Make LFR and Normal/Heroic Share same lockout

90 Human Monk
12600
11/01/2012 01:38 PMPosted by Buttercookie
If I went to a store that I frequented and was insulted by the equivalent of a salesman, there would be much different repercussions.


I doubt you would use that tone to talk to the store's sales staff.

11/01/2012 01:13 PMPosted by Anafielle
You assume that the ilvl change solves all problems. It helps, but it doesn't magically remove our desire to do LFR.


The desire is yours, Blizzard has no involvement with that and is not to blame.

11/01/2012 01:13 PMPosted by Anafielle
LFR represents a larger quantity of VP than even raiding. VP is important now for gear, and will be important in the future for our upgrade paths; the cap is pretty far away by design. As long as that holds true, and as long as LFR rewards so much VP, we'll all be running LFR.


VP gear is just something to fill in the blanks if you can't wait to get that upgrade from your noemal raid instance. I have no problems capping my wekkly VPs without even touching LFR.

11/01/2012 01:13 PMPosted by Anafielle
You guys are opening instances very quickly. I appreciate that we are being provided with lots of raids, but you must understand that there are tons of times when LFR - at that single moment in time - represents an upgrade path for a given raider even if they are clearing a lot of heroic mode bosses.


I'm sorry, but LFR is no avenue for a raider that wants to clear heroic raids. There is no BiS gear in LFR.

11/01/2012 01:13 PMPosted by Anafielle
You also assume that the ilvl change will completely devalue LFR gear. I hope this will be true, but I suspect the devs - who try as hard as they can - will still occasionally throw in a very op set bonus or trinket proc. These things just happen.


If so, I guess you should know that the proccs from trinkets in LFR are lower and weaker than the same trinket in normal. LFR holds no bis for you or anyone doing normal or heroic raids.

11/01/2012 01:13 PMPosted by Anafielle
You can expect raiders of all flavors, from normal mode raiders to heroic mode raiders, to be in LFR.


Anyone doing normal or heroics raids who still runs LFR is doing so for SnG, not because Blizzard is forcing them to do so.

LFR is like any Wrath 10 man instance, except that in Wrath there were some BiS pieces that only dropped in 10 man raids. Those in 25 man guilds would do 10 man raids to get some very specific items, but there is nothing in LFR that you can't get in the normal version of the instance with better stats.

back in Wrath people wer actuallty forced to run 10 and 25 man raids each week for gear. Nowadays you run LFR out of your own volition.
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52 Night Elf Rogue
610
I would say the majority of people want LOCKOUTS separated out again.

Stop using BS arguments like cultrual differences.... raiders want to raid.

You arent FORCED to run both if you dont want to.

But by being LOCKED together people who WANT to run both 10 and 25 each week ARE being FORCED not to be able to do so.

People get their facts mixxed up conveniently.....

LOCKED = cant run it game stops you.

NOT LOCKED = you have a choice....

Separate the lockouts please for people who ENJOY raiding/playing wow and getting rewarded for it.
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MVP - Technical Support
100 Human Warrior
18840
Zarhym. I just want to see LFR stop insulting raiders who are doing heroic content with more valor than we get in our version of raid. The problem is really quite simple. The fastest reward for time spent is to earn valor this way
LFR > actual raiding > challenge modes > random heroics > scenarios > dailies

that nets the most valor per hour. you can even put challenge modes and heroics and scenarios in front of actual raiding too when you factor in time spent on progression instead of farm, although for the sake of comparing efficiency when ALL modes are farm, that is the order. LFR > actual raid > everything else

To say it's not required is true. You aren't REQUIRED to cap your valor every week. But any raider not doing so in a progression oriented guild is just plain wrong. Also, like any situation, we are going to choose the path of most efficiency for our time and that means being forced to run LFR whether you admit so or not. I think one fix that will go a long way is to raise the valor of normal raids to at least match or exceed LFR a little, and heroic should definitely award bonus valor. MSV should not be worth 180 VP to clear in LFR which is utterly face-roll. and then get slapped in face with only 150VP for clearing normal or even heroic MSV which takes considerably more effort.

I'm not asking to cap valor points just for doing MSV or heart of fear or whatever. But it shouldn't be literally the smallest fraction of our VP income either. I get more VP per week doing dailies and LFR than i do full clearing our actual raid content. That's just unacceptable.

Obviously making a shared lockout isn't solution i am looking for as that'd just replace running LFR with more scenarios challenge modes and heroics. Just some insentive shifting to fix the issue balance issues i describe in reward of normal and heroic mode raiding.
Edited by Omegal on 11/1/2012 1:58 PM PDT
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90 Undead Priest
13775
i want i want all i heard.

