QoL Feedback & Ideas

90 Night Elf Death Knight
17450
Who:
I am no one special (no special achievements, or claims whatsoever), just someone who played as a DK since its inception in WotLK and made it my main toon.

What:
I am opening a thread to describe some ideas and feedback I have for the DK class. This is mostly to address quality of life changes such as Mobility, Survival and Talents.

Why:
I enjoyed playing the DK class over the years. There has been up and downs. Despite that, it has grown on me. However, there are definitely need to resolve the aforementioned issues.

Note:
The objective here is address QoL issues. Please provide objective feedback and ideas. Constructive criticism are welcome too. I am sure not everyone agrees with my ideas and they certainly can be polished.

I also hope that Blizzard will be reading this thread and all other similar threads and act upon them.

Feedback & Ideas

Strangulate (& Asphyxiate): With the removal of Blood Tap 1.0, this ability and Asphyxiate should have their blood rune cost removed. Is Strangulate off GCD? If not, they should be off GCD too.

Death and Decay: I personally feel that the unholy rune cost of this ability should be removed. Death and Decay has went through many changes, such as CD increase, threat drop and damage nerf. With the 30sec CD in place, Death and Decay is a controlled, non-spammable ability that can make do without the cost. The beef I have with it is that I need to sacrifice a Death Strike (barring any rune generation talents, assuming fresh start of combat) in order to use it.

Icebound Fortitude: I think many posters has stated that this defensive cooldown needs to be adjusted to provide the necessary survival for non-tanking DKs. I recommend removal of runic power cost, making it baseline 40% damage reduction for all specialisations, usable while CC-ed or silenced and non-dispellable.

Sanguine Fortitude: This passive is adjusted to work with IBF mentioned above. Adjust damage reduction of IBF to 50% for Blood Knights. In addition, refresh the duration of the Blood Shield mastery buff when IBF is activated.

Anti-magic Shell & Zone (& all defensive cooldowns): Usable while CC-ed or silenced and non-dispellable. Cost removed.

All level 90 Talents: Off GCD.

Chillblains: Baseline for Frost Knights. Talent can be replaced with another idea.

Desecration: Bring back this ability and make it baseline for Unholy Knights.

Bone Barrier: New ability for Blood Knights only. Replaces Bone Shield. You passively take 10% less damage from all sources. This is deactivated when Bone Barrier is on cooldown. Activating Bone Barrier grants a 10sec, 1 charge, non-dispellable Bone Shield buff to all party/raid members. Bone Shield reduces the next non-periodic damage source by 20% and consumes 1 charge when damage is reduced. 5min cooldown.

Soul Reaper: Change cost to 40 runic power.

Toughness: DKs need this back. Blood Knights still feel squishy. Could be a personal perception bias though.

Necrotic Strike: Change cost back to Unholy rune. Heal absorption formula needs to be buffed.

Death Siphon: Damage and healing formula need to be buffed.

Conversion: Remove the cost. Heals 3% health per second for 20 sec. This will make it competitive against Death Pact. 50% instant health or potential 60% health over time? Non-dispellable and usable while CC-ed or silenced. Same CD as Death Pact.

Death Pact: Usable while CC-ed or silenced.

Butchery: This ability can be baseline for all specialisations, whether in part or completely. I personally favoured the runic power per second portion of the ability. This will alleviate the cd gap where DKs have nothing to press.

Regarding DK Talent Tree:
I love my DK, but whenever I inspect the talent trees of other classes I would inevitably be jealous of their toolkit. Our talents feel very lackluster when compared to any other classes. This is compounded by the fact that our talents are filled with abilities that were baseline.

I felt that we didn't gain a toolkit, but lost our abilities instead. The talents definitely need a huge revamp.

New Additions:

Scourge Strike: Revert it back to shadow damage from physical damage.
Edited by Eradicus on 11/20/2012 11:53 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Death Knight
17450
BUMP
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Death Knight
17450
BUMP
Reply Quote
90 Human Death Knight
9940
Raise Dead, Death Pact and IBF usable while silenced. AMS I'm not sure about.

