Prot Paladin Threat Needs Help

85 Night Elf Warrior
0
I like my paladin...as Ret.

...I am deeply saddened by this turn of events.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12800
My oh my. Got a couple of folks who need to tuck it back in their pants.

Anyways. Relevant:

Trash more often than not does NOT matter. So it doesn't matter if one tank has it all on them or not. I could go in and pull all of Garalon's trash at once and be fine. There are exceptions to this, however. Notable ones would be some of the trash in HoF that stuns; you probably don't want to have everything hitting on you while stunned, 10 or 25. Also, switch out for the two trash pulls that put up mortal strikes. Heals will hate you if you get it to 90% reduction with the dot that's involved, too. The... spirit guys in MSV.... whatever they're called that do the knockback and damage buff themselves. Prolly can do 2 of those at once, but not really ideal.
Edited by Kaitelynn on 11/16/2012 6:01 PM PST
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90 Orc Death Knight
8625
You don't have any haste which would up your threat and your damage mitigation.
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90 Tauren Paladin
9160
Burst AoE threat on a Paladin does suck. It's because HotR is SOOO weak and Holy Wrath is weaker with the more targets you have. Consecrate is good, but it takes time to build up the damage. Imo, they should buff HotR damage, buff Seal of Righteousness so that it's actually useful, and nerf Consecrate damage.

However, if you're having problem single target, then you are messing up.

Windlord and Shek'zeer are about the only bosses this matters on, but it is an issue.

Edit:
11/15/2012 11:07 AMPosted by Kickgruntler
Are you sure he's not Keg Smashing, because Spinning Crane Kick shouldn't be pulling threat off a Paladin--a Keg Smash, however, might feasibly do so.


Yea, because Keg Smash hits as hard as Avenger's Shield with half the cooldown and no target cap. I have no idea how Blizzard ever thought that it would make sense to change an attack that was balanced around only hitting 3 targets, to hitting all targets, without nerfing the damage output. Hell, after 5.1 it's still going to be too strong with it still doing full damage to 5 targets.

Alternatively, I'd be fine with them making Avenger's Shield hit all targets. It wouldn't be balanced at all, but it would be cool to see my shield bouncing all around.
Edited by Blizzhoof on 11/17/2012 2:40 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Monk
6570
11/17/2012 02:15 AMPosted by Blizzhoof
Yea, because Keg Smash hits as hard as Avenger's Shield with half the cooldown and no target cap. I have no idea how Blizzard ever thought that it would make sense to change an attack that was balanced around only hitting 3 targets, to hitting all targets, without nerfing the damage output. Hell, after 5.1 it's still going to be too strong with it still doing full damage to 5 targets.


BrM Damage and threat was an issue single for BrM before then, so something had to be changed, and something significant.

Brewmaster threat consists of:

Keg Smash (+Dizzying Haze), Jab, Blackout Kick, Tiger Palm, Spinning Crane Kick, level 30 talent, Swift Reflexes

Now, let's say you significantly want to improve Brewmaster threat--you also have to be careful because you don't want to significantly improve Windwalker damage.

SCK is a bad idea, because it's situational.
Jab, Blackout Kick, Tiger Palm, and level 30 talents can't take the amount of damage buffs necessary, because that would also buff Windwalkers by a large amount--and anything nerffed to compensate would also be a nerf to Brewmaster threat, defeating the purpose.

That leaves Keg Smash and Swift Reflexes.

Coincidentally, Keg Smash and Swift Reflexes were what were buffed in damage.

As it turns out, Keg Smash's buff was an overbuff, so they scaled it back on large numbers of targets. I'm fine with that.

Alternatively, I'd be fine with them making Avenger's Shield hit all targets. It wouldn't be balanced at all, but it would be cool to see my shield bouncing all around.


