Make LFR and Normal/Heroic Share same lockout

90 Human Priest
0
i like raiding. ill raid LFR and reg and i dont feel forced. hell id run LFR, 10s and 25s if i could. and 40s too if they brought thoes back.

raiding is fun. dosent feel forced to me...
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100 Human Paladin
10625
Zarhym, thanks for the detailed reply.

I agree with the OP in some ways. I have been very irritated that my 3 night a week raid schedule has been effectively upped to 4, so that I can make my guild's LFR run on tuesdays. I raid in my guild specifically to enjoy a light raiding schedule and I really dislike feeling as though I'm raiding on 4 nights a week, even if the 4th is a casual LFR run.

11/01/2012 11:06 AMPosted by Zarhym
B) Organized raiders who regularly tackle Heroic difficulty will have virtually no need to run Raid Finder much at all this expansion (since a new tier's LFR ilvl won't outdo the previous tier's Heroic ilvl)


You assume that the ilvl change solves all problems. It helps, but it doesn't magically remove our desire to do LFR.

1) LFR will remain relevant through this particular tier because it is the first one.
LFR is relevant right now. For sure. My guild for an example is 3/6 H, and 25 man (so we get bonus loots), and at least a third of my raid could still use an upgrade from LFR just due to RNG. We're still going in there! And, when you release HOF and Terrace LFR, I will certainly be in there tons to grab my tier. I have to plan all these LFRs into my week. I know this is a unique situation right now because it is the very beginning of the expansion. I am hoping that you guys' plans to devalue LFR for raiders kick in in a couple tiers with the ilvl changes; however, at this very moment, you should really believe that raiders of ALL flavors are running it.

2) Valor Points.
LFR represents a larger quantity of VP than even raiding. VP is important now for gear, and will be important in the future for our upgrade paths; the cap is pretty far away by design. As long as that holds true, and as long as LFR rewards so much VP, we'll all be running LFR.

3) Not every HM raider hits a new tier in Best in Slot.
You guys are opening instances very quickly. I appreciate that we are being provided with lots of raids, but you must understand that there are tons of times when LFR - at that single moment in time - represents an upgrade path for a given raider even if they are clearing a lot of heroic mode bosses.

4) Procs and tier bonuses will be devalued, but once in a while there might come one that's OP.
You also assume that the ilvl change will completely devalue LFR gear. I hope this will be true, but I suspect the devs - who try as hard as they can - will still occasionally throw in a very op set bonus or trinket proc. These things just happen.

All these things combined, I just don't see LFR coming off my schedule anytime soon. I plan to consider it pretty much required for weeks after the launch of a new tier, even with the change. And while I appreciate the devs trying very hard to retune the gear to make it less valuable for hardcore raiders, that has only solved the problem of "upgrade ALL your pieces to LFR gear." I don't think it has solved the problem of "upgrade a couple pieces to LFR gear when a new LFR comes out."

You can expect raiders of all flavors, from normal mode raiders to heroic mode raiders, to be in LFR.

Yes, it certainly does feel less required than it did in Cataclysm, and I am happy that I'll be upgrading a lot less current raid gear to LFR gear. But I don't understand why the devs think that we are just going to magically stop running LFR - that simply is not happening now.

Now, as for the next tier..... I have hopes that your ilvl changes will kick in. I certainly hope I'm in a position where I can look at LFR and think, "well, that has no upgrades for me." So I support what you guys have done here with the ilvl adjustments and I have optimism for the future.

But you have to understand why we're running MSV, HOF and Terrace LFRs, and why the need to do this is just blindingly obvious to anyone raiding.
Edited by Anafielle on 11/1/2012 1:14 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Warrior
13230
This is a joke topic. The OP is mocking those people who made threads complaining about dailies (optional content) being "forced"

I can't believe that went over everyone's heads. Even Zarhym

Edit: Actually yeah....I can believe it.


Joke topic or not, it is still a valuable suggestion, is it a good suggestion? Maybe not, but every ideas are right to suggest, even if they don't make any sense.

This isn't a war, its a discussion, it causes no harm and its entertaining, everyone has the right to voice their opinions.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
12170
@ Zar --

I don't see much discussion here. I just see two sides telling the other that it's wrong.