Strang needs the rune cost removed.

These changes would help DKs tremendously.

Our issues are with primarily silence and uncontrollable burst on us. IE warriors immune to slows and roots.

5.1 will change Warriors avatar, so we'll be able to control them more than we can today.
Same goes for hunters and their pets.

Leaving with burst from classes that can silence us like Priests and Mages. Which is where our "useable while silenced" comes in. They can blanket us currently at 50% and CC the healer for the duration of the silence to get a kill off. It's broken and obviously needs fixing.

If we receive these changes, and 5.1 hits, we can go from there.

Edit:

To clarify, you're suggesting buffs (with 5.1 nerfs) that would be pretty imbalanced imo. We're not horrible, we just can't survive because of broken mechanics. Some of which are being fixed.
Edited by Cunsumed on 11/15/2012 8:35 PM PST
Reply Quote
100 Undead Death Knight
7825
Throw in corpse explosion and i'm in
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Death Knight
17450
Raise Dead, Death Pact and IBF usable while silenced. AMS I'm not sure about.

Strang needs the rune cost removed.

These changes would help DKs tremendously.

Agreed. The issue is that DKs are treated as both melee fighters and spellcasters at the same time. The problem is that this give DKs all the weaknesses of both (Disarm & Silence) and yet no benefits.

They should simply pick the melee fighter model for DKs. It would be logical to allow all DK "spells" to be usable while silenced. This will place us back into the melee fighter type of class.

11/15/2012 08:34 PMPosted by Cunsumed
To clarify, you're suggesting buffs (with 5.1 nerfs) that would be pretty imbalanced imo. We're not horrible, we just can't survive because of broken mechanics. Some of which are being fixed.

Which "buffs" are you referring to?

11/15/2012 09:05 PMPosted by Plaguecola
Throw in corpse explosion and i'm in

Can you elaborate on this change that you are suggesting?
Reply Quote
90 Gnome Death Knight
6210
all buffs no nerfs lol.
abilities have downsides to them for a reason. If that many buffs were made lol.

well except soul reaper, no idea why you are nerfing that.

40 runic power is 2 runic dumps worth so let me give an example.

my frost strike (20 runic power) hits for on average 60k dmg. 2 of those is 120k dmg. Soul reaper hits for about 130k dmg.

but wait theres more! 2 frost strikes returns me a rune on average.

So now it's costing me 1 rune to do 10k dmg. *cough*
Edited by Aldmos on 11/21/2012 2:19 AM PST
Reply Quote
90 Human Death Knight
12620
long story short, here's why pretty much none of those changes will be implemented:

as a hero class, DK is specifically designed to be more complicated and require more awareness of things like, say, keeping a rune for strangulate when necessary

however, if there's 1 thing season 5 arena showed us, it's that allowing the reward for executing that well will just lead to a massive dominance of DK, because, well, it's really not that hard.

so, in summary: they made us more complicated with the intent of allowing greater reward for good play... then quickly realized that those high rewards would terribly imbalance play. So we get the complication part, but executing it only brings us up to "average."
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Death Knight
17450
11/21/2012 02:14 AMPosted by Aldmos
all buffs no nerfs lol.

Agreed. Nonetheless, in my opnion, they are still QoL buffs that DKs need. Note that I did not ask for damage buff or sort (Death Siphon is just bad...).

well except soul reaper, no idea why you are nerfing that.

40 runic power is 2 runic dumps worth so let me give an example.

my frost strike (20 runic power) hits for on average 60k dmg. 2 of those is 120k dmg. Soul reaper hits for about 130k dmg.

but wait theres more! 2 frost strikes returns me a rune on average.

