Tank Lounge 53: Topic Tangential Tank Talk

90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
Welcome to the tank lounge.

This thread is a thread for us tanks to get a chance to meet each other and relax. This is the place to post about your adventures in tanking, vent about DPS/healers (gently), or just chat off-topic.

We are all friends here, so if you have any disagreements please take them outside, and please please follow the forum rules and code of conduct:

http://us.battle.net/en/community/conduct

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/900930866

The previous lounge can be found here:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7006892788?page=26

The first lounge:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2973014205

If this thread caps, I ask the person with post number 501: please create another thread with a similarly-themed name and post these rules; so we can continue discussion.

Celyn has personally emailed wowreportedpost@blizzard.com asking permission to post this thread here in the tanking forums and been told this thread is okay, so long as we follow the rules. So have a seat, relax and lets get to know each other!

Play nice, ladies and gentlemen.

Because I really couldn't miss the change to make an alliterative tank lounge thread, and since I apparently capped the last one.
90 Human Warrior
12145
11/12/2012 12:28 PMPosted by Krinu
Because I really couldn't miss the change to make an alliterative tank lounge thread, and since I apparently capped the last one.


And this is why you are best Krinu.
90 Draenei Paladin
14570
Gotta admit .. while I am very much enjoying the casual lifestyle, I do miss raiding. If I do go back to raiding I doubt I'll tank though. As DPS it won't matter so much if I miss a night of raiding but I feel like I should be there every night as a tank - given a 2 tank roster.

I have 2 weeks holiday starting the end of this week, so I think I'm going to see how I feel after that ..
86 Undead Death Knight
10495
Inc wall of text

From the previous tank lounge

What content would you design to find compelling?

Dailies: Reward rep, Valor, and (indirectly) Elder Charms, leading to a lot more loot access overall. This is bad because it takes too long and is required.
Scenarios: Aren't ever mentioned for whatever reason. They really don't seem to be working terribly well.
Heroics: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7004455597 You even posted in it!

So are we to believe that this game is filled with people who would only log on for raids and nothing else if they could, and complain that there's nothing else to do? Or are we to believe that people only want to log in for tangible upgrades, rather than piecemeal rewards that lead to upgrades? It seems you're arguing "yes" to both, and I would generally agree. People will log in for only raids, and complain about there being nothing else to do; we saw this in Cataclysm. Yes, people will also only log on for direct rewards; we see this in your complaints against the rewards from dailies, the rather indifferent attitude towards scenarios, and a thread of people stating they have no qualms about dropping heroics when there's nothing more they need.

So, design a system. Let's hear it.


Lets look at the problem in terms of available loot and the paths to get that loot.

IL450: Crafting
IL458: Justice Points, Honor Points
IL463: Heroic Dungeons
IL476: World Drop, LFR, Crafting2
IL483: Conquest Points, LFR2
IL489: Normal Raids, Valor + Rep
IL496: Normal Raid2 (or Conquest Point? Not sure)
IL502: Heroic Raid1
IL509: Heroic Raid2

So, PvP has a pretty well defined path. They'll get some IL458 Honor gear and work their way up to 483 Conquest gear (490 weapons). They don't have to farm rep, do dungeons or dailies, or do anything but PvP to get their PvP gear. Well done. Everything else is sketchy.

A raider might hit max level and try to get a bunch of 450 crafted gear then spam LFD to get full 463 Heroic Dungeon gear quickly and then hop into normal mode raids. Here's where the problem hits. Odds are you're not going to get every slot kitted out too quickly from raids. Even if you're completing them regularly, getting the right drops and having them go to you is pretty RNG. So you can end up with, say, 3-4 502, 3-4 496, 3-4 489s, and some leftover 463s. To "Fix" those leftover 463s, your options are Valor Points + Rep, LFR, or some second-level Crafting. Flipping through profiles, I don't see a single person who's in full epics without at least one of those three things, usually 2+. That's why they feel "forced" to do LFR or "forced" to do dailies; Because you're guaranteed to have some leftover slots and the most efficient way to fill them is to spend extra time doing something you don't enjoy, which people will do since there's a reward.

