Make LFR and Normal/Heroic Share same lockout

90 Blood Elf Priest
9060
Our guild is requiring LFR, because despite having some heroic modes down and even with coins, some of us are still sporting blue's.

Furthermore, without knowing how VP gear upgrading is going to work, we are required to keep capping it until it's at 3000 so we are ready for 5.1

Why would you cap valor to get ready for 5.1. Valor is always reset and converted to justice with a new patch
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90 Pandaren Shaman
12570
Our guild is requiring LFR, because despite having some heroic modes down and even with coins, some of us are still sporting blue's.

Furthermore, without knowing how VP gear upgrading is going to work, we are required to keep capping it until it's at 3000 so we are ready for 5.1

Why would you cap valor to get ready for 5.1. Valor is always reset and converted to justice with a new patch
I don't know if this will happen this patch as there is not a new raid tier being released. I don't believe that Valor was reset in 4.1. (no new raids, just the troll heroics).

OP, people like you need to work on distinguishing "can" and "have to". Just because you CAN run LFR in addition to normal/heroic. doesn't mean you HAVE TO. If you can't stand up to your guild, that is more of a personal problem.

I don't understand how it is a monstrosity. It has the same bosses as normal/heroic, just easier to account for the fact that you are grouped up with random people. If you are talking about the overall quality/attitude of players in LFR being a monstrosity, you don't HAVE TO (remember this?) run it.

Also, the fact that you are hiding behind an alt tells us that your main isn't so great anyway. Stop acting like LFR is so far beneath you.
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90 Worgen Priest
16105
11/01/2012 11:06 AMPosted by Zarhym


You are gimping your raid group by not running it. I'm sick of feeling that I have to suffer through the mess that is LFR each and every week.

Blizzard made 10 and 25s share a lockout because 25 man guilds were "forced" into running the lower skilled 10s for extra gear each week. This new system is no different but 100x worse due to the nature of LFR.

Actually, the new system is quite a bit different than the 10- and 25-player lockout situation. A much greater percentage of the population will experience each new raid using Raid Finder, compared to normal and (especially) Heroic difficulties. The loot system is vastly different in Raid Finder to account for matchmade players, the dungeons are often split up differently for LFR (i.e. Dragon Soul in two parts), and the quality of loot that drops is lower. Given all of this, the cons largely outweigh the pros in your suggestion to make all difficulties of a raid dungeon share lockouts.

But let's discuss the issue you raise: "I run raid content in an organized group. I don't want to do LFR on top of my normal raiding, but I feel like I have to if I want to gear up as fast as possible."

The statement might be true for some, but I have a lot of follow-ups.

    - Are you in a guild that has success with Heroic raid progression? This one's pretty important, as any guild that's good enough to be farming, or at least killing several bosses in, Heroic Mogu'shan Vaults and Heart of Fear by the time Terrace of Endless Spring opens via LFR, will not likely need a single piece of gear from LFR. Terrace of Endless Spring LFR items won't be as good as your Heroic raid gear.

    - Is your guild demanding that you run LFR every week for the chance at some upgrades you haven't made via normal difficulty yet? In your post you say we're forcing you into LFR, but that's not true. I won't argue semantics, but if you're min/maxing your character for every competitive edge possible, that's a playstyle choice.

    - How badly are you really hurting your raid by not running LFR? Is your progression in normal difficulty such that upgrading from a piece of ilvl 463 gear to 476 gear is "make or break" for the entire raid? With stat inflation, the difference between these item levels is almost negligible, unless you're comparing full sets. But in the amount of time it might take you to get several upgrades via LFR, you should be getting several upgrades via normal difficulty -- and you get a head start on normal difficulty with Raid Finder always releasing at least a week later.

Certainly there's a psychology to hunting down every advantage you can, and the endgame is largely about that. But there are a lot of nuances in the raid progression system to ensure that:

    A) Raid Finder has a healthy pool of players from which to choose
    B) Organized raiders who regularly tackle Heroic difficulty will have virtually no need to run Raid Finder much at all this expansion (since a new tier's LFR ilvl won't outdo the previous tier's Heroic ilvl)
    C) Organized raiders who make progress each week on normal difficulty shouldn't hit any pass/fail gear checks and lose because they're not running LFR every week.
    D) You're not forced by the game (AT ALL) to keep running LFR each week for gear if you want to be successful in the higher difficulties.

I asked a lot of questions because you're demanding a very dramatic change to the game, but you've shared almost no details regarding why this change is completely necessary for everyone, and you're posting on an account that gives me absolutely no insight into your level-90 progression.


Here we are in patch 5.2. Heroic raiders may not run LFR if they are fortunate enough to have all toons in their raid geared as possible by the time each releases respectively. As much as some would argue the word "playstyle choice" you could also argue that ONLY running LFR's is also such a choice. There is little merit in a system designed to run the content twice if it doesn't include a viable means within guilds to assist other raid groups of the other size anymore. The only reason I see this has continued is because Blizzard likes PVE players to do a little extra carrying so the exclusive LFR players get their chances at gear. On average, these are not the sort of players that have the time or patience to fail at something and have to try again, whereas even an heroic raider who is willing to pug 500+ attempts on a challenging encounter will be even less patient with these matters.

Lets analyze:

A. If LFR has such a healthy pool of players, I would like to know why we still have hour long queues

B. T15 LFR may not have higher ilvl than T14 Heroic, but unless you are in full BIS gear, there are likely still upgrades for you, if not the frustration of trying to keep 2pc Heroic T14 for the time being, you have 1 T15 normal piece from the initial clear, and now you need to replace a 496 T14 piece with an LFR piece for a 2 set bonus. In heroic raiding there is simply no way around that, other than to run LFR. Even the heroic version of that 496 piece although an upgrade is still not going to be worth it compared to 2 set T15 for most classes.

C. Organized normal guilds, I can't speak entirely on their behalf, but I can observe. You should check out server progress on servers like mine where we are lucky if there are 2 or 3 guilds even doing heroics. After downing heroic Elegon for example, I checked server progress only to find that there were 15! guilds stuck on the normal version of that encounter. After the hotfix, they hit the same artificial wall on Garalon. I don't see an issue with this personally, but to a normal mode guild that might only raid 2 days a week on the weekend, LFR makes a HUGE difference in a dps race. They have NO heroic gear afterall making matters even more difficult for them.

D. The game does not FORCE...? Ok there is technicality, and then there is reality. I don't make the rules. You can take that argument up with the true top end guilds.
If you are trying to be competitive, although a playstyle choice perceived by some, that is the reality of the situation. I can CHOOSE to NOT run LFRs, I can also choose to not run my dailys, do pet battles alternatively for tokens, hell I might even decide to NOT Valor Cap this week for some stupid reason.
My guild can also CHOOSE to bring someone who does these things, because its a natural th ing for competitive guilds to expect players to be putting forth effort.

Sharing a lockout and having 3 raid sizes may not be the best suggestion for some people, but its certainly a better idea than doing NOTHING to resolve this problem.

If you stood by this wording and scaled the ilvl's properly, I really think it would go a long way. Set bonuses overlapping also cause too many of the same quality of life issues.

I have debated this issue with many of my guildmates who feel LFR should share a lockout, and although I disagree with that solution, it would in fact solve the problem, at least from that point of view. The one thing we did in fact agree on:

HEROIC RAIDERS DO NOT WANT TO FEEL THAT THEY NEED TO RUN LFR
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