Make LFR and Normal/Heroic Share same lockout

100 Night Elf Druid
13440
Blues do this a lot. It's an easy way for them to deflect negative discussions and lets all their fanboys come out and derail the threads for them.

It is a little frustrating that I pay for the game and other blizzard games then get bad mouthed by their employees on a gaming board.

If I went to a store that I frequented and was insulted by the equivalent of a salesman, there would be much different repercussions.


Butter, Zarhym hasn't once insulted you or bad mouthed you, but I will. You're an idiot. You're a self-entitled idiot with a vastly overblown sense of self-importance.

Using your salesman analogy, let's point out what you've actually been doing (not that you'll listen since you clearly want yes-men, but here we go):

Let's say a grocery store just recently converted its checkout to have an express section (why it didn't before isn't important) with the hopes of speeding up checkouts. A lot of people are taking the express section and making a bit of a line because they don't need much. What you're doing is walking towards this checkout with and yelling to everyone who can hear 'make these all checkouts share the same cashier because i don't feel like being forced to stand in line when I only have a couple things' despite there perhaps being several other checkouts with no lines. Then, when someone comes out to point out that your rage is unnecessary, you just start insulting him instead of even trying to listen.

Needless to say in your real-life situation analogy, you would likely be kicked out of the store very quickly. If you want to demand something on the forum, you're going to have to be willing to listen to criticism and perhaps hear some facts from one of the managers, as it were. If you just want yes-men to agree with everything you say, then you really shouldn't be using these forums. In fact if you consider all criticism and facts to be insults, then you'll probably have a very difficult time with life.
Reply Quote
90 Undead Rogue
10965
11/01/2012 10:06 AMPosted by Buttercookie
You are gimping your raid group by not running it. I'm sick of feeling that I have to suffer through the mess that is LFR each and every week.


>YOUR raid group is gimped
>Blizz remove EVERYONES content nao
>???
>you're retarded
Edited by Izaell on 11/2/2012 1:28 AM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Worgen Druid
11870
I enjoyed the game a bit more when 10 and 25 man were on different lockouts. People were more willing to pug 10 or 25 man, whichever one they didn't run with their guild. LFR isn't much more than a glorified target dummy fight, and I miss actually having mechanics in boss fights. I unfortunately don't have time to consistently raid.

I am all for bringing back separate lockouts for 10, 25, and LFR. It means I get to play the game a lot more. It's unfortunate that some people think they need to run everything every available raid every single week, but it is optional just like those darned dailies. A lot of the people that say they do it to "remain competitive" aren't truly competing in the high end.

More options for everyone would be in the better interest of WoW players in general. *coughtabardscough*
Reply Quote
90 Tauren Druid
14185
Please LFR is the worst thing ever and I'm sick of feeling that I have to run it to get a gear edge for normal raiding.

Please make it share a lockout so raiders are not forced into the monstrosity that you have created.


Spoiler alert, you don't have to queue for it. No one is forcing you to. It is nice to have but it is not essential to clear stuff with LFR loot.
Reply Quote
100 Pandaren Monk
9495
THERE IS A BUTTON ON MY SCREEN!

I MUST PUSH IT!
Reply Quote
100 Night Elf Druid
13260
11/01/2012 06:35 PMPosted by Zarhym
Raid Finder absolutely provides a strategic advantage for progression raiders looking to increase their character power as quickly as possible, fill out set bonuses, etc.
It isn't strategic. Strategic suggests making an interesting choice, and this choice is boiled down to (a) do I want to be better geared or (b) do I want to not be better geared. If (a) then run LFR, if (b) then don't run LFR. For anyone who is trying to progress, this is not an interesting choice, because they wanted to be better geared (the game is a gear hunt after all), so they run LFR.

Consider a real world choice. You're going for your pilot's licence and you need to get a certain number of hours to get it. The you're looking to fly a big passenger plane but it's only available to you for 10 hours a week, but there is a single engine prop plane that you can also fly for 10 hours a week. If your goal is to get your license as fast as possible, you'll fly both, even if flying the trainer (the single engine prop) really doesn't prepare you for flying the big passenger plane. Sure there is overlap, but which would you rather have as a passenger, someone who trained 100% of their time on the passenger plane (but it took them longer to get their licence), or someone who trained 50% of their time on the passenger plane (but got their licence quickly)? (I recognize that the analogy isn't perfectly parallel)

Organized raiders want to raid the raid that they're organized to raid for. For 25s that means they want to run 25s not to have to run 25s AND 10s ... just as 25s or 10s don't want to run LFR. Would you provide gear in Arenas that is superior to that which is available in Raids, so that organized raiders would feel pressure to run Arenas to gear up?

