QoL Feedback & Ideas

90 Night Elf Death Knight
6600
I'm gonna do what Rivendare did. My opinions will be stated in bold.

Strangulate (& Asphyxiate):I disagree that the cost should be removed, but I do agree that it should be off the GCD and its CD should be lowered to 90sec.

Death and Decay: I disagree with you here. Any buffs to D&D would make it OP in PvE.


Icebound Fortitude: Agreed that this needs a MASSIVE buff. Cost should be removed, but leave it at 20% and lower the cooldown to a minute.

Sanguine Fortitude: This should be a glyph. Increases the damage reduction to 50% and restores the cooldown to 3 min.

Anti-magic Shell & Zone (& all defensive cooldowns): Do these have a cost currently? Disagree that this should be used while CC'd or silenced.

Necrotic Strike: Change cost back to Unholy rune. Heal absorption formula needs to be buffed. Agreed

Death Siphon: Damage and healing formula need to be buffed. Totally agree here. Currently, Death Pact is the only talent this tier worth taking.

Conversion: Removing the cost is the wrong approach. I see it as a way to spend all that excess runic power we don't need. I would instead suggest buffing the amount of healing it does.

Death Pact: Usable while CC-ed or silenced. Silenced yes, CC'd no.


One thing I would like to see that wasn't mentioned was Bone Sheild should be made baseline for all DK specs.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
Zen
11380
Hrm... this looks like yet another one of those threads in which someone proposes a whole slew of "Quality of Life" fixes to the DK class without taking into consideration the overall balance of the game and how certain mechanics function, and without proposing any reciprocal downsides to all the buffs. This isn't to say that there aren't some good points in here (suggestions for IBF for example), but the fact that "usable while CCed or silenced" is included in so many of these suggestions makes it hard to take this thread seriously. Primaily, this is due to the fact that if we are to take this thread seriously, we would need to consider all of the other classes who have abilities that they would like to see as being usable while CCed or silenced.

Oh, and last I heard... Blizzard doesn't read class forums. This thread may be better placed in one of the forums they do read for feedback from the community.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
17450
12/05/2012 02:18 AMPosted by Deffknight
-Partially agree with DnD, but then you'd have to nerf Unholy minutely, as it would be a DPS boost for them. Also, I would like the idea that DnD is an AoE that emanates from you, as you are spreading death and decay.

By making it free, it's a DPS boost for all specs actually. It favours UH Knights more due to mastery.

12/05/2012 02:18 AMPosted by Deffknight
-Sanguine Fortitude... hm, if it went your way, then it'd be a nerf to Blood DKs as other tanks have 50%, unless you compensated for this with a decreased cooldown. (no clue what you mean by refreshing the duration of Blood Shield mastery)

This is a Blood Knight passive where it boost IBF to 50%. It does what you wrote. Blood Mastery allows Death Strike to generate a Blood Shield that last 10sec. This is the Blood Shield duration refresh I am talking about.

12/05/2012 02:18 AMPosted by Deffknight
-Bone Barrier seems interesting, but then again, think of the CD in terms of other classes. Also, it is deactivated when Bone Barrier is on CD, meaning you use it, and you go 5 minutes of no 10% damage reduction? Not sure about that, but I do like giving Bloods a raid CD, although I enjoyed the T13 4p bonus of raid wide VB.

By planning the ability this way, Blood Knights are forced to make a choice, be selfish and have passive 10% Damage Reduction or help the raid survive a big incoming hit.

12/05/2012 02:18 AMPosted by Deffknight
-Ah Soul Reaper, yes, I feel it to be quite clunky, and changing it to a RP cost may be better or worse, depending on the person's play style. I'd prefer it to have a shorter proc time, like 3(or 4) seconds?

I would rather they implement it as a simple instant execute.

12/05/2012 02:18 AMPosted by Deffknight
-Blood Parasite? So a Blood Worm in your target that explodes for a healing AoE? Confused on this one.

I assume you meant the glyph idea? It simply turns the Blood Worm into a debuff instead of a minion.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
17450
Strangulate (& Asphyxiate):I disagree that the cost should be removed, but I do agree that it should be off the GCD and its CD should be lowered to 90sec.

When spending a rune on a non-DPS ability is essentially a DPS loss, removal of the cost will not only prevent that loss, but also removes the need to re-adjust the DPS of other moves in order to compensate.

Death and Decay: I disagree with you here. Any buffs to D&D would make it OP in PvE.

Why is it overpowered? A DPS boost? Yes. OP? Definitely not.

