Garalon Changes - Raid Finder, Normal, Heroic

100 Pandaren Monk
5085
Cleaving abilities are still unbalanced. Its not that every spec should have a way to cleave like a Rogue can, but more that abilities like blade flurry still provide too much advantage. We're progressing on this in normal mode, and as a raid leader, I still feel a LOT of pressure to recruit a Rogue, Warrior, or Mage (three classes we don't have at the moment, try as hard as I could to get/keep these classes for MoP it just didn't happen).

There's just way too much pressure to class stack right now in 10 mans. Garalon is a case in point, but there's still too much pressure to bring ranged over melee, or bring a very specific class set up, both for buffs and for encounter mechanics, to the point where if I have even one class with two players in it, (like 2 paladins, or 2 hunters) things start getting problematic. This expectations for 10 man raids is starting to become really unreasonable.

Can a balanced (or even slightly imbalanced) team take down a fight like normal or heroic Garalon in 10 man? Yes, but that is irrelevant, because it is still SO MUCH EASIER if you have Rogues, Mages, and Warriors, instead of WW Monks, Warlocks, and Ret Paladins.

There's still a lot of fights where, yes, its technically possible to kill the boss with lots of melee, but it is still EASIER to kill it with ranged. It is just easier to raid with a heavy ranged comp than to bring melee. Please don't "solve" this like you did in Dragon Soul, with ridiculous buffs and really boring stand-still encounters, though.
Edited by Ramayana on 11/10/2012 5:39 PM PST
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
20535
11/10/2012 03:58 PMPosted by Postonforums
I love how Blizzard enjoys telling us that the top raiders, the best of the best, are an EXTREME minority of the playerbase but when someone tells them that the enrage is incredibly hard to meet "We've seen heroic kills with balanced compositions"....Yes, from that exact elite playerbase which you tell us is the minority and they will kill bosses no matter what. Cool. I'm not one that thinks the enrage is too tight, but I also think telling people we have the top guilds in the world killing it with "balanced comps" the first week the heroics are available and using that to say the enrage timer is laughable. It's fine that you think the enrage is ok, just don't use the best players in the world as an your example of why it's ok.


Would you prefer they use the ones who hit the enrages on level 80 content at 90?


We all know middle ground doesn't exist....This simply goes against what they usually say, telling us the best in the world did it so it's fine. Way to go to the other extreme though, was useful.
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90 Worgen Death Knight
13995
11/10/2012 02:44 PMPosted by Crithto
So far, we've seen many Heroic kills (10H and 25H) where a balanced raid composition was utilized


how many is "many", I don't believe there has been a large number of kills

Besides we aren't talking about heroic anyway, for a normal mode he seems incredibly tough.
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8 Dwarf Priest
0
Catastrophically confident the LFR version of Garalon is going to remain unkillable for 99% of groups as long as the ability for one person to grief the entire raid via Crush remains in the game.

I'd love for Blizz to prove me wrong on this by publishing the win/loss % for that boss on LFR though.

I dunno, maybe they are leaving Crush in the game so everyone can learn a valuable life lesson. In any random group of 25-ish people on the planet, you're essentially guaranteed to have someone who will make it their life's mission, all their time and energy, to ruin your experience of anything.

Not like most of us didn't already know that, but I guess its valuable knowledge for the few people out there who haven't learned it yet. But if its going to be that way, we should be getting our bonus gold and 90 valor points after the 2nd boss from there, because I feel more likely to win the lottery than to get an LFR group that doesn't have someone sitting on the edge of their seat waiting to exploit Crush.

edit: WHOOOAAA!!! Just read the Blue post more closely. Crush on a cooldown huh? Well I was just in LFR like 5 minutes ago and if you call 4 seconds a cooldown then so be it but it doesn't prevent someone from griefing the raid and causing a very fast wipe. Even at 10 seconds, someone could still easily wipe a raid. Probably even at 20 seconds.

It just shouldn't be in there. Its a mechanism for allowing one player who has no emotional or other investment in the group of players he is with to cause them all an infinite (non-preventable) amount of grief, loss of time, etc.
Edited by Kolas on 11/10/2012 6:14 PM PST
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
20535
Catastrophically confident the LFR version of Garalon is going to remain unkillable for 99% of groups as long as the ability for one person to grief the entire raid via Crush remains in the game.



They said Crush will have a CD in LFR. Hopefully that helps. I do my LFR early on Tuesdays in hopes that good players who raid normal/HM Tuesday night are in there with me lol
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9890

Garalon's berserk timer on Normal and Heroic modes was adjusted from 6 minutes to 7 minutes last week. So far, we've seen many Heroic kills (10H and 25H) where a balanced raid composition was utilized, many of which were well ahead of the increased berserk timer.


As a guild who has to use two tanks we're having a serious issue with being able to beat the enrage timer. This fight is not well designed at all for guilds who don't have their tanks DPS offspecs geared. Any fight which makes the tanks role useless should be seriously reconsidered.
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23 Troll Druid
0
How does this work with combustion? If I spread an 80k ignite combustion from the leg to the boss, would combustion deal damage to the boss as if it were a 40k ignite combustion?
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4 Troll Hunter
0
11/10/2012 02:44 PMPosted by Crithto
The real question is, is this a change to underlying bf mechanics or just a special case change to garalon.

