How feedback works and why it matters

11/14/2012 10:05 PMPosted by Virtutis
In relation to the feedback issue, as someone who spent years in CS in other jobs and was also mentor and counselor to teens that had issues I know what it is like to talk to people who are angry. One the absolute worst things you can do with someone who is angry is try to tell them that their anger is misplaced, unwarranted or un-constructive. While it is nice to encourage feedback that is the "most useful" to developers, feedback will not always be phrased as such. 100 people all referring to the same ability with just "this sucks" means that there could be serious issues with that ability. I get the feeling that in this case, all that feedback would be dismissed due to some moral impertinence attitude of developers.


This is so true, I totally agree. I also work in a capacity where feedback matters in my job and if I only considered "calm, well-written/spoken, constructive" feedback, I would be missing the boat on finding out what my customers what.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10545
In relation to the feedback issue, as someone who spent years in CS in other jobs and was also mentor and counselor to teens that had issues I know what it is like to talk to people who are angry. One the absolute worst things you can do with someone who is angry is try to tell them that their anger is misplaced, unwarranted or un-constructive. While it is nice to encourage feedback that is the "most useful" to developers, feedback will not always be phrased as such. 100 people all referring to the same ability with just "this sucks" means that there could be serious issues with that ability. I get the feeling that in this case, all that feedback would be dismissed due to some moral impertinence attitude of developers.


This is so true, I totally agree. I also work in a capacity where feedback matters in my job and if I only considered "calm, well-written/spoken, constructive" feedback, I would be missing the boat on finding out what my customers what.


Well, I guess they expect everyone to have the same literary skills as Hemingway

I mean, I can drink Mojitos and Daiquiris just like him, but there's no way I can match his prose and use that to provide feedback/complaints on certain parts of the game I don't agree with.

*Though I'd say I'm at least more composed than the average forum poster. Some people are just frothy
Edited by Klaudandus on 11/15/2012 9:37 AM PST
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90 Draenei Shaman
13905
What they didn't do -- what they have never done and cannot ever do -- is simply go to the forums, see who yelled loudest, and give them everything they wanted.


It has happened before. Maybe they dont make it exactly how the players wanted but it does get changed from the yelling loud syndrome.
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90 Night Elf Druid
13785


Compared to server transferring or merging... yeah its seamless. Contextual comparisons aren't strong in you...


once you've transferred the worlds back to normal, plus server transfers affect only those that do it, not everyone in the game.

So saying transfers are less seamless than CRZ is a bad comparison.


Hardly, not many other ways to force people to be out and about on dead servers without actually putting people there short of making new character creations FORCED onto certain servers.
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90 Orc Warrior
21250
11/15/2012 07:26 AMPosted by Fiin
And the large trends tend to be pretty representative of the in-game opinion.


They really don't. They represent the largest issue that players are upset enough to act on yes, but they aren't even remotely close to being something that the majority or even a large number of players in-game are concerned over.

It might be the biggest issue on the forums right now, but in-game it's hardly even an issue. Certainly not one I have yet to see discussed in guild, party, LFD, trade, or zone. Someone mentioned it in LFR but they were quite clearly baiting a response simply because it's gotten so ridiculous on these forums lately.

I know it might feel like everyone is together on this issue and anyone that disagrees is just trollin' but we aren't. I like dailies. A lot. I enjoy having something to log in and do. I enjoy the interactive story they tell as my reputation progresses. I enjoy that there are multiple hubs with changes of scenery. I enjoy having to put time and effort into my rewards and I enjoy that I can do so at a reasonable pace because I exercise self-control and take responsibility for my time management and my actions.

The largest problem with the "feedback" on these forums seems to be that it is assumed everyone is in agreement on something and that Blizzard is the badguy, and also that for some reason people decided to hinge their argument on the false statement that dailies are required or mandatory. Even if they were, where is it mandated that you need to have the reputation at exalted before 5.1? Before 2013? Before the next expansion?
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90 Tauren Druid
10115
I remember in Cata, a lot of people said the game was too easy
not enough conflict with the horde and alliance,
people were bored of sitting at the city
not enough to do.

As a result, MoP has a LOT of stuff to do, the game provides a lot of challenges, world pvp, and what i love is that the only time i need to go back to Orgrimmar is to mess with the AH.

I really love this game and I appreciate all the work Blizzard has put into this expansion.
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90 Night Elf Druid
13785
11/15/2012 09:43 AMPosted by Brage
If people want to see more people out and about let people have free server transfers with cool downs do NOT screw up the game for everyone else, why should I lag or disconnect or dismount for months just because someone wants to see someone else in a zone that they will most likely be in for about an hour maybe two tops.


First: Get a better computer/connection. The computer I'm on right now is XP and cost me a massive 200 bucks on ebay and is beat to hell. I can't run much on it at the same time but all the lag/disconnect/dismount nonsense is a bunch of crap overinflated on the forums. Seriously I use CRZ often and other than a moment of phasing out/in to reestablish realms is hardly game changing.

Second: Offering free moves actually only gets so many people to a location and STILL leaves dead servers... fixing nothing.
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90 Human Rogue
11855
11/14/2012 10:05 PMPosted by Virtutis
100 people all referring to the same ability with just "this sucks" means that there could be serious issues with that ability. I get the feeling that in this case, all that feedback would be dismissed due to some moral impertinence attitude of developers.