I still don't understand the rejection of the argument that 10/25 sharing a lockout with one another is not the same as 10/25 sharing a lockout with LFR. The only good reason that I can think of is that LFR would be unsuccessful if progression (as opposed to folks who just raid for fun) raiders were locked out of it, because then the pool would be both smaller and of 'less quality'.

Overall this should be a series of stepping stones ... Quest, then Heroic Dungeon, then LFR, then organized raids. Each step prepares you for the next, be it in learning how to use your class skills, developing muscle memory, or getting to know the layout of an instance before hitting it 'in earnest'.
Reply Quote
100 Pandaren Monk
9495
I don't understand this argument at all.

LFR gives people who can't do Normal a chance to get SOME decent gear, where-as people who can do Normal can go off and do Normal. Some people can do both. It's a choice anyone and everyone can make and NOTHING is forced on you.

You want to disable options for other players because you feel that you're forced to do something you are really not.

You can roll every class in the game, does that mean you're forced to? No.

I have a bowl full of candy, your argument is invalid.
Reply Quote
85 Draenei Shaman
9255
11/01/2012 10:16 AMPosted by Buttercookie
Don't ruin it for others by placing restrictions on something that is supposed to be accessible to all.


LFR is accessible to everyone. That is the point of it, for those that can't raid.

As everyone has pointed out in just about every post in this thread there is no need to run LFR if you're doing normal modes so all you normal mode raiders should not care, right?


Blizzard already posted and said this is not the only point of LFR. You don't want to run it, then don't.
Reply Quote
100 Night Elf Druid
13260
11/02/2012 04:26 AMPosted by Cloudzen
You want to disable options for other players because you feel that you're forced to do something you are really not.
Choice, even in the real world, isn't all its cracked up to be (studies have shown that, for instance, if you can choose between 3 wines you'll be happier with your choice than if you can choose between 30 wines, it's a process that some call 'manufactured happiness').

The point that people are trying to make, and I think that you're missing, is that if you are in a raid that is keen on progressing, you'll do anything and everything to make sure that you are going to progress. That means grinding out every daily, doing every quest, going into every dungeon, etc. If they gave people an option to redo daily quests (such that they weren't daily, but instead once completed they could be done again), there are going to be people who will do daily quests over and over and over again because they want to have that sliver of advantage.

It is the responsibility for a good game designer to create reasonable usage of their game, and not create a culture where the psychology of looking for an advantage results in people grinding their lives away.

Of course no one is forcing them to run LFR ... but consider this ... if there was one talent (call it A) that gave you twice the DPS of another talent (B), you wouldn't be 'forced' to choose A over B, but if you were looking for an advantage, you'd 'choose' A.
Reply Quote
100 Pandaren Monk
9495
I understand the psychology of that argument just fine, however it's unreasonable to cater to people with faux-OCD and in the process eliminate genuine options for others because they see an option and can't get over it.

This isn't Talent A over B/C balancing as your example states, this is simply gateways to gearing yourself and the idea of putting them all under the same lock is far more limiting than it is advantageous - which is really the heart of their purpose.

If someone doesn't have enough discipline not to 'grind their life away' that is far from the problem of someone such as myself, who welcomes as many choices as possible. That gets way too "Freud" if you ask me, and in crude layman's terms; "sounds like a personal problem."
Edited by Cloudzen on 11/2/2012 4:51 AM PDT
Reply Quote
100 Pandaren Shaman
12365
Please LFR is the worst thing ever and I'm sick of feeling that I have to run it to get a gear edge for normal raiding.

Please make it share a lockout so raiders are not forced into the monstrosity that you have created.


Yes... let's remove the capability of the casual raider from being able to raid at all. People who used to progression raid but can't anylonger due to real life or other things can log in whenever then can and join a LFR group when they want and raid. No strings attached... no timelines, no need to schedule raids into your life. It's a great system for those that want to raid but can't on a normal schedule or as a part of a regular group.

You shortsightedness is amazing. But then again, I guess it's all about you.

If your guild is FORCING you to do something you don't want to do? It's time to find a new guild. If you have issues with the guild policy, talk to the guild leaders about changing it. Don't run to the forums and expect Blizzard to change the game so you can avoid dealing with the issue the proper way.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Priest
13930
11/01/2012 10:06 AMPosted by Buttercookie
you don't have to do LFR so don't!


You are gimping your raid group by not running it. I'm sick of feeling that I have to suffer through the mess that is LFR each and every week.

Blizzard made 10 and 25s share a lockout because 25 man guilds were "forced" into running the lower skilled 10s for extra gear each week. This new system is no different but 100x worse due to the nature of LFR.


lower...skilled...10s....LOL. Clearly you unaware that 25 mans are easier 90% of the time, why do you think everyone wants to raid 25 man?
Reply Quote
90 Orc Shaman
16070
11/01/2012 10:08 AMPosted by Farker
every casual has 2 pieces of sha 496 gear


my main doesnt ;_; stupid pvp gear instead
Reply Quote
100 Night Elf Druid
19280
Please LFR is the worst thing ever and I'm sick of feeling that I have to run it to get a gear edge for normal raiding.

