Make LFR and Normal/Heroic Share same lockout

90 Gnome Priest
6015
Buttercookie got owned /end thread
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90 Human Paladin
11880
11/01/2012 12:07 PMPosted by Zarhym
Right. So it's a choice you're making for every advantage in the game. Do you want every advantage possible in the game? 'Cause you have to put in extra effort for that.


Zarhym, you have to make up your mind about whether the intention is for raiders to run LFR or not. You can't make comments like you did earlier about how HM raiders "won't be running LFR and then make a quote like this.

So which is it? I'm looking at all your comments in this thread now, not just the one you posted to twitter, and I think you are saying here that you all HAVE designed LFR to be compelling for raiders.

Uhhhh. Now I'm confused. Is the design intention for raiders to run LFR or not?!
Edited by Anafielle on 11/1/2012 2:31 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Warrior
0
11/01/2012 02:21 PMPosted by Buttercookie
So you don't do it for better gear and progression? Good to know you think LFR is insulting raiders. Talk about asinine.


Did you even read what he said? His point is pretty valid seeing that LFR rewards more valor points than normal or even heroic mode raids. I would think the harder difficulties would award more valor.


Normal raids and Heroic raids should reward more VP.

But that's not the conversation were having in this thread.

HOWEVER, it is part of the on going problem with sections of the raider community as a whole, and it's a problem that's gotten really bad with WoW... Raid logging, there is a sub set of the more hard core groups that literally want raiding. Nothing else, any time spent on other content outside of raiding is wasted development to these folks. Likewise any content they are "forced" to do outside of raiding is unacceptable to them.

They log in, they raid, they log out. As was said, should you cap from doing heroic or normal? No. Should they reward more than LFR does, yes.
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90 Human Monk
12725
11/01/2012 02:29 PMPosted by Anafielle
Uhhhh. Now I'm confused. Is the design intention for raiders to run LFR or not?!


The intention is for everyone to be able to run LFR. The intention is NOT for anyone to be forced to run LFR.

It is perfectly possible to do normal raids with whatever peices you can get from heroics.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
10205
I agree with this.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
14660
11/01/2012 02:33 PMPosted by Kewngpow
Uhhhh. Now I'm confused. Is the design intention for raiders to run LFR or not?!


The intention is for everyone to be able to run LFR. The intention is NOT for anyone to be forced to run LFR.

It is perfectly possible to do normal raids with whatever peices you can get from heroics.


This is completely non-responsive. Blizzard stated that there intention was for HM raiders to not have an incentive to do LFR, that has proven false. Now they are changing their tune. What is possible is completely out of the discussion, it is about incentive.
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90 Human Paladin
11880
Uhhhh. Now I'm confused. Is the design intention for raiders to run LFR or not?!


The intention is for everyone to be able to run LFR. The intention is NOT for anyone to be forced to run LFR.

It is perfectly possible to do normal raids with whatever peices you can get from heroics.


Right. I don't disagree with you. Normal modes were quite doable in 463, we did them week one. However, I am not referencing normal raids. I am still replying to THIS comment of Zarhym's on heroic raiders having "no need" to run LFR--

B) Organized raiders who regularly tackle Heroic difficulty will have virtually no need to run Raid Finder much at all this expansion (since a new tier's LFR ilvl won't outdo the previous tier's Heroic ilvl)


His other comments in the thread have not been consistent with this.
Edited by Anafielle on 11/1/2012 2:36 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Shaman
14660
We don't want to push raiders to LFR. That was a consequence of old loot model plus DW weapons and trinkets. Hopefully fixed. - Ghostcrawler


It isn't just his comments, this is the company line. The existing reality does not square with it.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
0
Zarhym. I just want to see LFR stop insulting raiders who are doing heroic content with more valor than we get in our version of raid. The problem is really quite simple. The fastest reward for time spent is to earn valor this way
LFR > actual raiding > challenge modes > random heroics > scenarios > dailies

that nets the most valor per hour. you can even put challenge modes and heroics and scenarios in front of actual raiding too when you factor in time spent on progression instead of farm, although for the sake of comparing efficiency when ALL modes are farm, that is the order. LFR > actual raid > everything else

This is no different from how points/badges have been in the past. Heck, anyone who raided in TBC knew that there would likely be a weekly guild run of Kara, the starter raid, for badges because you could get 19 or so badges in about an hour or two (depending on your raid makeup), as opposed to running heroics over and over. But fastest method does not equal only method, and if you don’t like running LFR because it bores you, you can get them through other methods. That’s why they have a weekly cap, so you have a full week to get them.

