most of my life, and the way in which Zarhym has responded to you "as a salesman" is the way in which I responded, and indeed was TRAINED to respond, to an irate customer, and never once were there any such "repercussions".

Learn to not throw a fit like my 2 year old son, and then try posting again.


I wouldn't really bother anyways, Butter has 4 alts in total, not including their level 5. All of which are level 85 with almost nothing from normal mode DS. They're just trying to destroy LFR like any other Elitist would.
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90 Tauren Death Knight
4840
You know when I came to these forums way back when I suggested that we get LFR because it helps those who want that extra hand up. Those of you smart enough to do the fight but can't seem to get the gear up yet. Those of you who disagree and think those people don't need an extra hand up and don't think we could benefit from having a great abundance of those slightly assisted but skilled people to raid with outside LFR. The idea of LFR also takes some of the burden off of guilds in gearing their raiders so they can focus more on strategy and progression.
Edited by Mælstromedos on 11/1/2012 8:13 PM PDT
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90 Gnome Warlock
1565
Isnt it awkward Z didn't address his own MVPs sentiment regarding how LFR is, with out question, required for progression raiding because of the ease in point capping?

I think its far more likely that any discussion regarding the shared lockout method was swiftly swept aside by the notion, correct as it is, that without competent raiders the vast majority of LFR runs would in fact fail. Once the sentiment spread that it was common place for them to fail it would become a wildfire blizzard could only stop by nerfing already easy content.

So essentially Z, you don't share lockouts to pander to players who otherwise are incapable of progressing on their own. Sounds like the same song and dance since ToC.


I think the fact that the forums were filled with "zomg was LFR buffed? Why so hard Blizzard?" posts after most raiding guilds went on hiatus makes it clear that even if Blizzard wanted to make it optional for progression raiders to do it, they can't afford to make it truly optional without it becoming a complete debacle.
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