So now it's costing me 1 rune to do 10k dmg. *cough*

The "nerf" in this case is very subjective. You may have proven your point for Frost, but what about UH and Blood? What about DKs who use different Rune recovery talent? I won't disagree to your point, but I am not completely sold either.

11/21/2012 04:41 AMPosted by Lailala
as a hero class, DK is specifically designed to be more complicated and require more awareness of things like, say, keeping a rune for strangulate when necessary

I never did like rune tetris and saving a rune for strangulate sounds suspiciously close to rune tetris. Make no mistake, rune tetris allows for greater complexity for the class, but is it really necessary? Our interrupts and defensive abilities are controlled very strictly by the CD duration. Implementing a cost simply adds another unnecessary layer of complexity.

11/21/2012 04:41 AMPosted by Lailala
however, if there's 1 thing season 5 arena showed us, it's that allowing the reward for executing that well will just lead to a massive dominance of DK, because, well, it's really not that hard.

When is Season 5? I PvP for leisure and don't see PvP by seasons. Which period of time does this coincide with?

11/21/2012 04:41 AMPosted by Lailala
so, in summary: they made us more complicated with the intent of allowing greater reward for good play... then quickly realized that those high rewards would terribly imbalance play. So we get the complication part, but executing it only brings us up to "average."

Then it is a sad state isn't it? Putting in effort and playing the best you can, only receive 'average' returns. This sends the message that DKs are underwhelming and indirectly makes us big targets in PvP.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Death Knight
17450
BUMP
Reply Quote
90 Human Death Knight
11640
Giving feedback on the OP, warning: long post with a lot of white bold text from me, itallics is OP.

Feedback & Ideas

Strangulate (& Asphyxiate): With the removal of Blood Tap 1.0, this ability and Asphyxiate should have their blood rune cost removed. Is Strangulate off GCD? If not, they should be off GCD too.
Agreed.

Death and Decay: <snip>
Would make it mandatory for Unholy to use it on cooldown, however I enjoyed that aspect of it in 4.3, agreed. D&D's graphic was one of the things that really got me interested in DKs all them years ago.

Icebound Fortitude: <snip>
Agreed, PvP DKs are in dire need of a cooldown that makes people switch off the DK instead of just tunneling into them knowing they can't do anything about it if AMS is down. Wouldn't say it should be usable while under all CC though, breaking stuns is fine, just needs to cost nothing and be usable while silenced.

Sanguine Fortitude: This passive is adjusted to work with IBF mentioned above. Adjust damage reduction of IBF to 50% for Blood Knights. In addition, refresh the duration of the Blood Shield mastery buff when IBF is activated.
Not sure about blood shield mastery, if you're getting hit enough that you need to IBF, likely chance you don't have a blood shield anyway.

Anti-magic Shell & Zone (& all defensive cooldowns): Usable while CC-ed or silenced and non-dispellable. Cost removed.
AMZ not usable while cc'd makes sense as it's a spell with a target circle, they don't cost anything anyway. Lichborne however shouldn't be able to be silenced and the heals from DC should be buffed. (11k pvp power and it heals for 45k as unholy and is bugged and cancels the ability to heal if you do anything but DC? lame)

All level 90 Talents: Off GCD. AGREED. The amount of times I haven't been able to stun in challenge modes due to GCD, or not being able to Desc ground something due to being on GCD is stupid.

Chillblains: Baseline for Frost Knights. Talent can be replaced with another idea.
Not entirely sure about this, could make running chillblains and DA unstoppable. Would rather DA just remove roots and slows and have chillblains' effect last as long as Frost Fever does and refreshes the slow every tick, currently it's falling off before you can even get in range of some classes if you need the runes.

Desecration: Bring back this ability and make it baseline for Unholy Knights. Agreed, the passive control that came from Desecration made up for the general lack of CC that DKs have.

