Windwalker - bugs and design flaws

100 Pandaren Monk
12255
A DPS statue


what possible use, outside of a cleave, could this statue have, while not being as bad as searing totem?


White Tiger Statue - Your next 5 Blackout Kicks will hit up to 3 targets in a frontal cone. Additionally the damage over time effect will be spread to all targets within 10-15 yards in a wide frontal cone of the Monk. Windwalker only

Spinning Crane Kick - Increased Energy cost from 40 energy to 65 energy. Windwalker only.

PS: Stupid Forums. Says page wasn't found. Go back to page, auto posts for me, but think I'm in wrong thread so I delete. Anyways, this is what I would do.
Edited by Drayjin on 11/14/2012 8:27 AM PST
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Shaman
5230
Really, Xuen should be given to WW baseline, because every WW has to take it anyway, and replaced with a different L90 talent.

Xuen doesn't make a bit of sense sense for BrM, even with the extra abilities tacked onto it to try to make it fit, and is pretty marginal for MW.
Reply Quote
100 Gnome Monk
17295
Windwalker as a spec needs three things in PvE to bring it up to par with other melee in terms of general value/utility aside from single target melee DPS. These are the same three things it has needed since beta, when I and other people who did extensive raid testing made posts along these lines.

1) Windwalker needs some kind of on-demand burst damage cooldown, or failing that, an execute. Presently the spec suffers from the same issue that plagued Enhancement Shaman throughout Cataclysm (since fixed for that spec, I should add), which is DPS that is too consistent from the start of the fight to the end, with no abilities that allow the player to tailor their damage to the needs of the encounter. There are numerous encounters in T14 and presumably future raid content where damage is especially valuable at a certain point in the fight, or where a particular phase has increased damage because of a buff or fight mechanic. Presently monks cannot contribute in these periods the way other classes can, though our sustained single target is fine. In addition to the balance issues that come with this, cooldown-oriented play has a higher skill cap and is generally more engaging. It's fun to feel like you have buttons you can press that significantly increase your damage output and to think about how to use them on a fight. It is not fun to know you do basically the same damage all the time regardless of what is going on in the fight or how you'd like to structure your output.

My suggestion would be to make Xuen baseline (either for WW only or for monks in general) and replace it as a level 90 talent with some sort of DPS cooldown (like the warrior level 90 talents for example). This could also make the very cool Xuen more of a signature class ability, since it would be permanantly available for the other specs. But any change which makes our damage more controllable would be great, and it could of course be accompanied with an equivalent nerf to sustained damage to stop overall WW DPS from being too high.

2) Windwalker needs to provide some sort of raid utility other than having strong personal defensive cooldowns. Other melee/tank hybrids usually have one or more defensive cooldowns they can use to help their raid (such as Devo Aura/Sac/BoP, Rallying Cry/Demo Banner, AMZ, HotW tranq etc), and some classes also provide offensive utility (Crit banner/Shattering, Stormlash etc). On top of those, you can throw in situational utility abilities like immunities, off-tanking capabilities, DBTS, Windwalk/Tremor/HTT, Death Grip/Gorefiend's Grasp etc. Of all the melee DPS specs, Windwalker provides by far the least to the raid in terms of general utility, and feels more like a rogue with only one DPS spec to choose from than a three-role hybrid that can contribute in other ways while providing solid DPS. We cannot off tank, we provide no defensive raid cooldown like other tank hybrids, we cannot off heal even in the most marginal sense, and we provide no offensive utility and have no situational utility abilities aside from our personal defensive cooldowns which are almost outrageously strong. On the right fight a Windwalker has two 90% DR cooldowns, a shield wall and a ~400k absorb/reflect, while providing no defensive or offensive utility for the raid. This balance is off.