1) Would you care to comment on the numerous posts of people who actually raid, who point out LFR reinforces bad habits? People that point out LFR has simply taken place of the split ilvl system that existed in Wrath and forced raiding guilds to run the same content multiple times a week.

2) Would you care to comment on LFR being setup as an intro raid for people who don't want to raid?

3) Would you care to comment on the time commitment for those "casuals" who don't have the time to put together a normal raid, yet don't see the irony of spending upwards of an hour and a half to down a single boss? (I am in hardcore raid content, and I don't have that kind of time commitment LFR takes).

4) Would you care to comment on the lack of non-LFR alternatives for casuals -- especially in light of having a tool like Scenarios at your disposal which seems to be a much better fit for people who don't have a lot of time and don't want to raid or organize a group? (Itemize these things and give a decent reward. They're only getting panned right now because they are by and large a waste of time).

5) Would you care to comment on the massive amount of players that leave LFR after one boss kill that contributes to added time in LFR for everyone else?

6) Would you care to comment on mechanics where 1 person can grief an entire LFR?

These are all open for debate. And despite your many responses in this thread, I have yet to see you address, discuss, or otherwise pontificate on any of these issues.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8955
I still want to know why they were giving the koreans the superior raiding model and leaving us with scraps...
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90 Tauren Warrior
16345
LFR shouldn't drop loot, LFR should be about seeing the content like it was said to be about.
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90 Night Elf Druid
13175
Please LFR is the worst thing ever and I'm sick of feeling that I have to run it to get a gear edge for normal raiding.

Please make it share a lockout so raiders are not forced into the monstrosity that you have created.


Level 85 toon complaining about LFR.

Trollmeter 0/10.

Every person here telling you that you don't have to run LFR is correct. These are options provided to you. If you feel that you need to run LFR to gear for progression, it's your perception or guild requirements. As was once said, Blizzard isn't holding a gun to your head demanding you do something. You are at a buffet line, take what you want -- and come back if you liked it.

Cripes, now I'm hungry.
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89 Blood Elf Paladin
6630
No I was not posting this as a joke topic. Sorry :(

@ Zar --

I don't see much discussion here. I just see two sides telling the other that it's wrong.

1) Would you care to comment on the numerous posts of people who actually raid, who point out LFR reinforces bad habits? People that point out LFR has simply taken place of the split ilvl system that existed in Wrath and forced raiding guilds to run the same content multiple times a week.

2) Would you care to comment on LFR being setup as an intro raid for people who don't want to raid?

3) Would you care to comment on the time commitment for those "casuals" who don't have the time to put together a normal raid, yet don't see the irony of spending upwards of an hour and a half to down a single boss? (I am in hardcore raid content, and I don't have that kind of time commitment LFR takes).

4) Would you care to comment on the lack of non-LFR alternatives for casuals -- especially in light of having a tool like Scenarios at your disposal which seems to be a much better fit for people who don't have a lot of time and don't want to raid or organize a group? (Itemize these things and give a decent reward. They're only getting panned right now because they are by and large a waste of time).

5) Would you care to comment on the massive amount of players that leave LFR after one boss kill that contributes to added time in LFR for everyone else?

6) Would you care to comment on mechanics where 1 person can grief an entire LFR?

These are all open for debate. And despite your many responses in this thread, I have yet to see you address, discuss, or otherwise pontificate on any of these issues.


I would also add in off spec gearing. Even once you completely out gear LFR in your main spec there is a really good chance you still need upgrades for your off spec.

I'm sure there are many people like me that play tank as a primary role in raids. Blizzard likes to always toss in a single tank fight or two in each tier. Same thing goes for some healing comps in guilds going from 3 healing a certain fight to only 2 healing the next fight.
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90 Human Priest
0
11/01/2012 01:16 PMPosted by Mandulis
I still want to know why they were giving the koreans the superior raiding model and leaving us with scraps...


they pay by the hour in korea, not by the month...
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90 Night Elf Druid
8200
They should just remove all this gear as drops and purchases and just give everyone a flat overall iLevel that increases each week all by itself. That way I can just do the stuff I like and not worry about doing anything else that I perceive as being beneficial to my gearset, just because I happen to want the best gear I can get.