Yeah, but that doesn't apply weakened blows. HoR does, and that's the standard they used for the weakened blows applier. We can't use Keg Smash as a ranged pull.
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90 Tauren Paladin
9160
I know why they uncapped the targets. I'm saying that it was stupid to leave the damage per target the same on an ability that was BALANCED AROUND only hitting 3 targets when they uncapped it. They needed to remove the cap so Brewmasters could apply WB to all targets effectively, but they should have nerfed the damage past 3 targets. That should have been common sense.

When I saw the change I knew it was going to be broken and I'm not a game developer. They're changing it in 5.1 to do less after five targets, but that's still too much. You just have to look at Windlord parses to see that. Monks without hit/exp caps are crushing other tanks that are hit/exp capped and that's an issue in my eyes.

Edit: They also need to buff Paladin burst AoE without upping our overall damage imo. I only have one taunt and making the DPS warrior throttle on the pull is something they themselves have classified as "not fun."
Edited by Blizzhoof on 11/17/2012 4:13 AM PST
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39 Worgen Warlock
0
It's kind of annoying because they could have accomplished the same purpose by A) having KS hit 3 targets, but apply Dizzying Haze/WB to all and B) having, say, dodged/avoided attacks give you a 10% chance to proc a free Breath of Fire.
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90 Human Paladin
10920
I have both a heal spec and a prot spec. Just don't forget righteous fury. I have forgotten it and wondered why it was so hard to keep threat. When you change specs it drops off
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12800
11/17/2012 08:19 PMPosted by Nimicry
I have both a heal spec and a prot spec. Just don't forget righteous fury. I have forgotten it and wondered why it was so hard to keep threat. When you change specs it drops off


Relevance: 0%
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90 Pandaren Monk
6570
11/17/2012 03:35 AMPosted by Blizzhoof
I know why they uncapped the targets. I'm saying that it was stupid to leave the damage per target the same on an ability that was BALANCED AROUND only hitting 3 targets when they uncapped it. They needed to remove the cap so Brewmasters could apply WB to all targets effectively, but they should have nerfed the damage past 3 targets. That should have been common sense.


True, if and only if BrM were balanced at the time. They were dealing too little threat and damage. They didn't want to add more to the rotation, so their only options were Keg Smash and Swift Reflexes, and Swift Reflexes won't help you build threat when you're not actively being hit (read: Spiritbinder)
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
Jab, Blackout Kick, Tiger Palm, and level 30 talents can't take the amount of damage buffs necessary, because that would also buff Windwalkers by a large amount--and anything nerffed to compensate would also be a nerf to Brewmaster threat, defeating the purpose.


They have complete ability, and they've used this, to be able to have different spells/talents work differently or be stronger for certain specs, so I'm not sure why you think this applies.

Never mind that they can separate the damage and the debuff application portion, as they've shown in various other spells. Hell, even HotR is an example of this effect.

Side note:
I am disappointed by the lack of mention of freight trains wielding Algalons dual wielding Lich Kings.
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90 Pandaren Monk
6570
11/18/2012 05:46 AMPosted by Slashlove
They have complete ability, and they've used this, to be able to have different spells/talents work differently or be stronger for certain specs, so I'm not sure why you think this applies.


While this is true, those abilities may not be coded that way. If they are not coded that way, then changing them requires a considerable amount of work compared to 'change this one number over here.'

It's enough to mean the difference between a server-side hotfix and a full-blown patch to the client, as well as time and resources spent.

While Swift Reflexes IS coded that way, Blackout Kick and Jab might not be so easily tweaked.

But that wasn't the most elegant solution either. Monks were having AoE AND single target issues. Keg Smash is the only ability that deals with both, and Swift Reflexes didn't deal with the Garalai problem that was looming over the horizon.

Honestly tho, I don't think the problem is that Monks do too much inate damage, per se.

Monks are simply not heavily encouraged to dip into non-dps stats. Druids like Mastery and Dodge, but Monks don't get the same upsides from either for general all purpose tanking. As a result Monks are diving headfirst into DPS stats--should it be surprising to anyone that monks can dps as a result?

Never mind that they can separate the damage and the debuff application portion, as they've shown in various other spells. Hell, even HotR is an example of this effect.