Icebound Fortitude: Agreed that this needs a MASSIVE buff. Cost should be removed, but leave it at 20% and lower the cooldown to a minute.

I highly doubt they will drop the CD to 1min. This will render the glyph useless. They should just copy the warlock's Unending Resolve (3min CD, 40% damage reduction and immunity to silence for 8sec) or emulate it to a degree.

Sanguine Fortitude: This should be a glyph. Increases the damage reduction to 50% and restores the cooldown to 3 min.

This is a Blood Knight only passive. Why a glyph? /confused

Anti-magic Shell & Zone (& all defensive cooldowns): Do these have a cost currently? Disagree that this should be used while CC'd or silenced.

Death Pact: Usable while CC-ed or silenced. Silenced yes, CC'd no.

12/05/2012 09:43 AMPosted by Sidratha
but the fact that "usable while CCed or silenced" is included in so many of these suggestions makes it hard to take this thread seriously.

I see your point. I suggested "usable while CC-ed" due to the fact that DKs do not have any real gap-openers, peel-offs or thorns type abilities. By making these abilities usable while CC-ed, opponents hitting us will be inclined to switch to other targets when they suddenly see shields coming up or self-heals incoming. It's easier to edit something than to come up with another new move.

Conversion: Removing the cost is the wrong approach. I see it as a way to spend all that excess runic power we don't need. I would instead suggest buffing the amount of healing it does.

I don't think there is such thing as "excess runic power that we don't need". If you are in a situation where you are forced to click on Conversion, then you need that runic power to kill whatever is hitting you. Instead I see DP as "instant" heal and Conversion as a self-HoT. The HoT should definitely be bigger than the "instant payout" heal. Kinda like winning the lottery and choosing between immediate payout or cashing it via installments.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
17450
@Sidratha, thank you for taking the time to reply in this thread.

12/05/2012 09:43 AMPosted by Sidratha
Hrm... this looks like yet another one of those threads in which someone proposes a whole slew of "Quality of Life" fixes to the DK class without taking into consideration the overall balance of the game and how certain mechanics function, and without proposing any reciprocal downsides to all the buffs.

I agree this thread is one of those [insert arbitrarily large number] threads about improving DKs. That said, this is a thread and it is for discussion. You are welcome to propose changes to the fixes I suggested if you feel that they are unnecessary or OP/UP.

Can you elaborate on the "without taking into consideration the overall balance of the game and how certain mechanics function" part? Your statement is far too generic and ambiguous. I am not sure how to respond to that.

12/05/2012 09:43 AMPosted by Sidratha
but the fact that "usable while CCed or silenced" is included in so many of these suggestions makes it hard to take this thread seriously.

I addressed this in the above post.

12/05/2012 09:43 AMPosted by Sidratha
Primaily, this is due to the fact that if we are to take this thread seriously, we would need to consider all of the other classes who have abilities that they would like to see as being usable while CCed or silenced.

Please elaborate. What classes? Which abilities?

Oh, and last I heard... Blizzard doesn't read class forums. This thread may be better placed in one of the forums they do read for feedback from the community.

/sigh
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
Zen
11380
12/05/2012 06:49 PMPosted by Eradicus
Can you elaborate on the "without taking into consideration the overall balance of the game and how certain mechanics function" part? Your statement is far too generic and ambiguous. I am not sure how to respond to that.


Sure. Let me use silence as an example to elaborate on. Silence, as I understand it to work, affects any ability or spell that requires your character to make sound to cast or use it. To change the toolkit of one class such that a number of abilities and spells are no longer affected by silence creates an imbalance in terms of the game's overall mechanics. For example, while it would generally be foolish to waste a silence on a Warrior, you can silence them and prevent them from using any of their shouts as well as thunderclap as both are considered as spells. A somewhat weak example perhaps, given the state of Warriors presently, but I hope it gets my point across that suggested changes to spells and abilities need to take into account overall game mechanics and how they impact other classes.

And my apologies if I come across as cynical or dismissive. I've just seen so many of these types of posts and so often the suggested changes aren't aimed at addressing an issue with the class so much as hoping to make DKs seriously overpowered.
Edited by Sidratha on 12/6/2012 8:32 AM PST
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
6600
12/05/2012 06:42 PMPosted by Eradicus
When spending a rune on a non-DPS ability is essentially a DPS loss, removal of the cost will not only prevent that loss, but also removes the need to re-adjust the DPS of other moves in order to compensate.