I would be fine with this. Gear is a tool to me and I raid because I like it, not because that is where the "epics" drop. Back in BC when the progression guild I was in was progressing in BT, we still did Kara for the fun of it. I had hundreds of hundreds of badges of which I didnt bother buying gems and selling them with because I had enough gold, I just did Kara because I enjoyed running it with friends. These happen to also be the same friends that keep me playing today, otherwise I would have left four years ago. We are not as "hard core" as we used to be, yet we are fine with that and even without the LFR system we would be having fun. As long as we can come back later, even the next expansion to see the content of which we was not up to par with when it was current.

For myself it is not about the gear, it is the experience and the gear is just a reminder of ones journey. And in the MMO, the experience better involve tackling challenges with other players and not just solo based content.

11/01/2012 11:12 AMPosted by Kwikness
Anyone else find it funny that the OP got pwned by Zarhym?

I didnt notice any pwning.
Edited by Noctemtenchi on 11/1/2012 1:47 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8955
11/01/2012 01:20 PMPosted by Bigscreen
I still want to know why they were giving the koreans the superior raiding model and leaving us with scraps...


they pay by the hour in korea, not by the month...


...and?
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90 Troll Mage
10795
I will definitely be forcing my guild to do LFR at the beginning of every raid week, like I do now.

It's the only way some people in my guild will ever raid with others.
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90 Draenei Shaman
17255
Zarhym, thanks for the detailed reply.

I agree with the OP in some ways. I have been very irritated that my 3 night a week raid schedule has been effectively upped to 4, so that I can make my guild's LFR run on tuesdays. I raid in my guild specifically to enjoy a light raiding schedule and I really dislike feeling as though I'm raiding on 4 nights a week, even if the 4th is a casual LFR run.

B) Organized raiders who regularly tackle Heroic difficulty will have virtually no need to run Raid Finder much at all this expansion (since a new tier's LFR ilvl won't outdo the previous tier's Heroic ilvl)


You assume that the ilvl change solves all problems. It helps, but it doesn't magically remove our desire to do LFR.

1) LFR will remain relevant through this particular tier because it is the first one.
LFR is relevant right now. For sure. My guild for an example is 3/6 H, and 25 man (so we get bonus loots), and at least a third of my raid could still use an upgrade from LFR just due to RNG. We're still going in there! And, when you release HOF and Terrace LFR, I will certainly be in there tons to grab my tier. I have to plan all these LFRs into my week. I know this is a unique situation right now because it is the very beginning of the expansion. I am hoping that you guys' plans to devalue LFR for raiders kick in in a couple tiers with the ilvl changes; however, at this very moment, you should really believe that raiders of ALL flavors are running it.

2) Valor Points.
LFR represents a larger quantity of VP than even raiding. VP is important now for gear, and will be important in the future for our upgrade paths; the cap is pretty far away by design. As long as that holds true, and as long as LFR rewards so much VP, we'll all be running LFR.

3) Not every HM raider hits a new tier in Best in Slot.
You guys are opening instances very quickly. I appreciate that we are being provided with lots of raids, but you must understand that there are tons of times when LFR - at that single moment in time - represents an upgrade path for a given raider even if they are clearing a lot of heroic mode bosses.

4) Procs and tier bonuses will be devalued, but once in a while there might come one that's OP.
You also assume that the ilvl change will completely devalue LFR gear. I hope this will be true, but I suspect the devs - who try as hard as they can - will still occasionally throw in a very op set bonus or trinket proc. These things just happen.

All these things combined, I just don't see LFR coming off my schedule anytime soon. I plan to consider it pretty much required for weeks after the launch of a new tier, even with the change. And while I appreciate the devs trying very hard to retune the gear to make it less valuable for hardcore raiders, that has only solved the problem of "upgrade ALL your pieces to LFR gear." I don't think it has solved the problem of "upgrade a couple pieces to LFR gear when a new LFR comes out."

You can expect raiders of all flavors, from normal mode raiders to heroic mode raiders, to be in LFR.

Yes, it certainly does feel less required than it did in Cataclysm, and I am happy that I'll be upgrading a lot less current raid gear to LFR gear. But I don't understand why the devs think that we are just going to magically stop running LFR - that simply is not happening now.