Next, consider the poor guy who loves dailies to death but doesn't raid or dungeon. He hits max, gets to 450ish gear from quests and maybe some crafting, but then he sees no power progression until he has the rep and valor to purchase il 489 gear, an *enormous* jump. They don't feel like they're making progress and just feel like a brutal grind doing hundreds of quests for absolutely no reason.

So, personally, I'd like to see each path have its own reward set with slightly better defined tiers. The problem comes down to reliable vs unreliable gear methods; For example, if you're certain that you could get 6 pieces of epic gear at exalted {Faction X}, you're going to do that because you're guaranteed to get it as opposed to raiding where you may or may not get your gear during {X} week. I think the answer to that is a larger change to the rep/daily system, but it bears significantly longer discussion.

tl;dr: The progression path for raiders is unreliable so they fall back on secondary progression paths for better reliability. This makes them feel "forced" to do things they don't enjoy and it hurts the potential for secondary progression paths.
86 Undead Death Knight
10495
11/12/2012 02:53 PMPosted by Sparklefever
Flipping through profiles, I don't see a single person who's in full epics without at least one of those three things, usually 2+.
It's also been less than two months since the expansion released, and even less since raids were released.


This is my point though. When there's an unreliable source of gear, people are going to go for a reliable source of supplementary gear to get the best they can have as fast as they can, even if they really don't enjoy the process. Telling them, "You don't have to have them right now, you can wait 3 weeks" doesn't help, it just makes them feel like you don't understand the problem, especially for people at the highest levels who are actually playing this game competitively.
90 Pandaren Warrior
15860
To "Fix" those leftover 463s, your options are Valor Points + Rep, LFR, or some second-level Crafting. Flipping through profiles, I don't see a single person who's in full epics without at least one of those three things, usually 2+


http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/proudmoore/Lenalee/advanced

Has the elegon trinket and feng ring but the rep items are better.

Could be full normal mode epics without it.
Edited by Ðemolition on 11/12/2012 3:04 PM PST
90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
If I were redesigning the system, here's how I'd do it:

1. You obtain base items. These items can come from many places: Crafting, quests, dungeons, raids, PvP vendors, whatever.

2. Depending on the source of the item, it has a certain number of "enhancement levels" applied to it. If the item is a low-tier crafted item, a quest reward, or a regular dungeon drop, it likely has none or one. If the item drops from a raid, it spawns with several enhancement levels already. Each enhancement level boosts the itemlevel of the item, adds sockets, and possibly even changes its quality from rare to epic.

3. You obtain currencies from various sources that allow you to increase the enhancement level of an item. The first several enhancements could be applied by tradeskills - blacksmiths making items that increase the enhancement level of a 0-tier weapon by 1, for example. After that, you need to use justice points to purchase enhancement tokens, which increase the enhancement level by 1. Once you've used a few of those, you need to use valor to upgrade the items. After a certain point, you need to use tokens that only drop in heroic raids to enhance your gear.

Some further points on how it could work:

1. Enhancement Tokens could only be applied to specific items. For example, you could get armor enhancement tokens, accessory enhancement tokens, and weapon enhancement tokens - allowing you to upgrade worn armor, jewelery/trinkets, and weapons/offhands respectively. How fine a control they want to maintain on this depends on how easy they want it for people to gear up. The more granularity, the more of a role luck has.

2. BoE versions of enhancement tokens could be purchased for a considerable markup - pretend it only takes 1500 JP to buy an accessory enhancement token that binds on pickup, but costs 3000 JP to buy one that's usable by anybody. In addition to allowing a trickle-down effect from mains to alts, this encourages people to run heroics despite outgearing them, because one could always sell the enhancement tokens.

