-Feedback- Hunter Bugs and Marksmanship Spec

90 Dwarf Hunter
14590
What's the point? I'd rather it stay the way it is rather than bake it into Useless Sting. The dot just would make it annoying to swap targets and CC the current target, and the dot does no noteworthy damage in PvP so that would actually be a downgrade.


Totally agree with this. I was just trying to make a point of what he said. On the lines of WV, maybe if they changed our glove bonus to WV applying like Marked for Death. I really like the trap cd reduction, but I think a free MS like every other class would be more effective.
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90 Orc Hunter
5035
11/11/2012 12:41 PMPosted by Nyess
What's the point? I'd rather it stay the way it is rather than bake it into Useless Sting. The dot just would make it annoying to swap targets and CC the current target, and the dot does no noteworthy damage in PvP so that would actually be a downgrade.


Totally agree with this. I was just trying to make a point of what he said. On the lines of WV, maybe if they changed our glove bonus to WV applying like Marked for Death. I really like the trap cd reduction, but I think a free MS like every other class would be more effective.


Yeah. Either that or get rid of WV entirely and balance us around NOT being an MS class, but I feel making us a valid MS class would be better at this point.
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90 Undead Hunter
7685
Awesome post, completely supported.
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100 Troll Hunter
17565
Awful comparison. Yes, it grants 40% attack speed and +12% pvp damage across all specs, yup.

The only difference is it grants MM focus, but that's part of the whole Marksman FOCUS PACKAGE.

1) Stampede unleashes your inactive pets across all specs
2) BM doesn't benefit from haste as much as MM does (which was the point, not the Focus aspect, but....). Aimed Dumping benefits a ton from Rapid Fire.
3) Pet damage is part of the whole Beastmastery DAMAGE PACKAGE
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90 Human Hunter
6905
11/11/2012 10:53 AMPosted by Tosan
I still want Mastery to effect BM . I don't agree with gimping them for the sake of helping other specs by their diminishment.


Completely backwards logic. You're okay with gimping SV/MM by not having Stampede be EQUAL across all specs? You just contradicted yourself....."I don't agree with gimping them for the sake of helping other specs" - but that's exactly what the BM mastery does to the other 2 specs.......it needs to be even across all specs. Maybe if they get rid of BM mastery effecting Stampede, Stampede should be buffed at a baseline level since it's pretty awfully weak as MM.

The only Shot they can fairly merge the widow debuff into is Arcane but they won't. It is a physical debuff and undispellable we will have to suffer sadly


This doesn't really make sense, Mortal Strike is a physical debuff, and even Wound Poison, even though it's not physical, is spam applied so dispelling it is useless......not sure why you think this would be the issue.


I would rather MM get some % of ArPen mixed into their Mastery.

I would love to have a debuff with arcane But after the arcane/tranq debuff thing from BC and the forum howls I don't think we will ever get anything with arcane shot any more. Not because it isn't a good idea it is because we will never be lucky enough to get good design without some illogical nerf from greg street.

Tranq Shot is something that can be swapped and spammed. SrS has a cooldown and is dispellable. They won't combine for hunters a physical non-dispellable and a dispellable plus with cooldown.
Edited by Itukaaj on 11/11/2012 2:49 PM PST
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90 Orc Hunter
5035
Awful comparison. Yes, it grants 40% attack speed and +12% pvp damage across all specs, yup.

The only difference is it grants MM focus, but that's part of the whole Marksman FOCUS PACKAGE.