NO 1 force you to do lfr normal ect....if your in a guild that MAKES you do it and YOUr NOT HAPPY LEAVE!!!!!!!

Hell i want the 10-25man to HAVE a Separated ID lock LIKE KR and China!!!!!! (rumors has it UE is next on the list). im tired of seeing 10 man guild...(what so epic about 10 ppl?? for mmo i would never understand)time like these i wish i had free transfer to all my toon for a high/locked realm.
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100 Worgen Hunter
10470
11/01/2012 01:17 PMPosted by Hlidskjalf
LFR shouldn't drop loot, LFR should be about seeing the content like it was said to be about.


Heroics shouldn't drop lot, heroics should be about challenging yourself as a gamer with more difficult content like it was said to be about.

Oops.
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92 Blood Elf Warlock
14820
11/01/2012 11:43 AMPosted by Zarhym
OP is right, and doesn't take things far enough. If I don't do dailies for elder charms, get rep and valor points, finish all the questlines, or run random scenarios until I get the best iLevel 463 pieces, I'm gimping my raid. They need to stop making all this content so mandatory by attaching gear to it all. Really, it also sucks that if I don't raid every week, I end up falling behind and gimping my raid. They should just remove all this gear as drops and purchases and just give everyone a flat overall iLevel that increases each week all by itself. That way I can just do the stuff I like and not worry about doing anything else that I perceive as being beneficial to my gearset, just because I happen to want the best gear I can get.

A modest proposal. :)


oh god...you gave Blizzard an idea.

WHAT HAVE YOU DONE!
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Zarhym. I just want to see LFR stop insulting raiders who are doing heroic content with more valor than we get in our version of raid. The problem is really quite simple. The fastest reward for time spent is to earn valor this way
LFR > actual raiding > challenge modes > random heroics > scenarios > dailies

that nets the most valor per hour. you can even put challenge modes and heroics and scenarios in front of actual raiding too when you factor in time spent on progression instead of farm, although for the sake of comparing efficiency when ALL modes are farm, that is the order. LFR > actual raid > everything else

To say it's not required is true. You aren't REQUIRED to cap your valor every week. But any raider not doing so in a progression oriented guild is just plain wrong. Also, like any situation, we are going to choose the path of most efficiency for our time and that means being forced to run LFR whether you admit so or not. I think one fix that will go a long way is to raise the valor of normal raids to at least match or exceed LFR a little, and heroic should definitely award bonus valor. MSV should not be worth 180 VP to clear in LFR which is utterly face-roll. and then get slapped in face with only 150VP for clearing normal or even heroic MSV which takes considerably more effort.

I'm not asking to cap valor points just for doing MSV or heart of fear or whatever. But it shouldn't be literally the smallest fraction of our VP income either. I get more VP per week doing dailies and LFR than i do full clearing our actual raid content. That's just unacceptable.

Obviously making a shared lockout isn't solution i am looking for as that'd just replace running LFR with more scenarios challenge modes and heroics. Just some insentive shifting to fix the issue balance issues i describe in reward of normal and heroic mode raiding.


Sure, LFR is fast. But there are many ways to cap your Valor in a week than there were in Cataclysm. You'll do it before you even know it.

I don't see the arguement you're trying to make here. Would sharing the lockout make it even worse? I think what you're saying belong in a different thread, then. I don't think there is a solution. If you want to min/max, and cap your valor as fast as possible, go right ahead.

It's optional. You're just complaining because you feel that you have to do it, because everyone else is doing it. Stop feeling that, and congratulations, you've been released from the carrot on a stick reward system that World of Warcraft has, and you'll feel better for it.
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90 Human Paladin
11880
Zarhym: That is a playstyle choice.

Other people: You don't have to play that way.


I know. I certainly don't have to play WOW either. :P

Sure, it's a playstyle choice. I choose to be a hardcore raider because it's what I love (and WOW is excellent for that, particularily now, these raids are fantastic). My whole raid team loves it with me and that's how we love to play.

I'm sure the developers really do care about controlling this "required" mindset. Why else would Zarhym make a long post trying to explain why hardcore raiders shouldn't be in LFR using examples from heroic and normal MSV?

If the developers didn't care about what hardcore raiders felt "required" to do, then they would not have gone through all the trouble of altering the ilvl in LFR to ease how required the gear felt to us, they would not have gated two reps behind GL, they would not have made the recent VP retuning change ... they absolutely 100% care. They want us to have fun optimizing our gear and our progression. They want us to want to grind, but they don't want to drive us totally insane. I appreciate that, and that's what has made this game so much fun that I feel the need to QQ in long passionate forum posts.