Indeed, and that's what they did for Seal of Truth. Doesn't mean it was the right fix for monks tho.

Side note:
I am disappointed by the lack of mention of freight trains wielding Algalons dual wielding Lich Kings.


Do they combine into one giant robot?
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
While this is true, those abilities may not be coded that way. If they are not coded that way, then changing them requires a considerable amount of work compared to 'change this one number over here.'

It's enough to mean the difference between a server-side hotfix and a full-blown patch to the client, as well as time and resources spent.


No, not really. They leave themselves a lot more room for that kind of stuff now.

Monks are simply not heavily encouraged to dip into non-dps stats. Druids like Mastery and Dodge, but Monks don't get the same upsides from either for general all purpose tanking. As a result Monks are diving headfirst into DPS stats--should it be surprising to anyone that monks can dps as a result?


Druids are absolutely driving into "dps" stats as well, btw. So are Paladins. Monks aren't really make unique by this.
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39 Worgen Warlock
0
11/18/2012 08:33 AMPosted by Kickgruntler
should it be surprising to anyone that monks can dps as a result?


The stats themselves don't matter. The modifiers on abilities do.

It doesn't matter if you have 2m AP if you only get 0.000001% of AP into your Jab.
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90 Pandaren Warrior
10115
the argument that the non monk tank should grow up is retarded. youre a tank, when it comes down to it you want to be useful even on trash. You play the game tanking for you is fun. You want stuff to hit you, you want vengeance so you can do more damage. Thats fun. No one wants to sit there doing pitiful damage while the other tank does everything, so we can sit there and say hey everyone look how mature i am. Its just poor game design even on trash it matters and on bosses having the monk not have to attack its just an annoying quality of life thing. id gladly take a 2 second cd increase on shield slam if it hit every target and caused more threat.
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90 Night Elf Warrior
16175
11/19/2012 12:33 AMPosted by Onslaught
the argument that the non monk tank should grow up is retarded. youre a tank, when it comes down to it you want to be useful even on trash. You play the game tanking for you is fun. You want stuff to hit you, you want vengeance so you can do more damage. Thats fun. No one wants to sit there doing pitiful damage while the other tank does everything, so we can sit there and say hey everyone look how mature i am. Its just poor game design even on trash it matters and on bosses having the monk not have to attack its just an annoying quality of life thing. id gladly take a 2 second cd increase on shield slam if it hit every target and caused more threat.


Ok. Lets say they make that change, and adjust rage gen so you don't lose survivability over it. One of two things happens

1) Monks may still have a stronger opener, they get everything from the start, vengeance makes sure they stay ahead, nothing changes.

2) Now shield slam is the stronger opener. The warrior gets everything from the start, vengeance makes sure they stay ahead, now the warrior is tanking everything and the monk has nothing.

Its a pretty binary situation. If you aren't specifically taking measures to ensure trash gets split, most of the time one tank will wind up with nearly all of it, mostly a factor of whoever gets in there first. Attacks with target limits, or lucky crits can cause pulls to split, but they aren't reliable unless one of the tanks backs off a bit and makes sure the other gets a few targets.
Edited by Asthas on 11/19/2012 1:05 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Monk
6570
11/18/2012 11:51 AMPosted by Rijdot
should it be surprising to anyone that monks can dps as a result?


The stats themselves don't matter. The modifiers on abilities do.

It doesn't matter if you have 2m AP if you only get 0.000001% of AP into your Jab.


When we're talking about stats that don't involve the abilities' coefficients, stat scaling doesn't really matter.

Hardcapping Expertise and Hit's going to boost your damage by 22.5%, unless you have unparriable attacks--monks don't. Gunning for Crit is going to improve your damage proportionally, unless they undo every ability having a 100% crit damage mod. Gunning for haste is going to make our white and yellow damage happen more often... except for crit, none of these factors have anything to do with coefficients or ability scaling.

If you get 22.5% hit/exp, 33% haste, 20% crit, you're going to be boosting your damage in three ways that multiply with each other.