Please make it share a lockout so raiders are not forced into the monstrosity that you have created.


Stupidity and trolling all mixed into one. Even sweeter that the community manager completely owned you. How do you feel right now OP knowing you are 100% wrong and your idea is terrible?
Edited by Nightsbane on 11/2/2012 5:10 AM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Tauren Druid
12115
11/01/2012 12:00 PMPosted by Zarhym
I pointed out that you're not actually forced to do it, in that you shouldn't hit a brick wall in progression because you didn't collect enough LFR gear.


Just contributing a data point: we're at a brick wall (Stone guard 10N), and LFR gear would make a big difference. I've been lucky with LFR (in my resto set) and got five pieces, bringing me up to 471 ; most of our raiders are low-mid 460s, with a couple in the 450s.

In this gear level, killing the encounter is out of reach; the other two healers are out of mana about 2.5 minutes into the fight. The only time we've lasted over 3 minutes was one time when we were able to pug a healer in high 470 gear (but he had to leave early so we didn't have time to get up to a solid attempt). (To clarify, this is without unwanted explosions or excess chain damage, an unwanted explosion kills a few people and is always a wipe).

We do have one guild member (who isn't interested in raiding) in 480 gear; however he has done every daily quest every day and got exalted with most of the gear factions already. You may say that we have the "option" of spending 100 hours doing dailies to gear up for normal mode raiding, so we don't "have" to rely on LFR gear - but as a non hardcore guild, where we have jobs and children, most of us don't have that as a realistic option.
Reply Quote
100 Night Elf Druid
13260
This isn't Talent A over B/C balancing as your example states, this is simply gateways to gearing yourself and the idea of putting them all under the same lock is far more limiting than it is advantageous - which is really the heart of their purpose.

If someone doesn't have enough discipline not to 'grind their life away' that is far from the problem of someone such as myself, who welcomes as many choices as possible. That gets way too "Freud" if you ask me, and in crude layman's terms; "sounds like a personal problem."
But it is a matter of comparative strength, and I think that the talent example is a good one. Consider this, if talents were activated based on your raiding activity, and Talent A activated only if you ran both LFR and 10/25, you'd run LFR and 10/25 because you want that advantage. This is a rational choice. Run LFR and 10/25 and you'll be stronger than if you run 10/25 alone.

It's not Freudian at all ... <sigh> ... he'd be talking about events in early childhood and how we have irrational drives.

Limits are a good thing. If you could eat as much candy as you'd like, you'd get sick of candy soon enough ... but if you were limited, your overall experience would be better, because you'd never get sick. Limiting the amount of raiding people can do is a good thing, because it keeps the material fresher longer.

If Blizzard had, for instance, made LFR share the lockout with 10/25 at the end of Cata, do you think there would be so many people chomping on the bit practically screaming for new content? They'd have experienced the content half as much, so it'd be that much fresher for them, keeping subscribers coming back week over week, rather than cancelling their accounts until new content came out.
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
12000
This is the worst arguement I've heard in a long time.

It makes no manner of logical sense. Blizzard doesn't make you run LFR so don't push the button.

And why are you complaining about having another thing to run for loot to raid in? I mean, lfr is pretty freaking easy, jeebus.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Warlock
14375
Zarhym (and the other blues) really don't get paid enough to deal with self-entitled BS like this.

Is your progression in normal difficulty such that upgrading from a piece of ilvl 463 gear to 476 gear is "make or break" for the entire raid?
Do you want every advantage possible in the game? 'Cause you have to put in extra effort for that.

^ Should have just left it at that.

Even running LFR in full has only netted me like one item (2 if you count the fact they were both belts) - including bonus rolls! Most of my gear comes from Reputations or BoEs.

LFR does not give you a huge bonus in normals and heroics. It's not like it throws the gear at your face screaming "HERE TAKE IT". It's all based on luck.
One or two LFR epics isn't going to carry your raid to victory. SKILL is.

World first normal modes were done without LFR gear. They simply used skill.

Putting LFR and normals/heroics on the same lockout would only punish casuals who can do LFR and PUG runs (when they have the spare time - cause it is possible to not be able to commit to a raiding guild but still pug raids), or want to help out their guild by subbing in on occasion.
Edited by Lykoris on 11/2/2012 5:23 AM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Warlock
8320
Please LFR is the worst thing ever and I'm sick of feeling that I have to run it to get a gear edge for normal raiding.

Please make it share a lockout so raiders are not forced into the monstrosity that you have created.


How about no
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]