Windwalker - bugs and design flaws

1 Blood Elf Rogue
0
(and the L30 talents don't heal enough and cost too much to be effective).


And they're getting nerfed next patch.
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100 Draenei Shaman
5135
Yes. Not sure why. I assume because Chi Burst is quite nice for AE healing the melee for mistweavers. Unfortunately this makes them even worse for WW and BrM.
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22 Worgen Priest
50
11/01/2012 10:53 AMPosted by Pandoya
Being a former Retribution Paladin myself, I'm used to having a lot of utility to offer to my raid, off-healing, etc. Druids also have a lot of raid utility to offer,


That's because Blizzard is, supposedly, trying to make it so that hybrid dps specs offer less healing / raid cooldowns in order to put them on par with pures.. Entire -classes- which bring only dps with no off-healing and only warriors have raid cooldowns.

I hate to say this, but windwalkers are actually the best designed hybrid dps exactly for this reason. They have to earn their raid spot almost entirely with dps, which given how hybrid tax is an ideaology the devs are no longer following, is exactly how it should be.
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100 Draenei Shaman
5135
If other DPS specs had the same constraints, that would be a valid stance to take. But they don't.
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90 Pandaren Monk
11415
11/03/2012 02:28 PMPosted by Howlyberry
Being a former Retribution Paladin myself, I'm used to having a lot of utility to offer to my raid, off-healing, etc. Druids also have a lot of raid utility to offer,


That's because Blizzard is, supposedly, trying to make it so that hybrid dps specs offer less healing / raid cooldowns in order to put them on par with pures.. Entire -classes- which bring only dps with no off-healing and only warriors have raid cooldowns.

I hate to say this, but windwalkers are actually the best designed hybrid dps exactly for this reason. They have to earn their raid spot almost entirely with dps, which given how hybrid tax is an ideaology the devs are no longer following, is exactly how it should be.

Only Warriors?

DKs have so much utility I'm not even bothering listing here, I'll just mention one: AMZ.
Ferals have Heart of the Wild, which is the coolest talent in the game, and completely overpowered for PvE, PvP, Challenge Modes, you name it.
Shamans have lvl 75 talents, which can be Healing Tide or Ancestral Guidance, and Stormslash.
Retribution have tons of utiluty, plus Devotion Aura.
Warriors have Banners, plus Rallying Cry.
Rogues do not have a raiding cooldown, but they bring Blade Flurry, which is pretty unique and the only thing like it is Sweeping Strikes. Also, they have 3 DPS specs to choose from, so it's very likely that one of the 3 specs have something to offer to each encounter.

About damage: Windwalkers are not in a bad spot, but we are going to hit a haste softcap very soon, while other classes are scaling much better and have no such problem with resource capping.

Gear-wise, you are also dealing with sharing gear with Rogues, Ferals, Bears and Brewmaster with leahter, and also Shamans + Hunters with necks/rings/trinkets. It's much better to bring another STR user and have better gear distribution.

Windwalkers needs a lot of changes.
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22 Worgen Priest
50
11/03/2012 03:04 PMPosted by Pandoya
DKs have so much utility I'm not even bothering listing here, I'll just mention one: AMZ.


I'm going to go ahead and only quote this.

Again, look at my post - actually wait, I did my post really poorly.

For some reason I mentioned warriors, and I'm not sure why.. I was thinking along the lines of pures, and due to my older vanilla mindset I just threw them into the mix. That's my bad.

Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that pures currently offer no raid utility outside of their damage and passive buffs; and this is the model Blizzard should trying to be work towards for hybrid dps. If they ever achieve their goals of having hybrid dps be equal (or damn near it) to pures in all situations, pures are going to drop off the map -very- quickly due to the fact that we don't have raid cooldowns and free healing to offer in addition to our actual damage.

That is why I like WW monks and believe that they're balanced and well designed whilst all other hybrids are stupidly designed. There was quite the large thread on this issue a few months before MoP actually, and the general consensus was that most of the hybrid dps speccs were retardedly designed and could never realisticly be allowed to hit or approach pure dps numbers and pures would die out in competitive raiding very quickly (hell, rogues are already struggling).

11/03/2012 02:47 PMPosted by Slant
If other DPS specs had the same constraints, that would be a valid stance to take. But they don't.


It's a perfectly valid stance to take.