3. Every time a new raid tier or PvP season unlocks, the cap on enhancement levels is shifted up one. If reaching 7 enhancement levels required heroic raid tokens, when the next patch drops, you could reach 7 enhancement levels with VP alone, and reaching the new cap of 9 levels would require heroic raid tokens.

There are several advantages to this system.

1. You can gear up, literally, any way you want. Don't like heroics? Get crafted gear, and do dailies to get the JP and VP to buy your enhancement tokens.
2. There is more itemization flexibility, because you can go grab a 463 blue from a heroic and upgrade it to be on par with a raiding weapon if your raid doesn't drop loot that's well itemized for you. Sure, it's more work, but the option is there.
3. There's a lot of room for cool evolving weapon art - instead of being forced to either copy skins or make entirely new ones, an enhanced item could simply be a more elaborate version of a previous model, perhaps with snazzy effects.
4. Prestige of raiders is still kept, because in order to reach the upper echelons of enhancements you need tokens that only drop from heroic raids.
5. Unlike the currently proposed system, it doesn't amount to a static +8 itemlevel boost to gear over time - it just provides different paths for players to reach the itemlevel of the current raid cap.

Anyway. That's how I'd do it, if I were designing the system. Thoughts?
86 Undead Death Knight
10495
11/12/2012 03:42 PMPosted by Krinu
Anyway. That's how I'd do it, if I were designing the system. Thoughts?


Moving into defined, linear upgrade paths is pretty risky in a world where the name of the game is random reward schedules. That system also runs into the issue of needing the base item to upgrade which can feel really bad for new players, or alternately if you can get drops with some enhancement levels already-in from raids, it makes new raid content feel weird since you're not seeing a new item drop, you're just seeing (your item + 1)
90 Blood Elf Paladin
7300
Hi,
I am a tank IRL too.
90 Blood Elf Priest
ONE
12520
11/12/2012 04:33 PMPosted by Descretoria
Anyway. That's how I'd do it, if I were designing the system. Thoughts?


Moving into defined, linear upgrade paths is pretty risky in a world where the name of the game is random reward schedules. That system also runs into the issue of needing the base item to upgrade which can feel really bad for new players, or alternately if you can get drops with some enhancement levels already-in from raids, it makes new raid content feel weird since you're not seeing a new item drop, you're just seeing (your item + 1)


The way I understood it, new raids would drop items that are new, and already at Enhancement Level 7 or whatever.

Seems like a good system, albeit a jarring change to get used to.
90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
Dammit, I thought I had taken out all the copies of that stupid AI. Now it's got control of a TANK?!?

FML.

11/12/2012 04:33 PMPosted by Descretoria
Moving into defined, linear upgrade paths is pretty risky in a world where the name of the game is random reward schedules.

That's certainly true, but there are ways to mitigate it. The easiest is to simply make the returns on enhancements for VP bad enough that you're going to need to rely on enhancement token drops from raid bosses to gear by the end of a tier.

We're restricted to 1000 VP per week, right? If each raid tier has 2-4 enhancement levels, and each enhancement requires, say, 750 VP, there's no way you're going be able to fully gear before a tier's over without getting some token drops from bosses.

11/12/2012 04:33 PMPosted by Descretoria
That system also runs into the issue of needing the base item to upgrade which can feel really bad for new players

It's no different than it is now. You could get a base item from a regular dungeon, a heroic dungeon, a high-end quest reward, crafting... essentially, the "base items" are just the 450+ blues we already have. There's still a random element there, in that you need the right drop - or crafted piece - before you can start enhancements.

