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I have spent some time looking through the Forums trying to find someone else experiencing the same problem, or others qq'ing about this, Yet I find virtually nothing specifically addressing paladin tank threat which is odd. ( maybe just me, although I doubt it )
Background before we begin - I have been playing this game since release. I have been paladin tanking since Burning Crusade. I really enjoyed and remeber naxx 2.0 in wotlk When I could throw my shield and as long as the fight did not require tank movement go afk as auto attacks would keep me top threat.
Now I am a semi serious Raider and our guild is always top 5 on our server, With Mop hitting exp and hit cap are much more important to our active mitigation so that was my priority.
If anything doing that would not be the cause of my low threat.
UNDERSTAND I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT 1 MIN INTO THE FIGHT WHEN I HAVE 70K VENGEANCE
I can be tanking a large group of adds and yes I have great survivability against large groups as my self heals are insane however our offtank which is a monk can come in 20 seconds later do one spin and boom literally pull all the mobs off me. I am not exaggerating.
I appreciate our self heals A LOT however id like to trade that for some more threat so I can do my Job properly. I take tanking very serious and its frustrating when I am supposed to be tanking 2 targets and our monk needs to tank 2 and he ends up getting them all.. Me spamming my taunt is not the answer.
Id appreciate some Feedback if anyone else notices this. I am not super familiar with Warrior or DK threat atm, so if any other tanks have noticed anything please let me know.
**** if other prot paladins are going to say "your wrong dude my threat is awesome" please only do so if you are tanking with a monk tank in the group as well*******
If he can come in 20 seconds after a pull and literally do one spin and take all threat from you, you are doing something seriously wrong. Like, very very wrong.
Before calling for buffs/nerfs, look at how you're playing your character. To get you started, I noticed your gemming and reforging is wildly inconsistent. You say you're prioritizing expertise and hit but you choose to socket mastery gems and don't always reforge into exp/hit.
I'm going to have to agree with Oglop on this one, in that you should look at yourself before asking for buffs etc.
I find quite the opposite when it comes to pack threat - I MT for my guild and we have a warrior OT, if he gets a head start I can usually pick aggro off of him within a few seconds. I've found (mostly) the same effect in LFR raids as well, where I'm taking aggro from the other tanks there.
For someone with an ilvl of what you have, and as someone who states they are going for hit/exp, there is no reason for you to not be at the hard cap for both hit and exp, especially with the +1% hit that your racial gives you.
Unless you're doing a magic heavy fight. Use Holy Avenger and Avenging Wrath on pull.
Holy Avenger will give you 3 HoPo per generating move and Avenging Wrath is a damage increaser so at the beginning of a fight you're putting out more threat and being able to keep your active mitigation up and build Bastion of Glory stacks faster.
It should help until your vengeance stacks to a reasonable level.
Also at your gear level you should be able to cap hit and expertise without dropping too much mastery.
My raiding tank has only ilevel 472 gear level and I have 7.46% hit with 15.00% expertise on him and 47% on mastery converstion
if you have trouble with that then this VP chestpiece can help Dawnblade's Chestguard
Oddly enough the VP "tank" chestpiece Cuirass of the Twin Monoliths has the same gem colors and the same socket bonus.
Getting your hit to cap and expertise to the 15% cap is very desirable according to paladin theory crafters and on Gara'jal last night I popped holy avenger at the same time as heroism was cast and being practically guaranteed a 3 HoPo with CS or Judgment allowed me to extend my Active Mitigation to 8 seconds left when HA ended.
The time stacks and is not overwritten when you use SotR when the buff from your last SotR is still active.
TLDR: Get 7.5% hit and 15.0% expertise capped asap. Yes you'll take slightly more damage overall but you'll be certain to have your active mitigation active when you need it if you pay attention and can make sure it's up when you're taking increased physical damage from bosses. Plus since you'll miss less you'll have better threat.
Edited by Fangthane on 11/15/2012 11:55 AM PST
I'll go one further--if it's the control build you're after, Hit and Expertise to hard cap is BETTER than Mastery for that build.
I have the same issue. It's not game breaking, it has nothing to do with our ability to keep threat once we have vengeance or to keep off dps, its an initial pull thing.
It's mostly just an annoyance. I assume the 20 seconds thing was a typo or an exaggeration. After 20 seconds it's mine. After 4 seconds its mine. It's more like UNDER 2 seconds..
Example: If we're planning on me taking boss first I run in, hit him. If he gives me a 2 count, he's not going to take threat without taunting. Just isn't going to happen. The world is fine.