Bone Barrier: New ability for Blood Knights only. Replaces Bone Shield. You passively take 10% less damage from all sources. This is deactivated when Bone Barrier is on cooldown. Activating Bone Barrier grants a 10sec, 1 charge, non-dispellable Bone Shield buff to all party/raid members. Bone Shield reduces the next non-periodic damage source by 20% and consumes 1 charge when damage is reduced. 5min cooldown.
Nice idea, the lack of a raid cooldown from DKs hurts some raids.

Soul Reaper: Change cost to 40 runic power.
NO, we discussed this for months on the beta, a RP cost would be horrible to manage, MUCH easier to manage a single unholy/frost/blood rune, especially specced into blood tap.

Toughness: DKs need this back. Blood Knights still feel squishy. Could be a personal perception bias though. The extra armor got rolled into Blood Presence baseline.

Necrotic Strike: Change cost back to Unholy rune. Heal absorption formula needs to be buffed. If this was on an unholy rune, the heal absorb wouldn't need to be buffed at all.

Death Siphon: Damage and healing formula need to be buffed. This was said from early beta, the spell has been horrible since it's inception.

Conversion: <snip> I saw a much better solution on the beta forums a while ago.
Conversion
Converts up to 90 Runic Power into a Heal over Time effect on the Death Knight healing for(3% per 3s? Sort of like Recuperate.) lasting 1 second per 3 Runic Power consumed, up to a maximum of 30s.
It'll heal more than Death pact, assuming 100% uptime, however you're sacrificing a lot of RP for it, but not gimping your damage while it's active. Meanwhile Death pact is your instant burst heal.

Death Pact: Usable while CC-ed or silenced. Should be usable while silenced, definitely.

Butchery: <snip>
Honestly at high enough haste and playing properly in PvE, there really isn't that much downtime. I liked the RP on kill however.
Edited by Rivendare on 11/25/2012 9:50 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Death Knight
17450
@Rivendare, thank you for the constructive feedback. Just want to address some points. Keep the ideas flowing!

Death and Decay: <snip>
Would make it mandatory for Unholy to use it on cooldown, however I enjoyed that aspect of it in 4.3, agreed. D&D's graphic was one of the things that really got me interested in DKs all them years ago.

I play Blood heavily and the DPS in my runs are really impatient. If I throw a D&D off the start, I will lose a Death Strike. It just kinda irks me. The increase to the CD just adds fuel to fire. Hence, I proposed for the cost to be removed. IIRC, UH does use D&D every CD, unless this has changed in MoP.

Sanguine Fortitude: This passive is adjusted to work with IBF mentioned above. Adjust damage reduction of IBF to 50% for Blood Knights. In addition, refresh the duration of the Blood Shield mastery buff when IBF is activated.
Not sure about blood shield mastery, if you're getting hit enough that you need to IBF, likely chance you don't have a blood shield anyway.

I agree to what you are saying. The Blood Shield refreshment is just a caveat.

Anti-magic Shell & Zone (& all defensive cooldowns): Usable while CC-ed or silenced and non-dispellable. Cost removed.
AMZ not usable while cc'd makes sense as it's a spell with a target circle, they don't cost anything anyway. Lichborne however shouldn't be able to be silenced and the heals from DC should be buffed. (11k pvp power and it heals for 45k as unholy and is bugged and cancels the ability to heal if you do anything but DC? lame)

I hear you there. Again, your point with AMZ is valid. Lichborne should be turned into a stance/shapeshift. That would be quite cool. Addition of a CD to it would balance it.

Chillblains: Baseline for Frost Knights. Talent can be replaced with another idea.
Not entirely sure about this, could make running chillblains and DA unstoppable. Would rather DA just remove roots and slows and have chillblains' effect last as long as Frost Fever does and refreshes the slow every tick, currently it's falling off before you can even get in range of some classes if you need the runes.

Again, I hear you on this. The current DA is simply so versatile that it feels odd to be in this talent tier.

Soul Reaper: Change cost to 40 runic power.
NO, we discussed this for months on the beta, a RP cost would be horrible to manage, MUCH easier to manage a single unholy/frost/blood rune, especially specced into blood tap.