1) Stampede unleashes your inactive pets across all specs
2) BM doesn't benefit from haste as much as MM does (which was the point, not the Focus aspect, but....). Aimed Dumping benefits a ton from Rapid Fire.
3) Pet damage is part of the whole Beastmastery DAMAGE PACKAGE


1) Except they do 40%+ Damage as BM (nice leaving that part out rofl)

2) Haste is virtually worthless in PvP, we're not talking raid DPS here buddy. Using Aimed Shot as an example as a focus dump is an AWFUL way to compare, because again, it's our TOTAL DAMAGE PACKAGE - you have to compare raw damage, just because it's APPLIED DIFFERENTLY doesn't mean it cannot be directly compared, derp. I thought this was common sense by now....Aimed Shot is not very strong as it is, and if we're talking pure damage dealing here, BM and MM are on par with eachother in both PvE and PvP roughly. Horrible comparison, yet again, because you fail to grasp the obvious big picture.

Both specs are on par when it comes to dps UNTIL STAMPEDE IS USED, then BM jumps way ahead. That is not equality. So either admit you want an advantage as BM over other specs, or admit you're wrong.

3) Right, your PET deals lots of damage as it is, just like we deal our damage with Aimed Shot - this has nothing to do with a BASELINE ABILITY being virtually useless for 2/3 specs, and extremely good for 1 spec.

Again you miss the point entirely. If you want to compare your mastery to something, compare it to wild quiver. Your mastery adds to the TOTAL SUM OF YOUR DPS, just like OUR MASTERY, they are ON PAR (because both specs do similar DPS in PvE and PvP in total).

So if MM and BM mastery are equal for general DPS, why should 1 of them VASTLY BUFF a BASELINE (ALL SPECS INCLUSIVE) ability? That puts BM mastery ABOVE MM MASTERY, thus giving it an ADVANTAGE.

God this is so simple yet peoples dinosaur brains can't seem to grasp it. Soooo simple.
Edited by Tosan on 11/11/2012 2:45 PM PST
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90 Human Hunter
6905
The issue is PVE damage is calculated into the masteries and the abilites therof. So, it unbalances the PVE side.. Now they could limit masteries for Stampede but then that would be an overall damage nerf to BM.

It is how they model masteries as part of the whole package mostly for PVE but it has PVP consequences.
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90 Human Hunter
6905
Again, this Is why I would like ArPen mixed in with MM Mastery besides the AutoShot thingy because it can be balanced in PVE so would be more of a way we can get extra damage in PVP off of Aimed and Chimera (buffing them indirectly)
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100 Troll Hunter
17565
11/11/2012 02:44 PMPosted by Tosan
1) Except they do 40%+ Damage as BM (nice leaving that part out rofl)

I have a relatively decent amount of mastery, and my pets only deal 26% more damage. Again, pets are part of the damage package for BM. I know Stampede is stronger for BM than MM/SV, my point that in of itself, that is not a bad thing. MM/SV have other strengths, not tied into 5 min cooldown (granted, those strengths are undertuned atm).

2) Haste is virtually worthless in PvP, we're not talking raid DPS here buddy. Using Aimed Shot as an example as a focus dump is an AWFUL way to compare, because again, it's our TOTAL DAMAGE PACKAGE - you have to compare raw damage, just because it's APPLIED DIFFERENTLY doesn't mean it cannot be directly compared, derp. I thought this was common sense by now....Aimed Shot is not very strong as it is, and if we're talking pure damage dealing here, BM and MM are on par with eachother in both PvE and PvP roughly. Horrible comparison, yet again, because you fail to grasp the obvious big picture.

Well, in the next patch, Aimed hard casting is going to be more prevalent in PVP, due to the glyph. And, why is it bad awful to compare using Aimed dumping, when we are talking about total damage packages? (You are referring to a damage cooldown, i.e. Stampede).
And yes, MM tools are undertuned.

Both specs are on par when it comes to dps UNTIL STAMPEDE IS USED, then BM jumps way ahead. That is not equality. So either admit you want an advantage as BM over other specs, or admit you're wrong.

No, I admit MM/SV need help, but you don't have to nerf BM to get it. Chimera Shot, Aimed Shot, and Explosive shot could all use a damage boost (or at least, something that makes those specs have more bang to them).