11/12/2012 04:33 PMPosted by Descretoria
or alternately if you can get drops with some enhancement levels already-in from raids, it makes new raid content feel weird since you're not seeing a new item drop, you're just seeing (your item + 1)

The idea would be that each boss would drop a couple <Snazzy Items> with a tier-appropriate number of enhancement levels already baked in, plus one or two general-purpose enhancement tokens in heroic mode. You'd have a few new items flowing in, plus upgrades for existing gear.
Edited by Krinu on 11/12/2012 4:57 PM PST
86 Undead Death Knight
10495
Now that I think about it, what you're describing is pretty much functionally equivalent to what The Secret World uses.
90 Human Death Knight
8900
11/12/2012 02:20 PMPosted by Lowmaine
And this is why you are best Krinu.
Do we have more than one?
90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
11/12/2012 06:21 PMPosted by Guidance
And this is why you are best Krinu.
Do we have more than one?

It depends whether or not we count multiple personalities.
90 Human Warlock
6435
Am I allowed to say hello?!?!
90 Night Elf Priest
14020
Welcome back, Xayton!

11/12/2012 02:53 PMPosted by Sparklefever
TL;DR - People are adapting to epics not being handed out like candy like they were in Naxx, but they're still easy to get.

This is Mistana's priest. I'm missing epics in 4 slots, but I only hit 90 3 weeks ago. I have 2 valor pieces, 2 normal raid drops, tier gloves from Sha, 2 crafted pieces (one I made, one I bought), and I've had 7 items drop in LFR (not using the gloves/cloaks, since I have better). I definitely can't complain about how fast I'm gearing up, or how hard epics are to get.

Today, I did all of my dailies with friends. Yesterday, I did so on one toon, but had to do them alone on the other. It's not difficult to do on my own, but it does take longer, and I just don't enjoy solo play. If my friends/guildies are busy with other things or already did their dailies, then it does feel like drudgery. Sometimes I can find someone through General chat or run into someone to group with, but not reliably, and it's more fun with someone I know. To me, the point of a MMO is to play with other people, not by myself.

Yes, I feel "forced" for lack of a better word to do dailies in order to have access to the gear. I'm nearly finished with the rep grind now, but I'll still need to keep doing them for the elder charms. It's not that Blizzard literally takes control of my toon and whirls me through dailies, obviously, but I feel like I'm not doing my share to prepare for raid if I don't.

I don't really see the point of deliberately pushing people to do activities in a video game that they don't enjoy. For my gymnastics class, sure, I do sprints, and chinups, and such that aren't as much fun as the rest of the class, but I don't find them boring, and they actually improve my skills and my fitness, so I feel they have inherent worth.

Having people spend a half hour a day flying around to the different hubs in order to reach their dailies doesn't seem like it accomplishes anything useful.
Edited by Carissima on 11/12/2012 7:59 PM PST
90 Human Death Knight
8900
11/12/2012 07:22 PMPosted by Krinu
It depends whether or not we count multiple personalities.
I should hope we are.

Am I allowed to say hello?!?!

Welcome back. We've missed you.

.
I rediscovered SA forums.
Like I need another demand upon my time.
Edited by Guidance on 11/12/2012 8:00 PM PST
90 Human Warlock
6435
^_^_^_^_^_^

Yeah I am back, just not tanking.
90 Human Paladin
14020
Yeah, Garalon sucks. I can't fathom how you'd pull it off without

I took 6 guildies to the second half and just did kiting with our druid.

I was skimming through the previous tank lounge, and am curious if the nerf and more people getting familiar with the strat has fixed the issue, since I didn't see any other complaints. I did Garalon on this toon, and a full clear on my priest yesterday in about 45 minutes total.

Initially, I queued with a mdps who didn't help with kiting, but lucked into 2 people who both did a wonderful job (I was pocket heals for them, and stepped in as kiter when needed). One of them and the tank, who hadn't done it before, came with me on my priest. The new kiting buddy we got also hadn't done it before, but picked it up right away.

I think you have better luck if you can bring at least one other kiter, and preferably a tank who knows what they're doing, but if you explain it, I think people will catch on pretty fast. We had several crushes go through, and other raid members messed up pheremones a couple times, but we were able to recover it. Took a couple attempts on each toon, but really not that bad.
Edited by Mistana on 11/12/2012 8:09 PM PST
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