PvP is a game of tactics and strategy, knowing when to use an ability at the right time and knowing the cost of using that ability. If Strangulates cooldown is reduced (which it should be) and its cost is removed, it would be too easy to spam all day every day. Besides, we already have a free Brain Freeze. Two free interupts is too good, even regarding our current state. In addition, part of Asphyxiate's charm is the free cost and the reduced CD. Make that a part of Strangulate, and Asphyxiate is no longer worth taking.

Why is it overpowered? A DPS boost? Yes. OP? Definitely not.


Maybe I was a bit too hasty in this remark. Looking back, yes, the cost should be removed OR the cooldown shortened. Right now, I think its damage is fine.

12/05/2012 06:42 PMPosted by Eradicus
I highly doubt they will drop the CD to 1min. This will render the glyph useless. They should just copy the warlock's Unending Resolve (3min CD, 40% damage reduction and immunity to silence for 8sec) or emulate it to a degree.


No, the glyph will then reduce the cooldown to 30 sec and the duration to 4 sec, meaning IBF. The glyph is meant to turn IBF into an emergency button, which it will still do, it will just be used more frequently. Besides, look at the druid's barkskin. Same duration, same reduction, no cost, 1min cooldown, usable while CC'd, and ferals still have Survival Instincts in their back pocket. As our only Physical damage reduction, IBF should be similar in its duration, cooldown, and being cost free, but different in that it prevents stuns but can't be used while stunned.

12/05/2012 06:42 PMPosted by Eradicus
This is a Blood Knight only passive. Why a glyph? /confused


I'm sorry, I should have been more clear. This should be a glyph ONLY IF IBF's cooldown is indeed reduced to 1 min. This way, if Blood DK's still want the larger damage reduction on a longer cooldown, they have that option. If glyph of IBF is trivialized because of the cooldown reduction, this glyph would take its place.

12/05/2012 06:42 PMPosted by Eradicus
I don't think there is such thing as "excess runic power that we don't need". If you are in a situation where you are forced to click on Conversion, then you need that runic power to kill whatever is hitting you.


Not Necessarily. There will inevitably be times where a lull in the action causes all your runes to come off CD while your RP is nearly capped. In these situations, you would like a way to spend that RP without wasting you tier 5 talent. The way I see Conversion is a DK version of the old Frenzied Regeneration, a way to burn excess resources for some extra health. Again, PvP is a game of tactics, so you should be able to choose between some extra dps or some extra healing.

Also, you didn't respond to my earlier suggestion, so I'll say it again: Bone Shield should be baseline for all specs, as an extra method of damage reduction. It should also reduce the duration of Disarm OR silence effects, not both. It should also cost a Blood rune to compensate.

Lastly, I have this idea for a new ability. It might be too powerful to be anything other than a talent, so let me know what you guys think:

Indomitable

At least 30 Runic Power (up to a maximum of 100)

5 min Cooldown


You consume all stored Runic Power, becoming an unstoppable force for 10 sec. While active, you are immune to movement impairing effects, effects which cause loss of control of your character, and physical damage taken is reduced by 30%. Lasts an additional 2 sec for every 10 runic power beyond 30 consumed. This ability cannot be activated while Icebound Fortitude or Anti-Magic Shell are active. Cannot activate Icebound Fortitude or Anti-Magic Shell while this is active.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
17450
12/06/2012 08:30 AMPosted by Sidratha
Can you elaborate on the "without taking into consideration the overall balance of the game and how certain mechanics function" part? Your statement is far too generic and ambiguous. I am not sure how to respond to that.


Sure. Let me use silence as an example to elaborate on. Silence, as I understand it to work, affects any ability or spell that requires your character to make sound to cast or use it. To change the toolkit of one class such that a number of abilities and spells are no longer affected by silence creates an imbalance in terms of the game's overall mechanics. For example, while it would generally be foolish to waste a silence on a Warrior, you can silence them and prevent them from using any of their shouts as well as thunderclap as both are considered as spells. A somewhat weak example perhaps, given the state of Warriors presently, but I hope it gets my point across that suggested changes to spells and abilities need to take into account overall game mechanics and how they impact other classes.

And my apologies if I come across as cynical or dismissive. I've just seen so many of these types of posts and so often the suggested changes aren't aimed at addressing an issue with the class so much as hoping to make DKs seriously overpowered.

Apologies accepted. Water under the bridge.