11/01/2012 01:08 PMPosted by Act
1) Would you care to comment on the numerous posts of people who actually raid, who point out LFR reinforces bad habits? People that point out LFR has simply taken place of the split ilvl system that existed in Wrath and forced raiding guilds to run the same content multiple times a week.

The difference in wrath was that 10 man and 25 man were part of the same progression path. Your gear went 5 man -> 5 man heroic -> 10 man -> 25 man / 10 man heroic -> 25 man heroic. The other difference was the requirement to split raid groups. If you were in a 10 man raiding guild (like min), if you wanted to progress, you would have to either pug 15 people, or make a bigger raiding group. If you were in a 25 man raiding guild, then to do the 10 mans you would have to split your group up into 2 groups, and have 5 extra people (normally alts, but sometimes pugs) to fill those last 5 slots. That’s what they didn’t like. With the current setup, not only is the 10 man and 25 man content tuned to not require LFR gear to complete (as shown by the world leader guilds), but if your GUILD requires you run LFR, you can do it on your own and don’t have to split the guild up to do so.
11/01/2012 01:08 PMPosted by Act
3) Would you care to comment on the time commitment for those "casuals" who don't have the time to put together a normal raid, yet don't see the irony of spending upwards of an hour and a half to down a single boss? (I am in hardcore raid content, and I don't have that kind of time commitment LFR takes)

There’s a huge difference between organizing a 10 man pug for a raid and then doing it versus spending the time in LFR. I know for myself, I hate organizing the raid, being blamed when something doesn’t go right (“OMG THIS TANK YOU GOT IS AWFUL, RL KICK HIM NOW!”), and if I want to leave LFR because it’s taking too long, I can. If I put the raid together, I have some sort of obligation to stay until the end, or until everyone leaves.
11/01/2012 01:08 PMPosted by Act
4) Would you care to comment on the lack of non-LFR alternatives for casuals -- especially in light of having a tool like Scenarios at your disposal which seems to be a much better fit for people who don't have a lot of time and don't want to raid or organize a group? (Itemize these things and give a decent reward. They're only getting panned right now because they are by and large a waste of time).

I agree here. Outside of LFR, you have the laughable drop rate of gear from scenarios, or VP rewards, which require rep to unlock. There are a few crafted pieces, but not enough for a full set, as far as I know.
11/01/2012 01:13 PMPosted by Anafielle
I agree with the OP in some ways. I have been very irritated that my 3 night a week raid schedule has been effectively upped to 4, so that I can make my guild's LFR run on tuesdays. I raid in my guild specifically to enjoy a light raiding schedule and I really dislike feeling as though I'm raiding on 4 nights a week, even if the 4th is a casual LFR run.

That’s a guild issue, not a game issue. My guild would love it if everyone ran LFR every week, but we’ve remained casual and only have 2 nights of raiding per week… and even those have been delayed twice now to just run heroic 5 mans to help gear up the less geared people in the groups.
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90 Pandaren Warrior
0
11/01/2012 02:37 PMPosted by Moshne
We don't want to push raiders to LFR. That was a consequence of old loot model plus DW weapons and trinkets. Hopefully fixed. - Ghostcrawler


It isn't just his comments, this is the company line. The existing reality does not square with it.


What is in the current LFR incarnation that is game breaking from a raiding standpoint?

What did the world's first kill for Vault's have to have that dropped from LFR?

Answer: Nada.

/thread
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90 Blood Elf Monk
12425
11/01/2012 02:29 PMPosted by Anafielle
Right. So it's a choice you're making for every advantage in the game. Do you want every advantage possible in the game? 'Cause you have to put in extra effort for that.


