Make LFR and Normal/Heroic Share same lockout

While I agree with Zarhym, at the same time I do not.

It is unfortunately the mindset of the player base is to min/max whether they are hardcore or casual. It is the same reason some specs are deemed "not viable" even though they may only do 2% less damage overall than "viable" spec. I think it is the side effect of prolonged exposure to the old talent tree system as well as the wealth of knowledge that is provided to us through theorycrafters and tools such as askmrrobot.com

While in a perfect world Zarhym would be 100% right, the fact of the matter is the WoW culture has been permeated by a hardcore mentality over the course of the last 8 years. We all feel the pressure to be doing everything possible to get even +1 to a particular stat from our peers. We are treated by the community as we are not doing our part to be successful if we do not participate in LFR, even in the most casual of raiding guilds. Let me reiterate I agree with Zarhym that the reality is mechanics and knowledge are far more important than gear, however the only tangible means to measure that is through gear.

So here is the important question...

How do we change the majority culture in WoW to reflect the realities of raiding of the many instead of mirroring the culture of the hardcore minority?
Edited by Keihndeth on 11/1/2012 12:13 PM PDT
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90 Tauren Death Knight
4840
LFR isn't the same it is a training ground. A sample. Why lock you to the real thing when it is just a sample?
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90 Blood Elf Mage
10445
Please LFR is the worst thing ever and I'm sick of feeling that I have to run it to get a gear edge for normal raiding.

Please make it share a lockout so raiders are not forced into the monstrosity that you have created.


lol.

lol.

and more lol.

1. As others have said, you don't have to do it. It's not Blizzard's fault that YOU forced YOURSELF to do the raids in their current system.

2. Anti QQ 101- Explain your reasoning and you'll get less heat from everbody else. Your post doesnt tell me why you think LFR is a "monstrosity." Personally, I think it's one of the best things in the game (though I haven't been gearing this character yet).

3. Thanks for the amusing read. >_>
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89 Blood Elf Paladin
6630
11/01/2012 12:07 PMPosted by Zarhym
Cause you have to put in extra effort for that.


There is nothing wrong with putting in effort to this game. When that extra effort amounts to being placed in a group with 24 random people and wiping on a boss 8 times in a row due to trolls and afkers and every other good thing we see in randoms, its not extra effort its a aggravating test on ones patience. That the individual has little to no impact on the groups success.

To answer your questions in your first post Z since you like to derail and troll and get paid to do it to your paying customers.

...

I'll leave it here, then, since I've derailed your simple demand thread by... talking to you logically about it. (?)


That was in response to your second post in the thread Z, and ya buddy you knew what you were doing with it and got the responses you wanted of the 11/10 and lolol Zarhym owned that guy blah blah blah. It was rude and not an open dialogue.

Posted by Zarhym

LFR is accessible to everyone. That is the point of it, for those that can't raid.

As everyone has pointed out in just about every post in this thread there is no need to run LFR if you're doing normal modes so all you normal mode raiders should not care, right?

I'm especially unsure what point you're trying to make here, as it seems like you're invalidating your own argument.

While I don't agree with him, his point was pretty obvious.

His point was that there's no harm in making them share a lockout. LFR was created to allow non raiders to see end game content. If you're not raiding normal and heroic raids, it won't affect you, as you'll still be doing LFR just the same. If you are raiding normal and heroic raids, you're not one of the players who LFR was aimed at and shouldn't care about "missing out" on it as long as other raiders are as well.

The biggest flaw with this plan, of course, is that for decent guilds that aren't hardcore about progression, you'll run LFR for a while before even attempting normals, as 6 chances at 476 loot is going to help you clear content better than 1 chance at 489 loot (particulary the weapons). It also kills pugs, as people aren't going to forego LFR for a week just to maybe kill one boss and then have the raid fall apart, at least not until they're mostly geared out in LFR gear.


Seems non "professional forum posters" understood my point just fine.
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90 Worgen Druid
7980
I've heard suggestions that LFR shouldn't drop loot. And if the intent is truly to let more casual players experience the content, then that could work. But it would be different from every other place in the game, which is: player kills thing, player gets loot.

My solution: reduce the ilvl of LFR gear to that of Heroics. That way, there's truly no benefit of running LFR OVER Heroics. Raiders could just pick their preference. If they prefer heroics, run those. If they like LFR, run that.


Yeah, kinda like this ^

Except I'd turn LFR in a super eficient Justice/Valor farming machine with no loot drops.

1) You don't have to run it over and over again in order to possibly get edge on gear;
2) Players who want to see the raid get to see it;
3) It would ease the process of capping said currencies and
4) Would allow trainning a fight meanwhile.

I mostly did LFR on the previous expansion to get tier bonuses. It felt mandatory, yes, by that point. When LFR starts to drop them, it will be mandatory again, unless you are QUITE lucky with normal mode.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
10640
We already lost the ability to run 10 man and 25 man in the same period, now you want to bring LFR in to that loop?

