Tank Lounge 53: Topic Tangential Tank Talk

90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
I think that's sort of the objection, though, Desc.

It's not that we can't complete the content without it, it's that we're at a comparative disadvantage if we don't. Rather than being "something to do if you don't like running dungeons" it's "another thing you need to do to be as effective as possible."

Put it this way: If dailies allowed you to purchase 463 level weapons and armor as you gained reputation, people would have a choice between doing heroics for gear or running dailies for gear. Right now, you're forced to do heroics for the rares, then do dailies for a better selection of epics, and then raids for the rest.

It's not a different path to the same place, it's a different path to a different place, and we need to tag all of them to be optimally set up. I don't hate dailies, but I'd like not to be tied to them.
86 Undead Death Knight
10495
11/13/2012 04:27 PMPosted by Krinu
It's not that we can't complete the content without it, it's that we're at a comparative disadvantage if we don't. Rather than being "something to do if you don't like running dungeons" it's "another thing you need to do to be as effective as possible."


Oh I understand the issue, c.f. http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7006897496?page=1#4

I just think part of it is player mindset. Is the difference between winning an encounter and not winning an encounter as small as two upgrades from six weeks of dailies? If it's not, is it worth bothering with the dailies?
100 Human Warlock
17065
Devs? In my thread? It's more likely than you think! They've stated they read the role forums regularly, though who knows what threads they read :P

Oh, I'm aware they read the role forums. I'd just be surprised if they read this thread. It's generally tomfoolery and other such shenanigans, so if they're looking for feedback I'm sure they know this isn't the place.

I just think part of it is player mindset. Is the difference between winning an encounter and not winning an encounter as small as two upgrades from six weeks of dailies? If it's not, is it worth bothering with the dailies?

It's really hard to look at it through the lens of "I can do without them." If we choose that route, can't we basically just prune it down to "only log on for raid times"? We don't need that last upgrade from heroics, we don't need that piece of VP gear, we don't need that LFR drop. It's just a compulsion of sorts to try and have everything that's available to us.

Remember when 10 and 25 were separate lockouts? 25m raiders didn't need to do 10s either. Those extra few items were not going to help them clear normal modes.
Edited by Serinicas on 11/13/2012 4:43 PM PST
1 Draenei Paladin
0
11/13/2012 04:42 PMPosted by Serinicas
It's really hard to look at it through the lens of "I can do without them." If we choose that route, can't we basically just prune it down to "only log on for raid times"? We don't need that last upgrade from heroics, we don't need that piece of VP gear, we don't need that LFR drop. It's just a compulsion of sorts to try and have everything that's available to us.


Most people are only looking at it in extremes. Extremes are bad. The whole process is a continuum of improving your character. I did the math in R&D: capping valor every week is worth .35 ilvl. It's such a tiny, tiny benefit over such a prolonged period of time, that if you really hate doing anything but raiding you don't have to do it and you likely won't notice a difference.

Yes, we feel compelled to complete anything that is available for us to complete--which leads to complaints about feeling overwhelmed. The only other option is gating and artificially low limits on doing things like dailies--which then leads to more complaints about how we feel like Blizzard won't let us accomplish anything.
Edited by Mnemonic on 11/13/2012 4:47 PM PST
90 Pandaren Warrior
15860
You can completely ignore cleave now on garalon LFR lol.

1 tank takes pheromones and run laps.

collect loot
Edited by Ðemolition on 11/13/2012 4:48 PM PST
86 Undead Death Knight
10495
It's really hard to look at it through the lens of "I can do without them." If we choose that route, can't we basically just prune it down to "only log on for raid times"? We don't need that last upgrade from heroics, we don't need that piece of VP gear, we don't need that LFR drop. It's just a compulsion of sorts to try and have everything that's available to us.

Remember when 10 and 25 were separate lockouts? 25m raiders didn't need to do 10s either. Those extra few items were not going to help them clear normal modes.


To me it comes down to time investment and enjoyment. If I have to run 50 LFDs for an upgrade I'll do it in a heartbeat since I love LFD. If I have to do 50 days of dailies for an upgrade, I'll skip it since I hate questing. I agree that it's a tough call though. [ed: Tenses are hard]

As for the 10/25 thing I was doing competitive heroic raiding, so I absolutely did both, and I think that's the situation most people that were complaining were in; It wasn't bad for normal mode players who didn't care, it was bad for people who suddenly had to put in twice as much time to be competitive. To be fair though, limited-attempt encounters were much worse since that forced us all to reroll our mains for more tries :(
Edited by Descretoria on 11/13/2012 4:50 PM PST
90 Night Elf Druid
17755
Most people are only looking at it in extremes. Extremes are bad. The whole process is a continuum of improving your character. I did the math in R&D: capping valor every week is worth .35 ilvl. It's such a tiny, tiny benefit over such a prolonged period of time, that if you really hate doing anything but raiding you don't have to do it and you likely won't notice a difference.