And that is why I care about dispelling this myth that "Raiders don't need to run LFR." Because, you know, we still do, and it is not fun to hear blues tell everyone that raiders like me are not interested in LFR. We are.

The day I stop caring about optimizing my gear is the day I stop playing wow.

You know what? I don't tell anyone how to play this game. I am aware that millions of people don't play like me! I support the existence of easy heroics, and LFR, and scenarios in this game for all kinds of people who are not Anafielle and Something Wicked and other guilds like me and mine. I want all levels of raiders and players of World of Warcraft to have fun with what they enjoy most. I think LFR has a place in this game that is positive and good. I support it!

I just don't want to run it on my main (and I don't appreciate being told, by blues, that I as a hardcore raider shouldn't be running it).

I hope that people have respect for what is fun for me (and for thousands of other people who raid) in this game. But you know.......

i want i want all i heard.

NO 1 force you to do lfr normal ect....if your in a guild that MAKES you do it and YOUr NOT HAPPY LEAVE!!!!!!!


.... Of course, respect is just too much to ask for in the official forums.
Edited by Anafielle on 11/1/2012 2:06 PM PDT
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75 Draenei Shaman
9975
Zarhym,

I don't agree with the shared lockout but I do believe LFR should not be new content. What was it like looking in the mirror after you guys decided that at the start of Dragon Soul you would make 3 new heroics that were easier than the ones at launch and have it drop ilvl equivilent to the previous raid? Along with raid finder that destroyed one of the biggest perks about being a part of a raiding guild; seeing new content. Let me remind you that raid finder DS was also easier than any normal mode fight from first released raids of that expansion. Deathwing was supposed to be Azeroth's biggest threat yet he was turned into Azeroth's biggest punching bag with a never ending kill cycle.

I think you guys will work on making better methods of handling content but it probably would have been better had you released MSV LFR after maybe once you opened up Heart of Fear. The problem you have created is once you give these guys something... You can never take it away.
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90 Goblin Rogue
14675


    B) Organized raiders who regularly tackle Heroic difficulty will have virtually no need to run Raid Finder much at all this expansion (since a new tier's LFR ilvl won't outdo the previous tier's Heroic ilvl)
    C) Organized raiders who make progress each week on normal difficulty shouldn't hit any pass/fail gear checks and lose because they're not running LFR every week.
    D) You're not forced by the game (AT ALL) to keep running LFR each week for gear if you want to be successful in the higher difficulties.

I asked a lot of questions because you're demanding a very dramatic change to the game, but you've shared almost no details regarding why this change is completely necessary for everyone, and you're posting on an account that gives me absolutely no insight into your level-90 progression.


B) Tier sets can skew this, depends how well they're designed if the LFRTier is better than the Last-Tier Heroic bonuses.
C) If people can get an upgrade that will help their raid team, they will run it, regardless of what you will consider "Not required", because even most guilds who aren't even super serious about progression will frown on "that one guy" who didn't feel like running lfr when everyone did throughout the week because a new tier came out and the tier set bonuses were lolinsanelikedragonsoul.
D) Will agree partly on the "every week part", the lfr issue is a few weeks after a new tier comes out, and is usually really depended on how well itemized gear is, how good trinkets are, how good tier sets are, how good weapon procs are(if any).
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Please LFR is the worst thing ever and I'm sick of feeling that I have to run it to get a gear edge for normal raiding.

Please make it share a lockout so raiders are not forced into the monstrosity that you have created.

You aren't forced. Now that that's taken care of...
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100 Orc Warlock
14405
Since people still apparently have a hard time understanding why raiders feel forced to run LFR, let me state my personal reasoning here.

Currently, my guild is stuck on Elegon due to lack of DPS, as well as healing output. The latter I can't do anything abou, but the former I can. Even though I'm the top DPS in our raid on that fight by quite a bit, I can still help us reach the DPS requirement by getting more gear and increasing my DPS.

So look at it from my perspective. I can choose to do LFR, which, if I get gear, will help my DPS and by extension help my guild, or I can choose to be lazy and not do it, which could hamper my guild's progression in a small way. Obviously, I'm going to choose the option that helps my guild more, especially since I am an officer and want to set a good example.
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90 Pandaren Monk
2375
Blizz, I have a different request.

Please create a new faction and make LFR be required daily to gain faction with them.
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100 Human Warlock
13675
While I agree with Zarhym, at the same time I do not.