BUT, if there's a trash pack of 10, even if I get there just before him, he just has to go spinning through...then I have my one mob, he's got 9. It's a pre vengeance numbers thing. Our one or two hits vs continuous damage. Even consecrate is not really continuous over this period (we're talking about the space of 1 tick).
The problem is once it happens it compounds: he's going to be getting more vengeance than you so by the time you get to that second or third tick, he's got em.
The monk COULD throttle a little to help make you feel better, but that's a bit patronizing. It's also not needed. Most packs like that can be solo tanked.
The only downside is the pally ego, and the fact that it makes trash not fun (last raid I just went for a smoke during trash... I don't think the monk even noticed).
But it's not your imagination. You SHOULD bring your hit and exp as close to cap as you can. Helps our active mitigation. Plus more initial threat is more initial threat. It's never a BAD thing. But right now, for those who don't roll a pally/monk tank combo, yes initial grab is a bit lopsided.
As for holy avenger...yes, could do that. I could also salv the other tank if I really absolutely need to grab mobs to make myself feel like a big boy, but I'm not going to. The mobs die, I can hold agro on boss no problem. Nothing is attacking dps or heals. The only downside is my ego and any real enjoyment I might've had tanking trash packs.
Edited by Jaxzer on 11/15/2012 2:03 PM PST
i highly doubt it is a matter of gear.
a 20 second head start. that's at least 2 consecrations, and holy wraths. not to mention the avengers shields and hotrs you throw out. not sure which seal you use, but either way no tank should be pulling anything off you with a 20 second head start.
if it's something like 5 seconds and the monk rushes in throwing dizzying haze, keg smashes, and crane kicks; then maybe.
Well even just a tad under 7.5% hit with 15% expertise my raiding paladin is at 47% mastery when the rating is converted. (including the Might Buff)
You are right, about the control spec. but at the OP's gear level he really shouldn't have to give up much mastery to obtain hit/exp. caps either.
Or to put it in other words even with most reforges dumped into hit and expertise, keeping a good amount of mastery is still possible.
Dude, Avenging Wrath is almost pointless on Prot. Glyph for Battle Healer, use Seal of Insight, and generate Agro from both your dps and glyph generated off-heals. I'm normally pulling 55k dps + 30k hps as Prot on boss fights, due to Battle Healer + Insight + Vengence. In aoe events, I'll easily pull 120k dps + 40k hps. On the off-chance I lose agro, then whoever took it really, really wanted it and can keep it as far as I'm concerned.
If you are using Seal of Truth or Seal of Righteous for tanking, you are doing it wrong, and yes, you will not hold agro with the current level of dps getting dished out in this game.
My threat is so high that I'll pull off our druid tank after she's taunted and hit a mob . . . from 20+ yards away. If anything my threat is too high. Have you spec'ed to increase your healing? The heals from battle healer will increase your threat and might help your issue.
EDIT: If anything, swap out dazing shield. That's doing nothing for you.
Edited by Jamina on 11/15/2012 6:00 PM PST
t's mostly just an annoyance. I assume the 20 seconds thing was a typo or an exaggeration. After 20 seconds it's mine. After 4 seconds its mine. It's more like UNDER 2 seconds..
So, what I'm hearing is that Monk tanks have more burst than Paladin tanks.
To the original poster:
It's a non issue. We have enough burst to hold threat off DPS, and that's what matters. You shouldn't have to fight your fellow tanks for aggro, especially not on a server top 5 guild like you say you're in.
Keggasm hits like six !@#$ing freight trains combined into a giant robot armed to the teath and ready to fight decepticons.
Only one train? Pshaw.
Look this whole thread is talking about AoE threat?!?! Seriously? lol
SO....your mad cuz a brewmaster is holding trash pulls over you?
Its called keg smash and SCK. And brewmasters have amazing dodge for AoE trash as well.
I mean...what boss are you having threat issues on that have AoE...and AoE that you both would be fighting for... Wind Lord?....and that's it...
1. Who cares about trash threat as long as a tank has it.
2. Its very difficult to hold AoE threat off of a Brewmaster, deal with it or single taunt more.
3. Refer to #1
Edited by Savior on 11/16/2012 11:11 AM PST
The other tank should stop having ego problems and start caring more about the success of the raid than "I wanna tank it!"
The first tank to get to the trash is going to have the vengeance and the threat. Trying to get "your share" is going to cause more problems than it solves. It splits healer attention and (potentially) screws up positioning.
The other tank needs to grow up.
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