3) Right, your PET deals lots of damage as it is, just like we deal our damage with Aimed Shot - this has nothing to do with a BASELINE ABILITY being virtually useless for 2/3 specs, and extremely good for 1 spec.

You mean like Rapid Fire? If it wasn't for the PVP Set bonus, Rapid Fire is a relatively crappy CD for BM. As you mentioned, we have strong Focus recovery, the only attacks we have that benefit are Cobra (and not Mastery buffed not SV) and Auto Shot (which doesn't trigger a Mastery powered effect, like MM).

So if MM and BM mastery are equal for general DPS, why should 1 of them VASTLY BUFF a BASELINE (ALL SPECS INCLUSIVE) ability? That puts BM mastery ABOVE MM MASTERY, thus giving it an ADVANTAGE.

Your mastery benefits from Rapid Fire, ours does not. Your Mastery benefits from your Focus Regenerator, ours does not.

Again, my only points are as follows:
- MM/SV Need work. No question about it.
- BM Mastery working with specific abilities, talented or baseline, is not a problem. MM/SVs mastery works with a different set of abilities, that is all. In fact, out side of specialization abilities, MM/SV Mastery effects a larger chunk of the toolkit, than BM Mastery does. SV affects every source of damage, except Pet Damage and Auto Shot. MM affect every source of damage, except Traps and Pet Damage. BMs mastery effects just pet damage. Not Arcane Shot, Kill Shot, Not Multi-Shot (leaving out beast cleave as that is spec based), not Serpent Sting, Not Auto Shot, Not and Traps.

TLDR: Its fine, fix your spec without breaking mine. Blizz does a good enough job at that.
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90 Orc Hunter
14855
A terrible, clueless hunter arguing with a great player across several classes. Cool read.
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90 Orc Hunter
5035
Since I'm busy and don't want to reply/read the ENTIRE post (not that I shouldn't, you read mine, just not right now), I'll go to the meat of it.

(granted, those strengths are undertuned atm).


So you agree BM has an advantage. I was suggesting that Stampede be even across all specs because then it wouldn't have an advantage, they'd be equal. Their DPS is already equal OUTSIDE of stampede use, so if it's equal during stampede use, then all specs will actually be equal as far as general dps goes (even if BM focus replenish is still superior, that's a minor issue).


Well, in the next patch, Aimed hard casting is going to be more prevalent in PVP, due to the glyph.

Doesn't matter, Crit will still be vastly better than Haste in PvP just due to the nature of the gameplay, and you can't have both, unfortunately. If you focus on Crit Primarily and Haste secondarily, you will still get a very marginal amount of haste and won't really see a difference.

And, why is it bad awful to compare using Aimed dumping, when we are talking about total damage packages? (You are referring to a damage cooldown, i.e. Stampede).


That's the point exactly, you are saying what I'm saying, but you're drawing a different conclusion. The point is, it doesn't matter what kind of focus dump each spec has as long as the DPS rounds out to about the same. It's like comparing the use of GUNS vs BOWS, as if it matters at all. Right now all specs round out to about the same UNTIL Stampede is used, then BM sky rockets ahead, that's the issue. If Stampede is equalized, then the specs will be equalized, because that's the only DPS discrepancy.

And yes, MM tools are undertuned.


Exactly, and making Stampede equal would be a really simple fix to put it closer to par (although it still lacks the 1 min trinket utility, I think that's less of a big issue, especially since Pet Liability is sort of the trade off, especially with the BW nerf next patch).


No, I admit MM/SV need help, but you don't have to nerf BM to get it.


Ah but you see, I didn't say to nerf BM. I said make Mastery not effect it, but buff it's base level (probably to about what it is for BM hunters now, but for everyone). It's decent for BM and basically worthless for MM/SV is the problem. I want MM/SV to have it be on par with CURRENT BM Stampede power, this wouldn't nerf BM at all, just make the 5 minute cooldown equally useful for all 3 specs.