Unfortunately, this is where I disagree with you. Personally, I hate Soul Reaper on a rune cost, no matter what rune. I would have actually preferred it to be free (I am thinking of Hunter's Kill Shot), but that would have been too powerful at its current CD. I also personally do not see why it is horrible to manage on rp cost. If anything, a rp cost would actually be much easier to manage (no rune tetris, no rune talent consideration).

Toughness: DKs need this back. Blood Knights still feel squishy. Could be a personal perception bias though. The extra armor got rolled into Blood Presence baseline.

I know. I still think we need this on top of the armour buff to Blood Presence.

Necrotic Strike: Change cost back to Unholy rune. Heal absorption formula needs to be buffed. If this was on an unholy rune, the heal absorb wouldn't need to be buffed at all.

Good Point. I agree.

Death Siphon: Damage and healing formula need to be buffed. This was said from early beta, the spell has been horrible since it's inception.

All the more for developers to change this asap.

Conversion: <snip> I saw a much better solution on the beta forums a while ago.
Conversion
Converts up to 90 Runic Power into a Heal over Time effect on the Death Knight healing for(3% per 3s? Sort of like Recuperate.) lasting 1 second per 3 Runic Power consumed, up to a maximum of 30s.
It'll heal more than Death pact, assuming 100% uptime, however you're sacrificing a lot of RP for it, but not gimping your damage while it's active. Meanwhile Death pact is your instant burst heal.

I responded to this on your own thread.
Reply Quote
90 Human Death Knight
11640
I play Blood heavily and the DPS in my runs are really impatient. If I throw a D&D off the start, I will lose a Death Strike. It just kinda irks me. The increase to the CD just adds fuel to fire. Hence, I proposed for the cost to be removed. IIRC, UH does use D&D every CD, unless this has changed in MoP.


I agree, i've noticed our Blood DK tank in challenge modes gets pretty annoyed that he can't death strike and D&D for agro at the same time :P
Not for single target, it does slightly less damage than a scourge strike now.

11/26/2012 12:49 AMPosted by Eradicus
I agree to what you are saying. The Blood Shield refreshment is just a caveat.

I suppose, doesn't make a huge amount of sense, fits with the Sanguine Fort name though, however they could roll blood worms into sanguine fort's tooltip.

11/26/2012 12:49 AMPosted by Eradicus
hear you there. Again, your point with AMZ is valid. Lichborne should be turned into a stance/shapeshift. That would be quite cool. Addition of a CD to it would balance it.

Mmmm maybe, as long as it can't be silenced (not even sure if it can) it would be fine as it is.

Unfortunately, this is where I disagree with you. Personally, I hate Soul Reaper on a rune cost, no matter what rune. I would have actually preferred it to be free (I am thinking of Hunter's Kill Shot), but that would have been too powerful at its current CD. I also personally do not see why it is horrible to manage on rp cost. If anything, a rp cost would actually be much easier to manage (no rune tetris, no rune talent consideration).


Nooooot reaaally. I think we all would prefer it on no cost, but even then I haven't found it particularly hard to manage, you shouldn't be worrying about it as blood unless you really need the damage, and you usually have 2 blood runes anyway. Unholy, once you get used to Blood Tap it's no problem at all. Frost probably has it the worst, but even then it's not delayed by very long, however if it costed RP it would be really annoying to balance with frost strike/death coils and it would have to proc the lvl 75 talent or else you'd run out of runes to generate RP to keep using it.

11/26/2012 12:49 AMPosted by Eradicus
I know. I still think we need this on top of the armour buff to Blood Presence.

Debatable, once we get more gear later in the xpac we'll have more mastery anyway and larger blood shields against melee attacks.