This is what people don't understand about where Rogues are currently. They all say "You guys were good in Cata," like somehow being good in the end of one expansion means you have to completely sit out another expansion and watch the basic concepts of your class be gutted. You'd have to really, really struggle to find a single Rogue who's happy with the way things are. Over at the Rogue forums I'd literally say that the only players I've seen post positively about Rogue changes are usually only a few months into the game. We've been begging for help since Beta and have gotten nothing, and the blue posts are insisting that Rogues are fine and fun to play. As if somehow the entire Rogue community just doesn't understand its own class anymore. I understand that feedback CAN matter, but SOMETIMES it DOESN'T, especially when you're not a popular class.

The result has been that multiple heroic raiders & R1 Rogues (players who are far superior to myself and have a vast knowledge about the history of our class) have been very vocal and issued well-structured threads as to why they're abandoning the class. Now we're sitting with a 2% 3v3 representation, which is sad considering that you really shouldn't have a non-hybrid class that can't PvP either.

Obviously we don't hate everything, we're not just a bunch of mindless pessimists. For one, I'm glad we have an AoE rotation now. Disguise is probably one of the coolest glyphs I've ever seen. I love Shuriken Toss, particularly that it applies poisons and can be used while moving. I like being able to switch weapons without having to reapply poisons. I could go on. However, we still have serious issues. So my point is, when you've got an entire class/community begging for dev attention since Beta, and the response is that "Rogues are fine," how is feedback important? I'm not trying to rail against Blizz, obviously I pay for the game and like it, and Blizz is certainly not the big scary monster some people insist that it is. But I genuinely want to know what's going on.
Edited by Carroway on 11/15/2012 10:00 AM PST
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90 Night Elf Druid
13785
Indeed! They deny it, but it is absolutely the truth that the loudest yelling leads to results.


Kinda like how the Tanks yelled and yelled and yelled about how broken Block Cap was... that certainly got it fixed during Cataclysm...

Wait...

But if that counts then literally ALL changes are the result of someone somewhere complaining... which makes for a terrible sample size of proof.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
13055
Having a Chris Griffin WHHHATTT moment...

**I'd call CRZ a lot of things but seamless is not even on the same planet.


Compared to server transferring or merging... yeah its seamless. Contextual comparisons aren't strong in you...


Sure, disruption in the gaming experience every time you cross a zone is much more seamless than a one-time event that changes things for you.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
3485
I think the devs don't want polls, because they don't want upper management to know what the customers really want.


11/15/2012 06:35 AMPosted by Donnicton


Yes, and that's exactly why the devs like it, I think. They get to massage and spin and filter the data before upper management gets to see it.

More objective polling, they couldn't do that.


It's also a handy dismissal button for them. What more convenient way could exist to dismiss any argument that you don't agree with and brush aside as unimportant, than always having the ability to simply stamp it as a post by some vocal fringe minority that's not representative of a real population?


Sometimes I wonder what people like this think goes on at an average day at Blizzard.
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90 Night Elf Priest
8415
Feedback is important, both positive and negative. The way you construct your post, be it in a constructive way, or with yelling, is going to determine the response you get. I see a lot of really good posts on here that are not flame bait and are well thought out, but too many are basically either parroting what has been said in literally hundreds of other threads, or is down right volatile.Constructive discourse is the best discourse! :)


exactly! people need to say what they dont like and why it needs changed, there a big differance between

a.) i dont like crz, it sucks

and

b.)i dont like crz because it seems there to many people per zone, this quest doesnt drop the item required often enough, ect. ect.

please keep it constructive so blizz know what we dont like exactly so they know what to change. there are to many posts like a.) for them to realy know what to change about there new features....
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90 Undead Rogue
6675
11/15/2012 09:51 AMPosted by Fasc
Seriously I use CRZ often and other than a moment of phasing out/in to reestablish realms is hardly game changing.


How do you "use CRZ" when you have no control over it?
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10545
11/15/2012 09:39 AMPosted by Skrump
I want to draw your attention to a self-serving, misguided, brown-nosing article by Matt "Fanboi" Rossi


Fixt.


The same Matthew Rossi, who along with Mike Sacco, spent 45 mins criticizing Blizzard on the reputation and dailies debacle?

http://wow.joystiq.com/2012/10/25/the-wow-insider-show-episode-266-on-rep-and-dailies-in-mop/
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You guys have been working on all this scaling tech so use it! Turn the entire 1-60 Azeroth into a giant daily playground! Once you get to 90 you get an option to turn on scaling to bring you back to an appropriate clvl/ilvl upon entering an area of a zone. You'd still have all of your 90 skills, all of your 90 mounts but you could redo the content you love as much as you like. Every quest you complete would get you level 90 levels of exp and gold. Every 10 million exp you get a token. Bam. You got people out in the world doing the stuff that they really want to do instead. Turn on CRZ for scaled/appropriate levelled players only and PvP becomes a bit more fair/sane. Trade in half a dozen tokens or so a week for some piece you need to make a 489 piece just like how you gate Elder Coins now.


This is an AWESOME suggestion and I love it!
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90 Blood Elf Mage
13275
Your premise that CRZ was not influenced by feedback is horribly dismissive and incorrect. Countless suggestions have cropped up for literally years about low population servers and the like, and more often than not the most common of suggestion 

...

Excellent point.

The "too many dailies" complaint is a result of the "not enough to do" and "make it meaningful" -- the solution is to have introduced the factions in waves rather than at launch. They can not quite do that now, but I think it will be a lesson learned in the future.

Now they just need CRZ guilds and AH and things should get better.
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