Sort of, and something we should take this opportunity to clarify. In Cataclysm, cleave-type mechanics double-dipped on damage bonuses, but we changed that universally in Patch 5.0 on a fundamental level. If you go back to Halfus or Wind Lord Mel'jarak, you'll find that cleave effects that derive their damage from the initial hit now only award the bonus damage on the target that is receiving increased damage.

Note that this works both ways. If you Sinister Strike a target that has a 50% damage reduction effect on it, your Blade Flurry will still do full damage to a secondary target, which previously would not have been the case.

The pending hotfix addresses a bug specific to the Garalon encounter which cause these new rules to not apply. Abilities that can hit a leg and the body simultaneously will still be extremely effective on the boss.

11/10/2012 10:48 AMPosted by Cyous
You realize that without stacking, a 6min enrage was really tough to meet--for a normal mode, right?

Garalon's berserk timer on Normal and Heroic modes was adjusted from 6 minutes to 7 minutes last week. So far, we've seen many Heroic kills (10H and 25H) where a balanced raid composition was utilized, many of which were well ahead of the increased berserk timer.


And now you have taken away the mechanic that allowed groups to beat enrage
Edited by Dinolok on 11/10/2012 6:14 PM PST
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38 Goblin Warlock
6100
11/10/2012 05:58 PMPosted by Nixilaas
So far, we've seen many Heroic kills (10H and 25H) where a balanced raid composition was utilized


how many is "many", I don't believe there has been a large number of kills

Besides we aren't talking about heroic anyway, for a normal mode he seems incredibly tough.


The whole 13 HM 10man kills (only 2 of us) is their basis for this. Normal is hard to beat the enrage as well for the average guild i just dont see why put the enrage at 7 mins to only rebuff the fight.
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100 Worgen Druid
16545
IT's about time you fix Blade Flurry cheat!
I don't care how many guilds have downed garalon and whatnot - an exploit like that must be fixed sooner or later, better sooner but it MUST be done anyways. Whole the ability is extremely cheesy and unfair to all other melee classes. It must be either gone completely or have a severe cost to use. How come your dps is instantly doubled with a presence of a secondary target nearby? To all the QQing rogues - work harder so they would bring you for your personal skill and DPS rather than a cheat ability. Do you honestrly believe doing over 200k dps is somehow balanced? Even with this behavior hotfix, it is still not enough. There must not be any class that can mindlessly double its DPS by pressing one button just because there is another target nearby.
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100 Night Elf Druid
18860
Anyone else read this as 'galleon changes' only to discover the ugh of the nerfbat?
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90 Pandaren Mage
17210
11/10/2012 04:18 PMPosted by Rakin
I helped down Garalon earlier in LFR. Myself and several others posted to chat repeatedly how bad purple circle, pheromone circles, stealing pheromone debuffs, etc, etc was to the raid... to no avail.


When I did it this week, a friend and I did pheremones, all I said when we pulled was dps the boss and stay out of the purple circle. We had I think 1 crush. No problem.
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90 Human Warrior
13190
You realize that without stacking, a 6min enrage was really tough to meet--for a normal mode, right?

Garalon's berserk timer on Normal and Heroic modes was adjusted from 6 minutes to 7 minutes last week. So far, we've seen many Heroic kills (10H and 25H) where a balanced raid composition was utilized, many of which were well ahead of the increased berserk timer.


Probably the single dumbest statement of the thread. Blood Legion brought what.. 4 warriors and 4 rogues? Midwinter used 4 rogues and 1 warrior. Pretty balanced raid compositions right there. After this change, berserk will absolutely be an issue for heroic progression. Not to mention even if berserk wasn't an issue, you're still asking guilds to go through more pheromone passing.

Making this change without an HP nerf is pretty dumb. You guys really dropped the ball on HoF balancing.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
14125
11/10/2012 02:44 PMPosted by Crithto
Abilities that can hit a leg and the body simultaneously will still be extremely effective on the boss.


Whatever happened to bring the player not the class ?!

The efficiency of some classes (both DPS and Heal) over others on this fight shows how unbalanced this tier is.
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100 Orc Warrior
14755
The change to SS on Garalon is STUPID. The whole mechanic behind arms warriors Sweeping Strikes is that a % of damage is transfered. It's what makes them so strong on fights where bosses take extra damage.

Blade fury, which only strikes an additional target I can see. SS, which transfers a percentage of damage done is different. Stupid changes, and shows the devs are clueless about warriors.
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100 Orc Warrior
14755
The change to SS on Garalon is STUPID. The whole mechanic behind arms warriors Sweeping Strikes is that a % of damage is transfered. It's what makes them so strong on fights where bosses take extra damage.

Blade fury, which only strikes an additional target I can see. SS, which transfers a percentage of damage done is different. Stupid changes, and shows the devs are clueless about warriors.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12215
Speaking as a spec that gets the short end of the stick with cleaving, I have no sympathy for you.

Get back to me when you get to have all the disadvantages of melee, no cleave, and only ok aoe.
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100 Gnome Rogue
23390
Can you explain why you announce nerfs to LFR, but dont restart the servers or announce when your going to restart the servers for them to take effect?

Its like saying "ya were gonna make ur life easier, but only when we get around to i. your gonna have to suffer on garalon for now"
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