Zarhym, you have to make up your mind about whether the intention is for raiders to run LFR or not. You can't make comments like you did earlier about how HM raiders "won't be running LFR and then make a quote like this.

So which is it? I'm looking at all your comments in this thread now, not just the one you posted to twitter, and I think you are saying here that you all HAVE designed LFR to be compelling for raiders.

Uhhhh. Now I'm confused. Is the design intention for raiders to run LFR or not?!
That's because by "heroic raiders" he meant any raider who progresses to the heroic level, not bleeding-edge guilds who are going for region/world rankings, who are a subset of the former group.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
14660
11/01/2012 02:41 PMPosted by Dorrell


It isn't just his comments, this is the company line. The existing reality does not square with it.


What is in the current LFR incarnation that is game breaking from a raiding standpoint?

What did the world's first kill for Vault's have to have that dropped from LFR?

Answer: Nada.

/thread


You are missing the point completely. Nothing is "breaking the game" for those that want to run LFR, have a good time. We just take issue with incentive to run the same instance multiple times per week. There is an awful lot about the guilds that push world firsts that we don't want to incentive everyone raiding to do, so whether a small handful managed to kill it without LFR loot is pretty much irrelevant. (As an aside, the same guilds that did manage to do it, they are still running LFR for the upgrades that are provided. Raiding doesn't end when one guild kills a boss.)
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90 Undead Mage
16325
11/01/2012 12:07 PMPosted by Zarhym
talking to you logically about it


Zarhym, this is the interwebs, you should know by now there is no place for logic here! :)
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90 Pandaren Warrior
0
You are missing the point completely. Nothing is "breaking the game" for those that want to run LFR, have a good time. We just take issue with incentive to run the same instance multiple times per week. There is an awful lot about the guilds that push world firsts that we don't want to incentive everyone raiding to do, so whether a small handful managed to kill it without LFR loot is pretty much irrelevant. (As an aside, the same guilds that did manage to do it, they are still running LFR for the upgrades that are provided. Raiding doesn't end when one guild kills a boss.)


No I totally get it, you want to raid log and be done for the week.

I ran every 5 man in BC in one day once. Why? Because I was that many badges short of that last piece of new fancy badge gear from the Sunwell Isle and I didn't want my tanking spot to be lost.

I've been there, I've done that. It's not worth it, find another guild that suits you better. LFR is not affecting your game play at all unless YOU let it, that's what Z was trying to get across. YOU think that LFR is required, it's not.

I've put out several posts in this thread trying to show those on the other side of this argument what ya'll are being pressured into thinking and that there might be consequences in your guild if you don't. So I know what you're going through. Let me tell you from experience, what you're doing isn't worth it, you'll burn yourself out and start to hate logging on. Slowly the game isn't a game, it's work. I realized that a long time ago.
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90 Human Paladin
11880

That’s a guild issue, not a game issue. My guild would love it if everyone ran LFR every week, but we’ve remained casual and only have 2 nights of raiding per week… and even those have been delayed twice now to just run heroic 5 mans to help gear up the less geared people in the groups.


No. Where did you get that idea? Way There is no dictator telling me all hardcore raiders, "YOU MUST RUN LFR!!!!!!!" Agh.

I am not sure how else to put this but: I run LFR because the game isn't fun for me unless I do. I play in a guild with 30 raiders who feel the same way and we all raid happily together that way.

I don't insult your guild. I respect your playstyle. How about respecting mine?

If there are upgrades in LFR-- If I raided in ANY GUILD, if I played wow AT ALL, I would run LFR for those upgrades because they are there. That is how I enjoy playing, and that is consistent with raiders who raid like me.

There's no mysterious "guild problem" about it unless you consider the top 500 or so world guilds to be just playing the game wrong. That's what we enjoy and that is how we play. I don't think we're better than anyone else, but I will defend my playstyle and what I enjoy.

Fact: If LFR is here in its current incarnation, we will run it. Or we won't be hardcore raiders.