You mean like Rapid Fire? If it wasn't for the PVP Set bonus, Rapid Fire is a relatively crappy CD for BM.

Yes, in itself it is better for MM because MM requires more steady shot/aimed shot casts to function, where as BM is more instant, but you're mistaking that for some sort of ADVANTAGE, that's not an advantage for the spec, that's a Disadvantage, Rapid Fire being less useful for you is a positive thing, because you don't require attack speed to function. MM Feels pretty weak outside of Rapid Fire tbh, just because of how fast paced PvP is and how slow steady shotting is without it.

As you mentioned, we have strong Focus recovery, the only attacks we have that benefit are Cobra (and not Mastery buffed not SV) and Auto Shot (which doesn't trigger a Mastery powered effect, like MM).


Right, but this is not a disadvantage, it's an advantage, would you WANT to spam weak !@# cobra shots more often? Or do you prefer spamming real damaging attacks? :P

It's sorta like saying "Crutches are more useful for a crippled man than for a perfectly healthy man like me :( Please break my legs so I can make use of Crutches too!" - be grateful you don't need the haste from Rapid Fire to make you feel strong :P


Your mastery benefits from Rapid Fire, ours does not. Your Mastery benefits from your Focus Regenerator, ours does not.


Read above, same answer. Our Mastery is inferior to yours in PvP. Let me use another example.

Lets use arbitrary numbers to give you perspective:

BM mastery gets a rating of 10 in PvP.
MM mastery gets a rating of 7

With Rapidfire, BM Mastery remains at 10
with Rapidfire, MM Mastery goes to 9

This should be easy enough to understand, if you want, we can ask blizzard to break your legs so you can use Crutches like MM to feel useful :)

Again, my only points are as follows:
- MM/SV Need work. No question about it.


And this proves you already agree with all that I've said above, regarding rapid fire/crutch analogy.

- BM Mastery working with specific abilities, talented or baseline, is not a problem.

Yes it is, when our new baseline level 87 ability is garbage for 2 specs, that takes a lot of FUN away from the game. Every mage can use Alter Time equally, every Druid can use Symbiosis, regardless of spec it's useful, etc..

Also, it's an even bigger problem when an ENTIRE TIER OF TALENTS is complete dog poop for 2 out of 3 specs.

I could probably live with Stampede being poop, but having an entire tier of useless talents is the worst part.


TLDR: Its fine, fix your spec without breaking mine. Blizz does a good enough job at that.


Quote 1 single suggestion I've made that calls for BM nerfs. Just one, please.
Edited by Tosan on 11/11/2012 4:24 PM PST
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90 Orc Hunter
5035
Posting this again separately because I can't stand when people try to put words in my mouth.

TLDR: Its fine, fix your spec without breaking mine. Blizz does a good enough job at that.


Quote 1 single suggestion I've made that calls for BM nerfs. Just one, please.
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26 Human Mage
60
BM Mastery working with specific abilities, talented or baseline, is a problem when it affects the overall playability of other specs. Because it is good in its current state for BM does not mean SV/MM should live without their new talents and abilities. How many abilities your mastery affects does not matter. The end result matters which is currently far in BM's favor as far as our level 75 talents and Stampede goes. Making BM mastery not affect level 75 talents and Stampede, then buffing them at baseline is not nerfing BM but equalizing the abilities across all specs.

Also, you say your mastery only grants you 26% damage. Not the case when you pull that Spirit Beast out.
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90 Human Hunter
Vex
12080
The reason Stampede and the level 75 tier should scale off of RAP is because if you make them scale with BM mastery one of two things will happen. Either they are going to deal decent damage for BM but suck for the other two specs, or do decent damage for the other two specs and do far too much damage for BM and nerf its sustained damage.

It just makes everything so much more simple if they scale it off RAP. It wouldn't nerf BM at all (it could even lead to buffs to BMs sustained damage) and would give MM/SV a much needed damage boost in PvE and PvP.
Edited by Rocknrule on 11/11/2012 4:53 PM PST
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90 Human Hunter
6905
I can live without Mastery buffing Stampede in rated play. I think Stampeded is gonna be a big cc'able dot and a utility play after 5.1.