3) Fists of Fury needs to be changed in some way. It is, quite simply, the worst rotational DPS ability in the game right now for any class or spec. It feels awful to use because it roots you in place, is high risk for low reward and makes the slightest movement of your kill target a huge frustration, it's buggy with haste scaling, the DPS increase it offers is incredibly small for the amount of attention it requires to use effectively, and it quite simply does not work on certain encounters because of the damage split mechanic. I cannot use Fists of Fury on Protectors of the Endless or Wind Lord because I can't make it hit the target I want to DPS for the normal amount since it splits damage to other targets, but I also can't use it to AoE because of the same mechanic. It is only useful if the target is completely stationary, I have several seconds in which I won't have to move and there's nothing else around to split the damage, and even then it's just not that fun to press your FoF button.

Make it single target, make it a burst damage CD, make it non-channelled, make it a utility ability for the stun or something, make it a cleave ability, or anything really. In its current form it is simply awful.

As an aside, we are also GCD capped which causes scaling issues (with both gear and things like heroism/bloodlust), and our set bonuses are probably the worst in the game. But those are cosmetic problems compared to the three issues above. Fixing those three things, without any increase in DPS, would make Windwalkers a lot more enjoyable to play and a lot more desirable in raid comps in high end raiding.
Edited by Gondlem on 11/15/2012 3:18 AM PST
Reply Quote
100 Pandaren Monk
12255
Honestly, I would like to see Xuen turned into a self buff, and not a pet. You gain a fist based lightning animation, and you gain a hood that appears over your head that looks similar to the head of Xuen. You then gain 15% increased attack damage, and a chance to place the Xuen cleave/aoe dot effect on targets you hit. This will put Xuen in a better place for WW, and give us a straight damage buff on a CD that is more under our control. I hate not having things under my control.

FoF Suggestion. If Blizzard is standing firm in their "we want you to stand still for 4 seconds and channel this crap" stance, then how about a 300% damage increase on FoF to stun immune targets? It'll keep it's utility in PvP and add control in PvE, but now it'll do some scary damage on bosses, making it a great part of the rotation that is actually worthwhile to press. It also falls in line with other talent based stun mechanics, such as Stormbolt.
Edited by Drayjin on 11/15/2012 6:28 AM PST
Reply Quote
100 Night Elf Warrior
18190
Fists of Fury isn't anything like Stormbolt because its not a talent on a throughput tier.

Even with the bonus damage on stun immune targets, its still weaker than the other talents, but the idea is to make it a competitive option to the other two in PvE (boss) situations.

Also, I believe its the only ability with that sort of functionality now, so its a bit odd to say it "falls in line with other talent based stun mechanics, such as Stormbolt" when Stormbolt is the only one (and is actually a talent unlike FoF). I guess there is Asphyxiate, but that doesn't get stronger on stun immune targets, it just turns back into Strangulate.

I doubt it'd be good to set things up so that WW dps completely crashes and burns on overly mobile fights too. You can't just quadruple Fists of Fury damage (300% increase) without some damage coming from somewhere.

One thing that could increase usability without changing the basic premise of the ability is to put it on a charge system, or even a partial one where you can't accumulate a full extra charge but at least so there is less pressure to try to squeeze it in as soon as it comes off cooldown. If they made haste give you extra attacks instead of removing them, that'd probably keep it worthwhile to use without being completely crippling to forego.
Edited by Asthas on 11/15/2012 7:30 AM PST
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Monk
8430
L60 Talents
Has anyone ever picked anything in PvE other than Leg Sweep? Leg Sweep is awesome. Deadly Reach is PvP-only (mobs aggro at 20yds, thanks) and Charging Ox Wave is an inferior version of Leg Sweep.


Yeah. I take Deadly Reach. It is useful in 5-mans for CC'ing certain mobs without me having to run ALL the way over to them. And the range is not within aggro range. It lies 1-2 yards outside aggro range; that or there is some delay before stuff aggros. I can use it all the time to CC a mob at range and not enter combat. I use it a lot to get at skins under daily quest mobs without aggroing the mob. That way other people can kill it. Or to CC a mob standing next to a quest clickable, get at the clickable, then leave before paralyze wears off. Should probably be 30 yards instead of 20 yards, but has its uses.
Reply Quote
100 Gnome Monk
17295
Deadly Reach is alright on Lei Shi.
Reply Quote
70 Draenei Priest
9545
Thoughts on implementation of an FoF glyph that reduces primary target damage by 25%, but cleaves the resulting damage to up to 3 additional mobs also caught in FoF? For example, in case my wording was poor, your FoF normally hits a mob for 100k. Using the glyph would instead cause it to hit that mob for 75k and up to 3 additional nearby mobs for 75k. As I see it, this would reduce the conic burst it could offer if the primary and secondary attacks hit for full (for pvp), and would also give a more interesting niche for FoF in pve on fights that involve cleave damage. While it wouldn't be a steady form of cleave damage, it would still fulfill the cleave role in some form.