The reason I am pushing for "usable while silenced" model is so that, ironically, we can resemble and take on the melee model (like rogues and warriors) as opposed to the spellcaster model (mages etc). As stated before, we are in both melee and caster territories, yet we gain no general benefits only weaknesses of both. My personal opinion is to push DKs into 1 or the other.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
17450
12/06/2012 08:34 AMPosted by Karaahl
PvP is a game of tactics and strategy, knowing when to use an ability at the right time and knowing the cost of using that ability. If Strangulates cooldown is reduced (which it should be) and its cost is removed, it would be too easy to spam all day every day. Besides, we already have a free Brain Freeze. Two free interupts is too good, even regarding our current state. In addition, part of Asphyxiate's charm is the free cost and the reduced CD. Make that a part of Strangulate, and Asphyxiate is no longer worth taking.

Actually, I proposed to remove the cost, but not decrease the CD. The CD is meant for DKs to make the important decision whether to burn it or not. Two free and short-CD interrupts are too good. With its current CD, it prevents abuse and chain-spamming. Asphyxiate reduces the CD and gives a stun component, hence it is still very relevant. I never meant to undermine Asphyxiate.

12/06/2012 08:34 AMPosted by Karaahl
No, the glyph will then reduce the cooldown to 30 sec and the duration to 4 sec, meaning IBF. The glyph is meant to turn IBF into an emergency button, which it will still do, it will just be used more frequently. Besides, look at the druid's barkskin. Same duration, same reduction, no cost, 1min cooldown, usable while CC'd, and ferals still have Survival Instincts in their back pocket. As our only Physical damage reduction, IBF should be similar in its duration, cooldown, and being cost free, but different in that it prevents stuns but can't be used while stunned.

You raise a very good point. I totally forgot about Barkskin! Yep, let IBF emulate Barkskin then. Though, I find the glyph redundant. Having the Glyph to allow IBF drop from 1min to 30sec seems far too OP even with the reduction of the duration from 12sec to 4sec. I can see myself spamming IBF all the time... /think Madness of Deathwing

12/06/2012 08:34 AMPosted by Karaahl
I'm sorry, I should have been more clear. This should be a glyph ONLY IF IBF's cooldown is indeed reduced to 1 min. This way, if Blood DK's still want the larger damage reduction on a longer cooldown, they have that option. If glyph of IBF is trivialized because of the cooldown reduction, this glyph would take its place.

I am abit confused by what you wrote: So there will be a Glyph of XXX Fortitude - Your IBF grants 50% damage reduction but the CD is increased to 2min or 3min?

12/06/2012 08:34 AMPosted by Karaahl
Not Necessarily. There will inevitably be times where a lull in the action causes all your runes to come off CD while your RP is nearly capped. In these situations, you would like a way to spend that RP without wasting you tier 5 talent. The way I see Conversion is a DK version of the old Frenzied Regeneration, a way to burn excess resources for some extra health. Again, PvP is a game of tactics, so you should be able to choose between some extra dps or some extra healing.

I was also thinking of Frenzied Regeneration when I saw Conversion. However rage and rp are generated in such a different way that it is very hard to make a similar comparison. The situation where I find myself with full runes and rp, yet waiting for something to happen is rare and few (I usually death coil the enemy if I cannot reach it via melee anyway). Nonetheless, I see your point and shall remain open to your suggestion.

12/06/2012 08:34 AMPosted by Karaahl
Also, you didn't respond to my earlier suggestion, so I'll say it again: Bone Shield should be baseline for all specs, as an extra method of damage reduction. It should also reduce the duration of Disarm OR silence effects, not both. It should also cost a Blood rune to compensate.

On one hand I empathise that DKs need more damage reduction CDs and making Bone Shield baseline seem like an easily achieved solution, yet on the other hand, I actually wish for Bone Shield to be spec-unique so that I have something to look forward to. I certainly do not mind if Bone Shield becomes baseline.

Lastly, I have this idea for a new ability. It might be too powerful to be anything other than a talent, so let me know what you guys think:

Indomitable

At least 30 Runic Power (up to a maximum of 100)

5 min Cooldown

You consume all stored Runic Power, becoming an unstoppable force for 10 sec. While active, you are immune to movement impairing effects, effects which cause loss of control of your character, and physical damage taken is reduced by 30%. Lasts an additional 2 sec for every 10 runic power beyond 30 consumed. This ability cannot be activated while Icebound Fortitude or Anti-Magic Shell are active. Cannot activate Icebound Fortitude or Anti-Magic Shell while this is active.

I see myself combo-ing this with AMS (Burn AMS, collect rp, burn this). Doing this will make this avatar-like ability very powerful (maybe to the point of OP). Instead, can I suggest that this ability shares CD with AMS? Activating AMS puts this ability on a 45sec CD (as per AMS). How about renaming this ability as "Momento Mori"? :)
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