It helps that we have strong abilities that hit hard too, but if we geared for evasion stats, our damage would fall off signifigantly, there's just no denying that.
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90 Pandaren Monk
6570
11/19/2012 12:33 AMPosted by Onslaught
the argument that the non monk tank should grow up is retarded. youre a tank, when it comes down to it you want to be useful even on trash. You play the game tanking for you is fun. You want stuff to hit you, you want vengeance so you can do more damage. Thats fun. No one wants to sit there doing pitiful damage while the other tank does everything, so we can sit there and say hey everyone look how mature i am. Its just poor game design even on trash it matters and on bosses having the monk not have to attack its just an annoying quality of life thing. id gladly take a 2 second cd increase on shield slam if it hit every target and caused more threat.


I dunno, that's not what I'd be suggesting.

I'd suggest the monk grow up and stop applying threat to mobs he doesn't need to tank--and that the warrior should be fine mitigating damage like a boss. If the fight happens over trash, however, it's really not worth the drama. It doesn't help down content. Let the other tank do that, while the warrior goes to grab snacks or something. It's trash. Whatever. It's not actually that important.

On bosses however, it's vital that the monk know how not to steal agro he doesn't need.

Look, how's a better way to explain it--there's never going to be true parity between two tanks. One tank is going to do more damage than the other tank and pull more threat. That's not class design, that's a combination of factors ranging from player skill with the rotation, to gear, to class design, to whether the tank is in his niche... you can NEVER have a situation where two tanks are absolutely equal.

So, you're always going to have a situation where one tank is 'the beast' like this monk is, and one tank is behind like this warrior. Now, you can cry and moan about nerfs or change gearing strategies, or do a whole bunch of different things, but it's going to do one of two things:

It'll switch the roles, so now the warrior is on top and the monk is not

OR

Nothing will change.

The first is simply reversing the problem, and the second doesn't solve the problem. So the problem -cannot be solved by gearing.- It cannot be solved by class fixes, it cannot be solved by ANYTHING AT ALL except for the dominant tank learning how to handle it so that his threat doesn't become an issue in the encounter.

Getting the tanks closer to each other will make this job easier... but at the end of the day, that's the ONLY viable answer, because it's the ONLY way that can actually address the problem.
Edited by Kickgruntler on 11/19/2012 6:02 AM PST
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39 Worgen Warlock
0
11/19/2012 05:54 AMPosted by Kickgruntler
It helps that we have strong abilities that hit hard too, but if we geared for evasion stats, our damage would fall off signifigantly, there's just no denying that.


You are missing what I'm saying.

The fact that we're gearing for DPS stats has no bearing on whether or not we can DPS efficiently, because our scaling is what determines our output, not whether we have X% crit.
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90 Night Elf Warrior
16175
It helps that we have strong abilities that hit hard too, but if we geared for evasion stats, our damage would fall off signifigantly, there's just no denying that.


You are missing what I'm saying.

The fact that we're gearing for DPS stats has no bearing on whether or not we can DPS efficiently, because our scaling is what determines our output, not whether we have X% crit.


It is true that for any given gearing style, you could make changes to attack power coefficients and what have you get damage to where you want, but you can't really hit the same target with very different gearing styles at the same time.

The difference in damage between a monk gearing dodge/parry/mastery versus one going hit/expertise/crit/haste is going to be rather large, no matter what you do with ability scaling through the standard channels. And it will always be unless you start implementing weird rules, like giving brewmasters a very low critical damage multiplier, so that crit doesn't change damage much.

Its possible that they didn't expect monks to go so hard into "dps" stats. I haven't looked closely at exactly what other tanks are capable of, but I'm pretty sure no one comes even close to competing with our damage in AoE situations. If they thought monks would want mastery and reforge into some dodge/parry and stuff, then they would tune our damage based on that, and it would explain why monks would exceed that target giving the gearing style that is actually in use.
Edited by Asthas on 11/19/2012 8:02 AM PST
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