Yes, we feel compelled to complete anything that is available for us to complete--which leads to complaints about feeling overwhelmed. The only other option is gating and artificially low limits on doing things like dailies--which then leads to more complaints about how we feel like Blizzard won't let us accomplish anything.


That's not really it either.

The other problem dailies have now is that the reason Blizzard removed Dungeon tabards is that they didn't want Dungeons to dip into Gear and Valor.

Dailies dip into Valor, Charms, Recipes, Mounts. It's not really a wonder that many people are seeing a World of Dailies because literally everything is invested through Dailies.

The math that you did in R&D really doesn't apply. A raid group is (almost guaranteed) going into 5.1 with 3k Valor on every person. Instant upgrade of weapons and trinkets has a massive impact, and given that it creates an ongoing thing which will feed into next tier's requirements, and has issues with next tier's tuning and even reward scheme (it's going to be extremely awkward if this tier allows people to have 509+8 gear and next Tier is dropping 515 (496+19), meaning that you'll have these things drop, that are theoretically potential upgrades, but you have to upgrade them with Valor acquired in the new tier to make them an upgrade).

Ultimately, given the rate of acquisition of Valor and the rate of being able to use Valor, not caring about it is potentially going to cost a person 5% dps (if they have a bunch of slots unupgraded, but upgraded a few other slots, and counting upgrades that people made that then got replaced)
Edited by Slashlove on 11/13/2012 5:26 PM PST
90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
11/13/2012 04:42 PMPosted by Serinicas
Oh, I'm aware they read the role forums. I'd just be surprised if they read this thread. It's generally tomfoolery and other such shenanigans, so if they're looking for feedback I'm sure they know this isn't the place.

True... but on the other hand, it's tomfoolery and shenanigans from some of the most involved, invested, and intelligent players of the game, so even idle chatter can be worth listening in on. Plus, since there isn't a direct developer presence, we're not trying to appeal to them for what we want, we're just talking over ideas.

If I were a developer, these would be the kinds of threads I'd monitor, not the "OMG QQ NERF PLZ" ones you see. Obviously, following what people are upset about matters, too, but you get far more accurate insight into what people think from threads like these than from posts that are begging for something.

I just think part of it is player mindset. Is the difference between winning an encounter and not winning an encounter as small as two upgrades from six weeks of dailies? If it's not, is it worth bothering with the dailies?

I know I'm a little strange, but for me it's not really about downing the bosses, it's about performing in the most optimal fashion that I can. I gain more satisfaction from putting together an optimal character than I do from the challenge of beating a boss. I don't play for prestige, or progression, I play for the elegance of a properly built and kitted out character, and the potential that it represents - not the actuality.

But I'm weird.
100 Human Paladin
17835
Today I began a spreadsheet to track how many virmen/birds I have to kill, tangled/smothered weeds I have to uproot, etc. every time I farm my herbs/motes.
1 Draenei Paladin
0
11/13/2012 05:12 PMPosted by Slashlove
(it's going to be extremely awkward if this tier allows people to have 509+8 gear and next Tier is dropping 515 (496+19), meaning that you'll have these things drop, that are theoretically potential upgrades, but you have to upgrade them with Valor acquired in the new tier to make them an upgrade).


How's that any different from picking up pieces but not using them until you get other pieces to shuffle around for tier bonuses? It's not a new concept at all.

11/13/2012 05:12 PMPosted by Slashlove
Ultimately, given the rate of acquisition of Valor and the rate of being able to use Valor, not caring about it is potentially going to cost a person 5% dps (if they have a bunch of slots unupgraded, but upgraded a few other slots, and counting upgrades that people made that then got replaced)


I would argue that 5% is within the range of variance you experience from one attempt to the next regardless of gear changes.
90 Night Elf Druid
17755
How's that any different from picking up pieces but not using them until you get other pieces to shuffle around for tier bonuses? It's not a new concept at all.


It's different because for a start,
- It applies to EVERY slot, including potentially trinkets, unless those pieces are always given some kind of ridiculous boost jump, like an additional socket (which would arms race from t14 to t15 to t16) beyond just standard "better procs as tiers go on".
- It layers on top of that, to the point that you can actually have all 4 pieces of your tier and not want to use that collective 4pc because the ilvl variation overshadows the slightly better set bonus.
- Weapons. Not wanting to upgrade a weapon is pretty huge, especially since that rebounds with the current design for Sha-Touched Weapons in general.
- It makes for a permanent Normal/Heroic conflict in terms of your Valor use.

I would argue that 5% is within the range of variance you experience from one attempt to the next regardless of gear changes.


Not on RAID dps on a permanent basis for all attempts, it isn't.