As much as I hate to do what Blizz did back in BC to shaman, this is a definite case of WW monks not being underpowered in that aspect, but everyone else just being overpowered in it. I'm moderately baised in the sense that I main a pure, but come on now. Can you actually keep a straight face and tell yourself that if every hybrid dps could do pure damage, whilst still holding onto their utility and raid cooldowns, pures would be brought to progression minded raids at all?

And don't give me that "if the pures prove they can avoid standing in bad things" garbage. If you're in a good and progression oriented guild you can build any class roster you want and fill it up with people who don't stand in stuff. You'd see pures vanish from bleeding edge guild profession in a matter of days, and over the next few months they'd be phased out of the high end all together.
Edited by Howlyberry on 11/3/2012 3:45 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
11415
Honestly, you are only addressing 1 issue out of many that I have outlined here. Monks are not fine by any means, even if you consider the DPS aspect only, and there's a very detailed explanation.

I don't want to discuss pures vs hybrids in this topic, this is not the intent. There's a very clear distinction between hybrid class design and pure class design, and players take that into account when they choose a class to play, it's something players expect from a class.
Edited by Pandoya on 11/3/2012 4:44 PM PDT
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100 Draenei Shaman
5135
As much as I hate to do what Blizz did back in BC to shaman, this is a definite case of WW monks not being underpowered in that aspect, but everyone else just being overpowered in it.

That sucked and was terrible. Not just my opinion, the devs agreed it was not positive design. So no, even if you ignore the fact that they aren't going to take away every other DPS spec's tookit in the middle of an expansion, that is not a valid stance.
Edited by Slant on 11/3/2012 4:56 PM PDT
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22 Worgen Priest
50
11/03/2012 04:40 PMPosted by Pandoya
There's a very clear distinction between hybrid class design and pure class design, and players take that into account when they choose a class to play, it's something players expect from a class.


Yeah, the problem is that it changes.

I decided to play a rogue back in vanilla. I made the choice to be able to do solid damage at the expense of everything else, and that was fair to me. I elected to specialize in the only thing I could do.

The problem is that, since making that choice, Blizzard has decided that not only should those who decided not to special be just as good (if not better) than me at the only thing I can do whilst being able to do other things if desired.. But that they should be able to do those other things while being as good (or better than) me at what I specialize in at the exact same time.

That's not a choice. It's a bait-n-switch. And a poorly justified one at that.

11/03/2012 04:40 PMPosted by Pandoya
Honestly, you are only addressing 1 issue out of many that I have outlined here.


Yes, I get that. I understand that monks are lacking in cleave, have a clunky cycle, a terrible mastery, ect ect; and I'm not contesting that.

However you included what I'm mentioning in your original post, so I'm well within the context of the thread to be bringing this up. In more than just my opinion, your "utility" as it were is fine, and everyone else is broken. Primarily because you've still not addressed my statement of "what if everyone did equal damage" which is as good as acknowledge that I'm right as far as the death sentence that would be to pures.

I'm not really here to argue with you. I'm just here to point out that, in that one area, you don't really deserve a buff and are not "broken" by any means.

You're missing the point.

I'm not saying that monks, as a whole, should be in this xpac what the shaman class in TBC was. That's not my point.

My point was that in one specific area, that statement is actually true. Hybrids do not need to be able to have raid cooldowns, passive buffs, free raid healing, and then have pure level damage tapped on to boot. If I, as a rogue, cannot have free abilities which cost nothing more than a GCD but provide substantial raid / group healing, as well as abilities which take very little but offer extreme utility in addition to my high damage, then you shouldn't have my high damage in addition to those things. It's as simple as that.
Edited by Howlyberry on 11/3/2012 5:00 PM PDT
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100 Draenei Shaman
5135
Stop talking about pures vs hybrids. Nobody wants to have that conversation here. Thank you.
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22 Worgen Priest
50
11/03/2012 04:57 PMPosted by Slant
Stop talking about pures vs hybrids. Nobody wants to have that conversation here. Thank you.


11/01/2012 10:53 AMPosted by Pandoya
Being a former Retribution Paladin myself, I'm used to having a lot of utility to offer to my raid, off-healing, etc. Druids also have a lot of raid utility to offer, and that's what I would expect from a class that can fulfill 3 roles in the game. When you look at your spellbook, you feel like a Rogue.


11/01/2012 10:58 AMPosted by Pandoya
Currently Windwalker DPS is not great, but it's not bad either, but I feel that we're going to fall behind by the end of this tier. And since we do not offer great utility to the raid, it's much better to bring a Feral, DK, Warrior, Rogue or Ret.