I would still like to see ArPen mixed in with MM mastery as a physical damage dealer and also to buff Aimed and Chimera. (I don't know what the percentage would be but I am guessing it would need to be minor only because GC has been swearing MM is showing balanced in their raid metrics. But MM needs more damage on Chimera and Aimed).

Tosan, I do agree with your post other than where I think it is reasonable to put the Widow debuff. And some differences where I want to see MM get a change to its mastery on top of the free autoshots.

I chose Beast Mastery this expansion as well as used Lynx Rush mostly because of how Zeherah was showing how BM mastery was scaling with it. I am just kind of leary of any further nerfs to Stampede to be honest (can we really trust them to code a mastery nerf for BM Stampede only in arena when they can't code traps for what 7 years without weird problems? Spell hit, Spell pen, now--just doesn't work at all for no reason ). I would like to see Rabid reverted and the BW to stay in its current form.

I certainly DO want mastery to work with the pet tier with maybe Stampede excepted. That's the point of BM. I don't know if Barrage procs the MM mastery but if it does other Masteries do interact with abilities (poor SV is being left out). But again another reason to add some ArPen to MM since both Powershot and Barrage seem to be weapon damage based.

I would also like to see Powershot: A) work B) have a 40-45 second cooldown C) have a slightly shorter cast time .2-.5 seconds less.

I would like to see Black Arrow be un-disspellable(or, have a penalty if it is dispelled) and also de-linked from Explosive Trap.

I think this would help SV (using Powershot and LnL as their burst) and help us get 3 specs instead of 2 or 1 back into the mix.
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100 Troll Hunter
17565
Quote 1 single suggestion I've made that calls for BM nerfs. Just one, please.

Making so Stampede doesn't get buffed by BM Mastery is a nerf to BM.

Right now all specs round out to about the same UNTIL Stampede is used, then BM sky rockets ahead, that's the issue. If Stampede is equalized, then the specs will be equalized, because that's the only DPS discrepancy.

Alternatively, you could buff MM/SV elsewhere. Those 20k Chimera crits would be a great place to give MM some buffs, without affecting BM. It also makes MM stronger outside of CDs, which is something BM lacks at.

Also, it's an even bigger problem when an ENTIRE TIER OF TALENTS is complete dog poop for 2 out of 3 specs.

This I wouldn't argue with. I like the flavor of it, but in order for the talents to not be ridiculous with BM, they kind have to suck for MM/SV. Personally, they should have had this tier emphasize the mastery effects.

i.e.:
AMoC: Birds infect the target with a damaging disease (magic damage for SV), in addition to melee attacks (BM Mastery) which also can trigger Wild Quiver (MM).

Blink Strike: Damage dealt is magic damage, affected by SV Mastery (which covers both BM/SV) and has a 100% chance to proc wild quiver (admittedly that would still be weak for MM).

Lynx Rush: Have the bleed damage be a disease (Magic damage for SV), and each tick can trigger wild quiver

Granted, they also could scrap an ability or two, and replace it with something a little more spec non-specific. Chances are, you will still have talent A better for spec A in ideal situations. But ideally, having different situations should make the talent better for all spec.

Yes it is, when our new baseline level 87 ability is garbage for 2 specs, that takes a lot of FUN away from the game. Every mage can use Alter Time equally, every Druid can use Symbiosis, regardless of spec it's useful, etc..