If that's the design intent, for us to run LFR, then OK, we will do that. My argument here with Zarhym is that he seems to try and argue that this isn't true. Um. It is.
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90 Human Priest
18200
Unfortunately, Zarhym, you have a few facts in error.

11/01/2012 11:06 AMPosted by Zarhym
- Are you in a guild that has success with Heroic raid progression? This one's pretty important, as any guild that's good enough to be farming, or at least killing several bosses in, Heroic Mogu'shan Vaults and Heart of Fear by the time Terrace of Endless Spring opens via LFR, will not likely need a single piece of gear from LFR. Terrace of Endless Spring LFR items won't be as good as your Heroic raid gear.


There are two huge counter-examples to this off the top of my head:

1, the trinket from Sha of Fear. As seen here

http://www.howtopriest.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=1616#iTrinket

the LFR version is apparently going to be third best in slot (behind the Darkmoon trinket and Heroic Elegon trinket). Which means if you don't have the Heroic Elegon trinket (which is quite likely) OR you don't have the Darkmoon card...you get to do Terrace LFR.

2, set bonuses. Finishing 2 and 4 piece set bonuses will make it worth it for many people to do Terrace LFR.

11/01/2012 12:00 PMPosted by Zarhym
You first said we're literally forcing you to do LFR to progress. I pointed out that you're not actually forced to do it, in that you shouldn't hit a brick wall in progression because you didn't collect enough LFR gear. Now you're saying you want us to force everyone to choose between LFR and normal difficulty each week, just because it's not mandatory to run both.


Over the course of three weeks of normal and LFR clears, my raid got 2 weapons. They were both fist weapons (one normal and one LFR) and thus essentially useless. We were wiping on Heroic Gara'jal at <5% week three of raiding. If we had gotten a few LFR weapons we would have killed him that week.

Instead, we came back the next week and killed him in a situation where literally NONE of the people in the raid had a weapon above 463 ilvl. Right at the 6:00 berserk. If we hadn't done LFR and gotten those minor upgrades, we might still be wiping.

So no, if we had gotten a few normal mode weapons we wouldn't have needed the LFR gear. But in the situation we were in, we did. If by "brick wall" you mean "wiping for months" then no, we didn't hit a brick wall. But if by "brick wall" you mean "wiping on a boss because you're a few percent short of the DPS you need" then yes. And even a few LFR weapons would have made the difference, but we weren't even lucky enough to get those.
Edited by Balkoth on 11/1/2012 2:59 PM PDT
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Please LFR is the worst thing ever and I'm sick of feeling that I have to run it to get a gear edge for normal raiding.

Please make it share a lockout so raiders are not forced into the monstrosity that you have created.


This is the dumbest thing I have ever heard...
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90 Human Monk
12725
B) Organized raiders who regularly tackle Heroic difficulty will have virtually no need to run Raid Finder much at all this expansion (since a new tier's LFR ilvl won't outdo the previous tier's Heroic ilvl)

His other comments in the thread have not been consistent with this.


If you're gonna quote Z, do a full contextual quote. He also said the following in the exact same post:

11/01/2012 11:06 AMPosted by Zarhym
- Are you in a guild that has success with Heroic raid progression? This one's pretty important, as any guild that's good enough to be farming, or at least killing several bosses in, Heroic Mogu'shan Vaults and Heart of Fear by the time Terrace of Endless Spring opens via LFR, will not likely need a single piece of gear from LFR. Terrace of Endless Spring LFR items won't be as good as your Heroic raid gear.


11/01/2012 02:36 PMPosted by Anafielle
Right. I don't disagree with you. Normal modes were quite doable in 463, we did them week one. However, I am not referencing normal raids. I am still replying to THIS comment of Zarhym's on heroic raiders having "no need" to run LFR--


If you can tackle normal Mogushan vaults with heroic gear, you can certainly do HoF with whatever peices you have from Mogushan and heroics, as long as you meet the iLevel requirement. There is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON for anyone to run LFR as well as normal and heroic raids other than a personal desire to have the best gear possible. The current content is perfectly doable without the need of a single piece from LFR.
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