Now, as for the next tier..... I have hopes that your ilvl changes will kick in. I certainly hope I'm in a position where I can look at LFR and think, "well, that has no upgrades for me." So I support what you guys have done here with the ilvl adjustments and I have optimism for the future.

But you have to understand why we're running MSV, HOF and Terrace LFRs, and why the need to do this is just blindingly obvious to anyone raiding.


Quoting this in hopes that someone listens. Zar said he wanted a discussion, yet seems to ignore the sensible well articulated points in favor of making fun of the OP.
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90 Pandaren Warrior
16560
11/01/2012 01:33 PMPosted by Act
Quoting this in hopes that someone listens. Zar said he wanted a discussion, yet seems to ignore the sensible well articulated points in favor of making fun of the OP.


Having a different opinion than the OP isn't making fun of him.

Honestly, even though the OP is completely 100% wrong, it's an opinion all the same.

People don't have to play the game this way unless they're trying to play the game in a rather hard core way. Playing in that manner then complaining about playing in that manner is what draws the snark.
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89 Blood Elf Paladin
6630
11/01/2012 01:33 PMPosted by Act
Zar said he wanted a discussion, yet seems to ignore the sensible well articulated points in favor of making fun of the OP.


Blues do this a lot. It's an easy way for them to deflect negative discussions and lets all their fanboys come out and derail the threads for them.

It is a little frustrating that I pay for the game and other blizzard games then get bad mouthed by their employees on a gaming board.

If I went to a store that I frequented and was insulted by the equivalent of a salesman, there would be much different repercussions.
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90 Draenei Monk
11665
11/01/2012 11:12 AMPosted by Kwikness
Anyone else find it funny that the OP got pwned by Zarhym?


I do.

I <3 Z.
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Soooo basically because your group wants to almost out gear the content before running the actual content the rest of us have to suffer because you don't want to run lfr?
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90 Draenei Shaman
13860

2) Valor Points.
LFR represents a larger quantity of VP than even raiding. VP is important now for gear, and will be important in the future for our upgrade paths; the cap is pretty far away by design. As long as that holds true, and as long as LFR rewards so much VP, we'll all be running LFR.

It will take 120 dailies per week to cap valor in addition to points acquired from raiding, or making sure you do one heroic per day (assuming you clear the full 16 raid bosses, 4 of which aren't available yet) plus 8 dailies. If you do 5 LFR sections instead you only need 66 dailies per week. Since LFR also gives you the chance at upgrades at the moment, it's a better return on time, even if you're short 330 valor per week (to be made up elsewhere).

I think the problem here is more that in Cataclysm it was possible to get at or near the weekly valor cap via a full raid clear, whereas at the moment it only gets you 40% of the way.

4) Procs and tier bonuses will be devalued, but once in a while there might come one that's OP.
You also assume that the ilvl change will completely devalue LFR gear. I hope this will be true, but I suspect the devs - who try as hard as they can - will still occasionally throw in a very op set bonus or trinket proc. These things just happen.

Currently the T14 2 & 4 piece bonuses for Elemental give a ~3400 dps boost (1100 for 2pc, 2400 for 4pc, and yes I know they don't add up). This means getting an LFR item to make your 2pc or 4pc set can be the equivalent of a 366/766 Int upgrade, which is much higher than the difference between LFR gear & valor point/offset/heroic dungeon gear.
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100 Blood Elf Monk
13105
2) Valor Points.
LFR represents a larger quantity of VP than even raiding. VP is important now for gear, and will be important in the future for our upgrade paths; the cap is pretty far away by design. As long as that holds true, and as long as LFR rewards so much VP, we'll all be running LFR.
While it's true that LFR is one of the more efficient ways to farm valor, I wouldn't say that makes it required any more than challenge modes (which are more efficient for a skilled group.)

4) Procs and tier bonuses will be devalued, but once in a while there might come one that's OP.
You also assume that the ilvl change will completely devalue LFR gear. I hope this will be true, but I suspect the devs - who try as hard as they can - will still occasionally throw in a very op set bonus or trinket proc. These things just happen.
Yeah, that's the big one- items that are upgrades despite being lower ilvl, usually trinkets and set bonuses. As long as these exist in LFR, heroic raiders are going to farm LFR for them.
Edited by Suzushiirou on 11/1/2012 1:50 PM PDT
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