Water Jet

100 Night Elf Druid
13410
Why was this spell removed from the PTR? It was a nice, elegant solution to the weirdness of having to place a freeze reticle on single target bosses for the FoF proc. It provided a minor buff to frost single target dps, but since frost is well behind fire on pretty much every fight this doesn't seem to present an issue. Also, since freeze is preferable in PvP, it doesn't seem to affect PvP balance either.
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MVP
90 Human Mage
10015
I don't think we've seen the last of it. Delayed is more likely than scrapped, I'd say.
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100 Worgen Mage
19135
11/14/2012 01:14 PMPosted by Lhivera
I don't think we've seen the last of it. Delayed is more likely than scrapped, I'd say.


With this last build being a release build, it feels like they're short on time to make any changes to the level 90 talents either. It'll have to wait for 5.2 I suppose, 4-6 months down the line. Something tells me 5.2 won't come before May since Heart of the Swarm comes in March. Which would make sense since this is a huge 16 boss tier, and progression for most guilds is difficult just based on the lack of time alone. Still going to have a monthly % nerf for this tier too.

I really hope we get another balancing patch before T15 though. I felt like too much got lumped in with this 5.1 patch, and we could have received some of this stuff earlier (ie: the Cinder Kitten Charity Drive and the double reputation change). I'd like to see patches every couple of months if possible. So here's hoping 5.2 isn't T15, which would mean we could get some more tweaks before then. 5.1 ended up being a PVP balancing patch for Mages, but we did get some Arcane love at the end there. I am really happy that Pyro change didn't go live.

As for Water Jet itself, I provided my thoughts on awhile back. It really didn't have much use outside of niche situations. Sure, it was nice to get rid of the targetting reticule, but the pet nova would end up doing more DPS with shatter combos and providing more control in just about every situation except stand-still boss fights, and even then you're dealing with a potential no gain or even DPS loss depending on rotational collision and procs wasted. It would have been poor QoL all things considered.
Edited by Digerati on 11/14/2012 3:03 PM PST
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100 Undead Mage
15155
The timing seems to suggest it just had to be delayed, yeah. I hope that's the case anyway and not that they just scrapped it for some reason we're not privy to. Maybe GC will comment on it on his twitter if we're lucky.
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MVP
90 Human Mage
10015
I don't really see single-target DPS as a "niche situation." In any single-target situation, Water Jet was superior to Freeze if executed correctly (which, with a little practice, wasn't too hard).

With two targets, Freeze was superior because there was no issue of the procs coming from Frostbolts that may have generated natural charges. But against a single-target, timing the jet cast (which, even if you wasted an entire Waterbolt windup, was still a gain in pet damage) felt much, much more natural to me than using Freeze.

The only improvement I might have suggested would have been, instead of generating FOF charges, simply count the target as frozen while Water Jet ticks. This would have granted more of a sense of immediacy to the combo, perhaps.
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100 Worgen Mage
19135
I was referring to Shatter combos providing a bigger DPS gain, which is just about everywhere except boss mobs. That's what I meant by niche. PVE is still a big deal obviously. But even then, many boss fights have adds you can get 2 charges of FoF or even Shatter with. You can get 2 charges off of every fight in MV. Will of the Emperor is the fight where Frost gets to shine and a well-timed pet nova with a Frost Bomb explosion is superior.

Still, new spells are cool, and if it finds niche use or fits some playstyles, I'm not one to question the best use of development time. Rather have choice than no choice.

"The only improvement I might have suggested would have been, instead of generating FOF charges, simply count the target as frozen while Water Jet ticks. This would have granted more of a sense of immediacy to the combo, perhaps."

That would have been better. Perhaps a root of sorts still too for control.
Edited by Digerati on 11/14/2012 8:40 PM PST
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Community Manager
11/14/2012 01:14 PMPosted by Lhivera
I don't think we've seen the last of it. Delayed is more likely than scrapped, I'd say.