11/26/2012 12:49 AMPosted by Eradicus
I responded to this on your own thread.
Cheers :)
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Death Knight
17450
11/26/2012 02:02 AMPosted by Rivendare
Nooooot reaaally. I think we all would prefer it on no cost, but even then I haven't found it particularly hard to manage, you shouldn't be worrying about it as blood unless you really need the damage, and you usually have 2 blood runes anyway. Unholy, once you get used to Blood Tap it's no problem at all. Frost probably has it the worst, but even then it's not delayed by very long, however if it costed RP it would be really annoying to balance with frost strike/death coils and it would have to proc the lvl 75 talent or else you'd run out of runes to generate RP to keep using it.

The current version of Soul Reaper is easily incorporated for Blood and UH Knights. It boils down to the ability not favouring all specs equally. By turning the cost to rp, it somehow equalises the differences between specs.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Death Knight
17450
New Glyph Ideas:

Glyph of Blood Parasite: Instead of spawning Bloodworms as a minion, a Blood Parasite debuff is applied to current enemy target.

Glyph of Icy Strike: Replaces Icy Touch with Icy Strike. Icy Strike does 100% weapon damage plus 466 as frost damage and infects the target with Frost Fever, a disease that deals periodic frost damage over 30 sec.
Reply Quote
55 Goblin Death Knight
4705
Glyph of Icy Strike: Replaces Icy Touch with Icy Strike. Icy Strike does 100% weapon damage plus 466 as frost damage and infects the target with Frost Fever, a disease that deals periodic frost damage over 30 sec.


So, what's the point in this glyphs exactly?
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Death Knight
17450
11/29/2012 07:06 PMPosted by Jäckßäuer
Glyph of Icy Strike: Replaces Icy Touch with Icy Strike. Icy Strike does 100% weapon damage plus 466 as frost damage and infects the target with Frost Fever, a disease that deals periodic frost damage over 30 sec.


So, what's the point in this glyphs exactly?

This is a situational glyph. Icy strike cannot be silenced as it is a melee attack. You lose the range of Icy Touch for it though.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Death Knight
17450
BUMP
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Death Knight
17450
BUMP
Reply Quote
90 Tauren Death Knight
9720
-Agree with Strangulate/Asphyxiate.
-Partially agree with DnD, but then you'd have to nerf Unholy minutely, as it would be a DPS boost for them. Also, I would like the idea that DnD is an AoE that emanates from you, as you are spreading death and decay.
-Sanguine Fortitude... hm, if it went your way, then it'd be a nerf to Blood DKs as other tanks have 50%, unless you compensated for this with a decreased cooldown. (no clue what you mean by refreshing the duration of Blood Shield mastery)
-AMS/AMS, no comment.
-Chillbains/Desecration, also no comment.
-Bone Barrier seems interesting, but then again, think of the CD in terms of other classes. Also, it is deactivated when Bone Barrier is on CD, meaning you use it, and you go 5 minutes of no 10% damage reduction? Not sure about that, but I do like giving Bloods a raid CD, although I enjoyed the T13 4p bonus of raid wide VB.
-Ah Soul Reaper, yes, I feel it to be quite clunky, and changing it to a RP cost may be better or worse, depending on the person's play style. I'd prefer it to have a shorter proc time, like 3(or 4) seconds?
-No idea what you mean by Toughness, haven't played a DK that long D:
-Necro Strike, no comment.
-Death Siphon, buff it slightly, or make it pass through absorption effects, or make it do constant damage regardless of PvP Resil.
-Conversion looks, well, I like it as then both DP and Conversion would have their niches in a fight. Altering the % and time to find a nice amount(4% for 15s, 5% for 12s, make the total gain be a max of 60%).
-Partially agree with DP being used while CC'd or silenced.
-Butchery, hm, for the most part(I tank mostly too btw) I am either sitting on runes waiting for an inevitable mega blow, or constantly doing something. I don't feel(imo) that I have any CD gaps where there is nothing to press.
-Blood Parasite? So a Blood Worm in your target that explodes for a healing AoE? Confused on this one.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]