FoF would also benefit from removal of the stationary positioning requirement while channeling, as has been mentioned multiple times across the forums. Currently it is far too limited in its use and, due to the haste bug involved, worth minimal gain to use in raid.

I'm also in agreement of Xuen being a base cooldown for all 3 specs of Windwalker. Currently, the level 90 talents give you a more frequent conic/aoe attack (Rushing Jade Wind), a utility healing talent to replace roll, and Xuen's burst. Xuen's current location could instead be replaced by an ability (Shake it Off) which would allow for the the entire raid to take 20% "stagger" damage for the next 8 seconds, unable to clear it but sunsequently reducing the burst damage offered by some bosses. The stagger damage could not amount to more than the monk's current hps.

For example, a boss performs a raidwide ability that does 250k damage. Shake it Off would reduce that damage by 50k per person, with the additional damage ticking each second for the next 8 seconds (ie 6250 dmg per second for the remaining 8 seconds). This wouldn't negate the total damage, simply reduce the burst and provide monks with an optional raid cooldown to mitigate burst damage. Give it a 3-5 minute cooldown to avoid overuse of class stacking, etc. for current and future encounters.

Thoughts and ideas, or general discourse as to the merits of these abilities would be welcome.
Reply Quote
100 Night Elf Warrior
18190
A glyph that weakens FoF to turn it into a cleave/AoE would be pretty annoying, since it wouldn't work well for temporary cleave/AoE situations, just fights like Stoneguard and Garalon.

FoF probably hits too hard to AoE or full damage cleave, but they could probably work it so the total damage goes up on more targets, but the damage per target still goes down. For example, for every extra target hit, it does 50% more total damage, but that total damage is divided among all the targets still.
Edited by Asthas on 11/15/2012 10:59 AM PST
Reply Quote
70 Draenei Priest
9545
Honestly that's where I was trying to go with it, but I didn't want it to become overpowered. As it stands I rarely use FoF unless I'm trying to stun trash/mobs =/
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Monk
12125
FOF feels like an ability that doesn't know if it wants to be AOE or single target, and doesn't excel at either.

Buff it's damage, but AOE cap it at 3-5 targets. It's now useful at single target and AOE situations. The AOE part is not really needed, because monks already have the most powerful melee AOE in the game, but it would be a nice to have since we don't really have a good use for chi generated via SCK.
Reply Quote
100 Pandaren Monk
12255
The problem I have with FoF is that it is inherently bad design, as well as Gameplay. Greg Street came out during Cata and stated that Slam was bad design. Slam, although casted, and not channeled, is the same as FoF in my eyes. It's a melee being required to stand still for part of their rotation to do damage. The reason why I suggested such a significant damage increase, is because they have made zero attempt to notify the WW community that they are going to fix FoF 5.1 so that we lower the channeling time on FoF without losing the 5th hit. I have plenty of ideas to make monk better, but sadly they are focused on balance, and not really engaging with the community. Especially such a new one as Monks. They've had 8 years to foster the other class communities and discuss things, but they've only had 2 months for ours, and won't give the light of day.
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Shaman
5230
11/15/2012 03:54 PMPosted by Rotund
Buff it's damage, but AOE cap it at 3-5 targets. It's now useful at single target and AOE situations. The AOE part is not really needed, because monks already have the most powerful melee AOE in the game, but it would be a nice to have since we don't really have a good use for chi generated via SCK.

Yes, I suggested something similar many times. I also gave it the RsK debuff, so it would basically replace RsK in the AE priority. That would work fine. But the monk dev likes it as it is, shrug.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]