Every hunter can use stampede. I don't think I am being clear about my Rapid Fire analogy. Taking the baseline effect (admittedly, the set bonus does play a role), as in not specialization effects, Rapid Fire is better for some specs than others. Your comparison of BM being equal with MM/SV outside of Stampede is slightly flawed. The specs need help outside of Stampede, once you do that, can you then say BM would be equal outside of Stampede? I wouldn't think so personally.
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100 Troll Hunter
17565
BM Mastery working with specific abilities, talented or baseline, is a problem when it affects the overall playability of other specs. Because it is good in its current state for BM does not mean SV/MM should live without their new talents and abilities. How many abilities your mastery affects does not matter. The end result matters which is currently far in BM's favor as far as our level 75 talents and Stampede goes. Making BM mastery not affect level 75 talents and Stampede, then buffing them at baseline is not nerfing BM but equalizing the abilities across all specs.

Also, you say your mastery only grants you 26% damage. Not the case when you pull that Spirit Beast out.

I did forget to check that I'll admit.

But again, no I don't see it being a problem, and yes what the Mastery affects does play a role. If the specs were made equal, outside of Mastery, and then you cram Mastery on top, the balance is all out of whack, because Mastery impacts the specs differently. The approach isn't to make Mastery completely even across all specs (because then you have to deal with Haste, Crit being equal as well), but to make the total package (which includes Stampede) roughly similar.

This means, MM/SV need buffs to be brought up to BMs level. You don't lower BMs level (which is not overtly high now that the major bugs/burst problems have been fixed) to MM/SV, just to bring all 3 back up.

Especially when you consider that MM/SV have weak hits. Exp Shot ticking for minor amounts, Chimera hitting for poop, a hard casted, 3 second cast hitting less than some classes instant attacks - those are problems that need to be fixed. Not that Spec A gets more bang for the buck out out of ability A than spec BM.

Consider Multi-Shot. SV makes extremely good use out of Multi-shot, due to Specs. How does Beast Cleave compare?
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90 Human Hunter
10445
Honestly Players for Class designers would fix this game so much. Like actual high rated players who know what they are talking about and actually play the game and see what needs to be fixed.

For the good of hunter class blizzard please listen to these suggestions and do almost all of these changes.
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90 Orc Hunter
5035
11/11/2012 06:03 PMPosted by Verdash
Quote 1 single suggestion I've made that calls for BM nerfs. Just one, please.

Making so Stampede doesn't get buffed by BM Mastery is a nerf to BM.


WRONG. You're so daft it's unreal.

I said BUFF ITS BASE LEVEL POWER TO MATCH CURRENT BM POWER and THEN nerf mastery buffing it.

Meaning it would do the EXACT same damage for BM as it does now.

Ignoring the rest of your post because this makes me want to throw up and I don't think I can take anymore stupidity. I've spelled everything out so that a child could understand it, many times, and you choose to ignore it because you'd rather play dumb than admit when you're wrong.

/facepalm
Edited by Tosan on 11/11/2012 7:14 PM PST
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26 Human Mage
60
You just described exactly what is going on with BM and why it is far superior to MM/SV in PvP right now. Outside of Mastery they are the same (probably not exactly the same, but somewhat). Apply Mastery and BM is far ahead. What I am saying is that how many abilities, not what, but how many abilities Mastery affects does not matter as long as the end result is the same (damage is similar for all specs).

Again, removing mastery from level 75 talents and Stampede then buffing it at base line is not nerfing Beast Mastery. If they did it right Beast Mastery damage would stay the exact same, and MM/SV would get buffs which they need.

Lets use Tosan's example from earlier. Beast Mastery is currently a 10, Survival and Marksman are currently 7's. Stampede and level 75 talents are not affected by Mastery. BM goes down to a 7. They then buff level 75 talents and Stampede at the base. Beast Mastery is now back at 10, along with SV and MM as far as those abilities go.

It would be bad game design to just buff Chimaera Shot, Aimed Shot, Explosive Shot, Arcane Shot, and so on, essentially making level 75 talents and Stampede useless GCD's for those specs just because they are actually useful for BM. These talents and tStampede should be great tools for all specs, not just one.
Edited by Manynovas on 11/11/2012 7:16 PM PST
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