It sort of is. It's not the -meat- of the issue, but it's still there.

The only contention I'm trying to make is that WW is not unbalanced / would not be unbalanced because they didn't bring top tier damage and utility at the same time. I agree that they're lack luster right now, and that they need multiple somethings to get onto an acceptable level. But that those somethings shouldn't be in both utility -and- straight up damage potential.
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100 Draenei Shaman
5135
Thank you for not talking about pures vs hybrids here. We're trying not to derail the thread.

As for your contention, I disagree. Other DPS specs have varied toolkits; windwalker does not. I listed quite a few examples in the previous page.
Edited by Slant on 11/3/2012 5:24 PM PDT
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80 Human Priest
3225
It would take far less time if the Devs were to flesh this class out and do some final adjustments then it would be to nerf the other classes. It's a useless argument because the Devs won't nerf the other 10 classes anyway.

WW monks feel like a pure that doesnt' have the utility of a pure. It doesn't feel like a hybrid because it has almost nothing of power from the other specs.

Like I said this spec needs..

It needs a heal from the MW spec
Dematerialize
It needs both other stances available to it
A DPS statue
Zen Meditation to be redesigned into a better raid cooldown.
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90 Pandaren Monk
11415
bump
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100 Pandaren Monk
12255
Can you actually keep a straight face and tell yourself that if every hybrid dps could do pure damage, whilst still holding onto their utility and raid cooldowns, pures would be brought to progression minded raids at all?


Yep, I sure can.

When a progression guild is recruiting, they don't ask if someone is flexible and good at being a tank, and a DPS. They ask what role they are applying for, and expect them to be good AT THAT ROLE. So, bearing that in mind, when applied to a progression guild you have to look at the following. If you are a pure that offered 100% damage and 25% utility, and a hybrid offered 100% damage, and 25% utility... you bring the same to your raid. Sooooo, it comes down to bring the player, not the class.

Which, if your progression guild is recruiting for the 3 individual roles, a Pure and a Hybrid should be able fulfill that individual role just the same.

Pures need to look at Hybrids within the role they are being applied, and not at any other specs they have. I'm very tired of the Pure vs Hybrid argument, simply because a hybrid is a pure when you look at the role they are filling. Please keep that in mind.

@ Op on topic. Design Flaws is a pretty hefty word. I would go with design oversights, as it doesn't imply as much negativity on the subject. Monks do have issues, and I agree. I think we feel more clunky than we should. I will be the first to stand up and tell everyone how much I hate my mastery, and how I feel like Touch of Death is one of the coolest spells in the game, and is entirely underused. I'll also stand right up and state how little design parity there is within the class, and how I feel like we are missing things that nearly every other DPS has.

My biggest complaints are the following.

-No DPS Cooldowns for on demand Burst
- What you have Tigerseye, Energizing, and Xuen!
- You mean we have energy regen, a 40+ second build up cooldown, and a pet that lasts for too long be considered burst.

- Ret Pally Mastery 2.0
- GCD Cap extreme

- CC Magnet
- Not fun

- No Cleave

- Aoe Boring
- Yes SCK is boring as hell to spam

- No execute phase buff/ability

- No raid utility
Edited by Drayjin on 11/5/2012 11:25 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Monk
6910
Should replace the SCK glyph with one that makes you able to move using FoF.
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90 Human Monk
11930
I do not want a dps statue , period! Lame things r lame
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90 Pandaren Monk
12125
5.1 is a release candidate with no changes to Monk Tier Bonuses or Fists of Fury. This makes me a sad Pandaren.

If one of these was changed, Blizzard could buy themselves some time for a more elegant solution for next patch.

I suggest keeping FoF how it is right now, but changing the 2pc bonus to buff FoF damage immensely rather than shortening the cooldown; this would at the very least make tier pieces desirable in the short term.
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100 Night Elf Monk
13565
You left out the part where all dps specs got a ton of nice self healing buffs except for dks which have the worst survivability(dps wise) now.

When I am on my monk, I miss my DK's utility and burst.
When I am on my DK, I really really appreciate WW survivability. Monk dps is not impressive, lacks cleaves, FoF is broke, burst does not exist.
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94 Draenei Monk
15245
11/03/2012 05:25 PMPosted by Primiez
A DPS statue


what possible use, outside of a cleave, could this statue have, while not being as bad as searing totem?
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