/boggle
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90 Troll Warrior
0
A single item 13 ilvls higher, at this point in the game, amounts to less than 1% increase in attack power (the one example calculation I made came out to 0.59% specifically). You would need a large number of upgrades to have any noticeable improvement in your performance.
Edited by Sabatieni on 11/1/2012 12:22 PM PDT
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90 Human Monk
12725
11/01/2012 12:15 PMPosted by Buttercookie
There is nothing wrong with putting in effort to this game. When that extra effort amounts to being placed in a group with 24 random people and wiping on a boss 8 times in a row due to trolls and afkers and every other good thing we see in randoms, its not extra effort its a aggravating test on ones patience. That the individual has little to no impact on the groups success.


So, you like or dislike LFR?

11/01/2012 12:15 PMPosted by Buttercookie
Seems non "professional forum posters" understood my point just fine.


I doubt anyone here undestood your point, because you do not have one.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10080
11/01/2012 12:07 PMPosted by Zarhym
Right. So it's a choice you're making for every advantage in the game. Do you want every advantage possible in the game? 'Cause you have to put in extra effort for that.


Why is there no option to like Blue posts? Because I totally would with this one.
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90 Blood Elf Warrior
13815
Please LFR is the worst thing ever and I'm sick of feeling that I have to run it to get a gear edge for normal raiding.

Please make it share a lockout so raiders are not forced into the monstrosity that you have created.


You know, back pre-MoP, I would have been okay with this suggestion, but not for the reasons the OP is suggesting it. There was nothing fun about running LFR, knowing it's "the best" gear you personally have access to, only to lose an upgrade to someone in a raiding guild that went and replaced that exact same piece of gear hours/days later with an upgrade from the regular version of the raid.

Now, with the new loot system, that's no longer an issue at all, and there's zero need to make them share a lockout. If you feel like you "have" to do anything in this game, maybe it's time for a vacation...
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90 Human Paladin
16635
Our guild is requiring LFR, because despite having some heroic modes down and even with coins, some of us are still sporting blue's.

Furthermore, without knowing how VP gear upgrading is going to work, we are required to keep capping it until it's at 3000 so we are ready for 5.1 Sad to say, but LFR gives MORE valor points than actual raiding does. It's literally the fastest and most efficent way to VP cap. 180 valor for a full clear of faceroll LFR MSV, compared to a clear of MSV normal or heroic which only nets 150 VP. LFR full clear takes an hour tops because of what a faceroll joke that is. It's clearly the superior VP farming method over extra dailies or heroics. If this point right here doesn't ever change. we'll be running LFR with no need for gear until the end of expansoin just for the most efficient route to VP capping with minimum amount of time spent.


And none of this is Blizzard's fault, it's your guild's and your own for making the choice to be in a progressive raiding guild. It's as simple as that (no, really, it is).

Also, I don't follow your "It's faster to just do LFR and cap that way" logic either. I can do two heroics in about 30 minutes, which nets me 120 VP for the first time, 80 every time after. I usually end up spending 30-45 minutes doing an LFR run with a pug for 90 VP. I'm not seeing how doing Raids is the superior method of VP farming.

That logic is also broken, as even by casually doing a Heroic, Scenario, and two sets of Dalies a day with the intermittent LFR run thrown in, I end up capping my VP by Friday or Saturday. You act as though you must cap your VP at the start of the week, even if you don't intend to spend it on anything that particular week. Where in the hell is the sense in that? Does your guild require you to cap VP on multiple alts, thus requiring you to cap as quickly as possible?

If that's the case, I still fail to see how that's Blizzard's problem. As Zarhym, and anyone with a shred of logic and common sense will tell you, this is not something that is enforced by Blizzard or made mandatory by the game. You, and I cannot express this enough, made the conscious choice to join a progressive raiding guild. There are advantages and disadvantages to this. The advantages being the obvious privileged of seeing content before most other people, but the disadvantage being you are obligated to play the game a bit more often then most people (at least while you're progressing), and generally must do content you may not enjoy in order to retain your spot in the guild.

As others said: This is not something that Blizzard directly supports, and they will not directly cater to the game to make it easier and more enjoyable for you. If you are doing something you don't enjoy, stop doing it. If the disadvantages are that much of a con to you, than maybe the advantages of being in a progression guild isn't worth it. It's the conclusion I came to back in late BC and early Wrath, and I will never go back to being in a progression-minded raiding guild or team again because I didn't enjoy to do the things that were expected of me to retain that spot in the guild.
Edited by Bladesyphon on 11/1/2012 12:28 PM PDT
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Community Manager
11/01/2012 12:15 PMPosted by Buttercookie
That was in response to your second post in the thread Z, and ya buddy you knew what you were doing with it and got the responses you wanted of the 11/10 and lolol Zarhym owned that guy blah blah blah. It was rude and not an open dialogue.