I think that's a fair assessment. We weren't happy with how this spell was working out on the PTR, and pulled it for now. We're looking into giving it some more polish, and possibly implementing it when the time is right.
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100 Undead Mage
15155
Thanks for the clarification. Well, here's looking forward to the newer, better version.
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90 Human Mage
7860
could u also perhaps comment on the spellsteal nerf? I understand that spellsteal needed to be reigned in but 21% is incredibly punishing. The only reason we even spam ss is because we can't get the spell we want. For instance Hand of Freedom is piled under several buffs and hots. I have to ss 6-8 times before I get the freedom sometimes. With the nerf I'll be oom the 5th time.

you guys mentioned strategic ss but given the way ss works it isn't possible to use it strategically unless that crucial buff you need to remove is the only one there. And when does that ever happen?
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90 Gnome Mage
8975
11/14/2012 05:24 PMPosted by Daxxarri
I don't think we've seen the last of it. Delayed is more likely than scrapped, I'd say.


I think that's a fair assessment. We weren't happy with how this spell was working out on the PTR, and pulled it for now. We're looking into giving it some more polish, and possibly implementing it when the time is right.


Daxxarri, is there any possibility for you to say what Blizzard is going to do with level 90 talents?

Are you guys leaving them just how they are or are you actually going to tweak them sometime in the future?

This is the only information we need to decide if we're going to reroll or simply wait for the tweak.
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60 Undead Rogue
8075
11/14/2012 06:46 PMPosted by Phöbös


I think that's a fair assessment. We weren't happy with how this spell was working out on the PTR, and pulled it for now. We're looking into giving it some more polish, and possibly implementing it when the time is right.


Daxxarri, is there any possibility for you to say what Blizzard is going to do with level 90 talents?

Are you guys leaving them just how they are or are you actually going to tweak them sometime in the future?

This is the only information we need to decide if we're going to reroll or simply wait for the tweak.


I'd like to know this as well
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90 Human Hunter
8415
11/14/2012 07:08 PMPosted by Metuo
I'd like to know this as well


Me too. Only 1 of the hunter 90 talents is worth using. It's really demotivating me from getting that last level.
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80 Human Warrior
395
THIS IS NOT COOL GIVE US THE SPELL!!!!! PLEASEE!
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100 Worgen Mage
19135
11/14/2012 05:24 PMPosted by Daxxarri
I don't think we've seen the last of it. Delayed is more likely than scrapped, I'd say.


I think that's a fair assessment. We weren't happy with how this spell was working out on the PTR, and pulled it for now. We're looking into giving it some more polish, and possibly implementing it when the time is right.


Thanks for the headsup. Look forward to seeing the next incarnation.
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92 Undead Mage
8465
11/14/2012 05:24 PMPosted by Daxxarri
I think that's a fair assessment. We weren't happy with how this spell was working out on the PTR, and pulled it for now. We're looking into giving it some more polish, and possibly implementing it when the time is right.

Hmm, so the devs can see the mage forum. I guess those level 90 talent threads are just invisible or something lol...
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100 Troll Mage
10345
It also gave frost mages who wanted to use frost bomb a dot for the raid trinket that only procs off dots
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90 Human Mage
11765
11/14/2012 05:24 PMPosted by Daxxarri
I don't think we've seen the last of it. Delayed is more likely than scrapped, I'd say.


I think that's a fair assessment. We weren't happy with how this spell was working out on the PTR, and pulled it for now. We're looking into giving it some more polish, and possibly implementing it when the time is right.


Quality over quantity sounds fine. !@#$s got bugs? rather wait... unless they are ninja-buff-bugs in which case we want it now thanks :P
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11/14/2012 10:10 PMPosted by Metuo
6 months later...lvl 90 talents still not fixed lol

Change Invocation? Nah, you'd never use evocation for mana regen, right?
Blizzard hires -the-best- Trolls.
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91 Blood Elf Mage
11760
For the record, Lhiv's idea of the target acting frozen while water jet ticks sounds incredible, it'd be engaging as well since you could time it with pom and other buffs.
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