It is unfortunately the mindset of the player base is to min/max whether they are hardcore or casual. It is the same reason some specs are deemed "not viable" even though they may only do 2% less damage overall than "viable" spec. I think it is the side effect of prolonged exposure to the old talent tree system as well as the wealth of knowledge that is provided to us through theorycrafters and tools such as askmrrobot.com

While in a perfect world Zarhym would be 100% right, the fact of the matter is the WoW culture has been permeated by a hardcore mentality over the course of the last 8 years. We all feel the pressure to be doing everything possible to get even +1 to a particular stat from our peers. We are treated by the community as we are not doing our part to be successful if we do not participate in LFR, even in the most casual of raiding guilds. Let me reiterate I agree with Zarhym that the reality is mechanics and knowledge are far more important than gear, however the only tangible means to measure that is through gear.

So here is the important question...

How do we change the majority culture in WoW to reflect the realities of raiding of the many instead of mirroring the culture of the hardcore minority?


I think we do that by leaving the game as it is right now. People will try and push themselves to "do everything that is doable" and find that that's not practical. The thing is, any attempt to corral people into doing what's right "for them" invariably ends up with people saying the game is locking them out from doing things and putting caps on what they believe they're capable of. So the only fair method is to leave it all open and let the players decide for themselves when they've done "enough work on progressing my raiding character(s) this week".

For some people, they're happy spending the entire week on that. For others, they're not, and they just need to learn that min/maxing their way to a clear can't be done any more and they just have to learn to start playing in what their character currently has equipped plus whatever happens to drop in the raid this week.
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90 Pandaren Hunter
5405
You don't have to do it!
I haven't won gear from it and I manage to raid just fine.


11/01/2012 10:04 AMPosted by Chí
dont ruin lfr for all of us lol



Sorry, sharing lockouts would be dumb.
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85 Blood Elf Priest
10755
11/01/2012 10:08 AMPosted by Kewngpow
See how that stupid argument of yours floats when it can barely hold any watter.


mixed metaphor or tautology?
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89 Blood Elf Paladin
6630
11/01/2012 02:19 PMPosted by Vasparian
So you don't do it for better gear and progression? Good to know you think LFR is insulting raiders. Talk about asinine.


Did you even read what he said? His point is pretty valid seeing that LFR rewards more valor points than normal or even heroic mode raids. I would think the harder difficulties would award more valor.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
8265
No thanks OP, its not a good idea at all. Heck LFR DS was harder than 10 man DS.
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100 Human Warlock
13675

To say it's not required is true. You aren't REQUIRED to cap your valor every week. But any raider not doing so in a progression oriented guild is just plain wrong.


"Progression-orientated guilds" are going to have to accept that they need to move with the changes in the game if they want to enjoy it. They're a relative minority so quite frankly, I see no need for game design to revolve around their own way of wanting to play.

And by this I don't mean "guilds that want to progress in raids". I mean, as I assume you do, the ones that require their members to "do everything that is doable on your raiding character between this and the next raid in order to progress, no matter how much effort and how little an increase you actually get". Learning to "Progress at a reasonable rate" rather than "progress as fast as we possibly can" is something the majority of raiders are going to have to do, or they're simply going to burn out. Changing the game so that half the remainder of the population can't enjoy doing extra optional content if they so choose isn't going to happen, just so progression raiders don't feel "forced" into doing it. The game is going to keep throwing extra ways to earn gear at us, and anyone that feels they have to do it just because it's there and happens to have an upgrade for them is probably going to find themselves very, very unhappy. To argue that nobody should have access to something in game because "If it's there I feel forced into doing it" is incredibly self-centered and selfish, and it's something that makes me sick with this community when I've seen it used in other threads.

I see no issue with LFR being the fastest optimal way to get VPs. The fastest way should be a way that is accessible to as many players as possible, then diminishing returns cutting in for the methods a smaller number of people do. It reduces the difference in progression between the two extremes, which - and I'm really sorry for those who can't see that - is necessary if we're all going to play in the same game together.

Capping VPs isn't that difficult nowadays - you can still choose how you do it, and ignore LFR if you wish.

I know the real hardcore raiders out there don't give a damn about these things - they'll get the content down whatever. I know the majority of casuals I know like it. I know the majority of people I know that don't raid at all either doesn't really give a damn or likes that they can now get decent gear without feeling forced into raids. The only ones I know that don't like this are those who are min/maxing and calling themselves "hardcore" and "progression-orientated" without any real idea what they're talking about, and enjoy putting themselves on some kind of pedestal as if they're a class of player all of their own (something I'd totally agree with, but the class I'd call them probably can't be spoken aloud on the forums). If the game has to lose those people because they don't like the direction it's headed in, so be it, but right now this game gives the majority of us more options of things to do than ever before, is more enjoyable than ever before (even with buggy CRZs doing their best to screw that up), and I've seen more people on my friends list than ever before.
Edited by Alelsa on 11/1/2012 2:25 PM PDT
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