Just because you can range between 76 and 84k dps on a fight doesn't mean that you would accept taking that down to 72 to 80k, especially when the cumulative effect is on your raid's overall dps (your raid dps functions on the likelihood that while some people might hit tup end, some low, it averages out)
Edited by Slashlove on 11/13/2012 6:51 PM PST
90 Human Death Knight
8900
11/13/2012 03:16 PMPosted by Rijdot
DAMMIT I HAVE SO MANY DARKMOON CARDS THAT ARE NOT FREAKING SELLING
From what I can see, our realm prices seem to be the same.

On my realm, it's because so many people have cards and can't move them because they're trying to sell them at prices from first DMF.

First DMF, I sold 5 at 20k, after listing them progressively from 120k to 30k. Finally sold them the weekend before at 20k.

Now, people are asking 30k (-ish--varying by trinket). Ten times as many sellers are asking virtually the same price as when there was no LFR around.

I anticipate success selling them for 15k, when I get off my backside and sell them. (I don't want to pay 5k in AH cuts again).

11/13/2012 02:38 PMPosted by Andrraste
DO people hate all dailies in general? For me, I hate hate hated Golden Lotus and Klaxxi. Mostly because they were long quest chains that involved a lot of the typical stuff that I hate about questing.
I have not enjoyed dailies since I was a nubcake grinding SSO exalted on 7. Freaking. Characters. And back then, I could run MgT, too.

Now, doing the same 5 of 7 instances in a row for rep (at 10-15 min each) sounds more compelling than doing the same 20 of 100 dailies in a row for rep. Except: I can't get rep from dungeons anymore (and ~no gear from Scenarios), so goodbye endgame content, hello leveling alts and abusing AH.

Back in WLK, there were twice as many instances to random (UK, UP, Nexus, Oc, DTK, GD, AN, OK, HoO, HoS, CoS, then ToC, FoS, PoS, HoR) and in Cata, only 7 + 2 + 3. Those numbers don't seem like a lot, but I was far more motivated in WLK than Cata. Even in Cata, I just got geared for HoTs, then only ran HOTs until geared for LFR. Back in WLK, I ran those first 11 endlessly, until I had more EoH than I could spend. (Seriously. There were not many things to buy with EoH.)

Then EoC (Ulduar) and EoT (ToC) were released and I didn't both to come back and raid until ICC, when all of that currency accumulated in patches wouldn't be worthless. (The logic made sense at the time.) Not to mention cool-looking gear and a raid with more than 5 bosses.

I barely touched dailies in WLK, too. I quested through the whole continent on one character, just to see the lore, but I didn't do that until in mostly 251 gear.

True... but on the other hand, it's tomfoolery and shenanigans from some of the most involved, invested, and intelligent players of the game, so even idle chatter can be worth listening in on. Plus, since there isn't a direct developer presence, we're not trying to appeal to them for what we want, we're just talking over ideas.
They claim to read every thread on each of the forums.

That's not to say: you don't make a persuasive argument.
Edited by Guidance on 11/13/2012 7:51 PM PST
1 Draenei Paladin
0
11/13/2012 06:42 PMPosted by Slashlove
Just because you can range between 76 and 84k dps on a fight doesn't mean that you would accept taking that down to 72 to 80k, especially when the cumulative effect is on your raid's overall dps (your raid dps functions on the likelihood that while some people might hit tup end, some low, it averages out)


You might accept that if you realized that the 4k difference in DPS is the culmination of 24 straight weeks of capping your valor.

If you don't want to cap valor, then don't. It's not worth it if you don't like doing the content.
90 Pandaren Monk
15630
sha of fear dropped my shoulder =D

and tsulong gave me the OP trinket on the coin =D

and we got world 10th on sha of fear ... people are not raiding or what? o.O

ps. the 1st boss, the elite mode is not nearly as hard as we thought .. we killed the boss on the 2nd pull ¬¬
90 Human Death Knight
8900
Somehow, level 83 tanks see a healer doing 20k DPS and conclude: "hm, maybe I should wait 15 sec between pulls and more before bosses."

A HEALER.

DISC.

20k DPS.

y u no use brian?

My mana is FIIIIINE. GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
86 Orc Warlock
13530
Second week of smashing our faces on Elegon. Third add keeps on spawning right before Draw Power. We've been trying ranged on Protectors and then melee on Protectors and then having melee not reset stacks on first Protector. Nothing seems to work. [Sigh]
90 Orc Warrior
17020
11/13/2012 09:04 PMPosted by Sparklefever
I was guessing most guilds were attempting H HoF instead


^

And I guess we'll try the elite way next week. The way this week was easy enough though. I guess you kill Regail first? Corrupting Waters seems like it'd still be a good thing.
90 Pandaren Warrior
15860
sha of fear dropped my shoulder =D

and tsulong gave me the OP trinket on the coin =D

and we got world 10th on sha of fear ... people are not raiding or what? o.O

ps. the 1st boss, the elite mode is not nearly as hard as we thought .. we killed the boss on the 2nd pull ¬¬


You can do elite mode on normal?
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