You're making big assertions and suggesting (to put it mildly) that we change the lockout system for everyone. If you're serious about this change at all -- and not just trolling -- I reserve the right to review your reasoning in context in order to formulate an answer to your suggestion. In other words, regardless of what you think my job entails, I'd certainly be of less use if I can't even point out logical fallacies in design suggestions, for fear that that'd be rude.

If you'd rather me placate you and say "thanks for the suggestion," sorry. This is a discussion forum. The dialog goes both ways.

While I don't agree with him, his point was pretty obvious.

His point was that there's no harm in making them share a lockout. LFR was created to allow non raiders to see end game content. If you're not raiding normal and heroic raids, it won't affect you, as you'll still be doing LFR just the same. If you are raiding normal and heroic raids, you're not one of the players who LFR was aimed at and shouldn't care about "missing out" on it as long as other raiders are as well.

The biggest flaw with this plan, of course, is that for decent guilds that aren't hardcore about progression, you'll run LFR for a while before even attempting normals, as 6 chances at 476 loot is going to help you clear content better than 1 chance at 489 loot (particulary the weapons). It also kills pugs, as people aren't going to forego LFR for a week just to maybe kill one boss and then have the raid fall apart, at least not until they're mostly geared out in LFR gear.


Seems non "professional forum posters" understood my point just fine.

Yes, many of us understood your point just fine, including the poster you quoted here. And like this poster, many of us saw the flaws in it.
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90 Worgen Hunter
9675
11/01/2012 12:21 PMPosted by Kewngpow
There is nothing wrong with putting in effort to this game. When that extra effort amounts to being placed in a group with 24 random people and wiping on a boss 8 times in a row due to trolls and afkers and every other good thing we see in randoms, its not extra effort its a aggravating test on ones patience. That the individual has little to no impact on the groups success.


So, you like or dislike LFR?

Seems non "professional forum posters" understood my point just fine.


I doubt anyone here undestood your point, because you do not have one.


You don't have to agree with a point to understand it. He made a point and there's some truth to it, but he just hasn't thought it all through and is only thinking of himself.
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90 Human Monk
12725
11/01/2012 12:36 PMPosted by Wasabisauce
Maybe it's because you don't agree with him about the lockout changes that he's upset and thinks you're trolling.


We all know trolls don't like to be contradicted.
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90 Troll Shaman
12065
You wrote a non-constructive, non-information containing OP and got a blue response. Then you are overly rude to said blue responder. Do you want blues to keep responding? I'd change my attitude if I were you.

And while I see the point you are making, I think there would be LOADS of complaining from people run normals if LFR was taken away. I know guilds that use it as basic (VERY BASIC) training to get an idea of what to expect (a step up from watching videos).

Edit: I never write well on the first try.
Edited by Dodecanone on 11/1/2012 12:41 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
UE
19100
Right. So it's a choice you're making for every advantage in the game. Do you want every advantage possible in the game? 'Cause you have to put in extra effort for that.
I wish this was stated more often.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
12315
11/01/2012 11:12 AMPosted by Kwikness
Anyone else find it funny that the OP got pwned by Zarhym?


um, Zarhym wtfpwn's everyone.....just sayin
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90 Draenei Paladin
8255
While I agree with Zarhym, at the same time I do not.

It is unfortunately the mindset of the player base is to min/max whether they are hardcore or casual. It is the same reason some specs are deemed "not viable" even though they may only do 2% less damage overall than "viable" spec. I think it is the side effect of prolonged exposure to the old talent tree system as well as the wealth of knowledge that is provided to us through theorycrafters and tools such as askmrrobot.com

While in a perfect world Zarhym would be 100% right, the fact of the matter is the WoW culture has been permeated by a hardcore mentality over the course of the last 8 years. We all feel the pressure to be doing everything possible to get even +1 to a particular stat from our peers. We are treated by the community as we are not doing our part to be successful if we do not participate in LFR, even in the most casual of raiding guilds. Let me reiterate I agree with Zarhym that the reality is mechanics and knowledge are far more important than gear, however the only tangible means to measure that is through gear.

So here is the important question...

How do we change the majority culture in WoW to reflect the realities of raiding of the many instead of mirroring the culture of the hardcore minority?


It's not actually a WoW thing, it's a couple psychological aspects that the outside world brings to it. Evidenced by the hand holding that many games, movies, schools/parents, etc. do these days. Our typical habit of being "sheep" when it comes to actually thinking for ourselves, is what makes these things happen. This is evidenced in this game by the QQ about daily quests and this topic, where people feel as though they HAVE to do something optional (just like the choice to do all daily quests, the source of the formers complaints).

Upsetting this established psychology is met by complaints and demands. As we can all see from this forum alone.
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90 Draenei Warrior
13230
"Insert typical PUG group situation here" <-- So this is why LFR should share a lockout with 10/25 raids?

So Blizzard is responsible for these situations? Penalize everyone because a handful of selected people can't act mannered in a group of strangers? Make sense
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