Prot Paladin Threat Needs Help

90 Pandaren Monk
6570
11/19/2012 06:39 AMPosted by Rijdot
The fact that we're gearing for DPS stats has no bearing on whether or not we can DPS efficiently, because our scaling is what determines our output, not whether we have X% crit.


Alright, let's look at a high damage monk and see what his gear is doing for him.

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/f06df3nnxqpzdash/details/1/?s=2386&e=2621 from Garajai normal.

She's rocking 7.56% hit, 12.35 expertise. If those were mitigation stats instead, she'd be suffering a minimum 19.91% damage loss across the board. Then let's look at her crit situation.

She's getting 4.00% from the crit on her gear, so let's look at what this loss is doing for her yellow damage, and her white damage seperately.

For yellow damage, of her hits, she gets parried 2.59% of the time. So for every 1M points of damage (before crits) she'd be doing, instead she's doing 974.1K. Her crit then doubles 19.08% of what is left (yellow damage two-rolls) and that means her baseline would be 1.159M damage.

If she instead went hard into the paint with avoidance, every 1M points before crit becomes 775.0K. Her loss of crit puts her at 15.08% doubling rate, which gives would make that 891.9K damage.

In other words, a loss of 23.04% on her yellow damage.

For white hits, it uses a one-roll system, so the math changes.

Before, 2.59% of that 1M is negated, but 19.08% of it is doubled. The math is much simpler as it is additive, so for every 1M pre-adjustment, she'll actually do 1.165M.

After, 22.5% of that 1M is negated, and only 15.08% of that is doubled, leaving a postadjustment of 925.8K damage.

That is a loss of white damage of 20.5%.

So if we look at her parse, 26.1% of her damage is voodoo doll, leaving 74.9% of the actual damage to work with. Of that, 16.8% of her damage is white damage, leaving 57.1% of the damage as yellow. Another way of putting it is that for every 571 yellow damage she does, she does 168 white damage, for a total of 749 damage.

Losing 23.04% on her yellow damage reduces that to 439 damage. Losing 20.5% of 168 damage reduces it to 134 damage.

So for every 749 she would have done before, instead she does 573 damage, which means that if we remove her hit and expertise and crit, she loses 23% of her damage.

Another way of putting that is a quarter of her damage comes from those three stats alone. Ability scaling doesn't even factor into this. Three stats are providing a quarter of her damage.

This doesn't factor in haste OR agility, which themselves affect DPS through more than just AP scaling--haste through increased energy, and agility through increased crit%.
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39 Worgen Warlock
0
I'm going to speak slowly. Listen to the words I'm saying.

The reason we have high DPS... is not because... we wear DPS gear with DPS stats. The reason we have high DPS... is not because... our gear does not have avoidance stats.

If it was, kitties would not deal more damage than bears.

If it was, windwalkers would not deal more damage than brewmasters without vengeance.

The reason we have high DPS... is because the modifiers... on our abilities... scale very high. This is the reason Keg Smash hits so much harder than, say, Spinning Crane Kick.

It's not a difficult concept.

No !@#$ choosing hit, expertise, etc. over dodge and parry are going to yield more DPS than otherwise. But claiming it's because there's crit, haste, agility on our gear instead of avoidance stats... that's just idiocy.
Edited by Rijdot on 11/19/2012 10:55 AM PST
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1 Blood Elf Rogue
0
Now, let's say you significantly want to improve Brewmaster threat--you also have to be careful because you don't want to significantly improve Windwalker damage.

SCK is a bad idea, because it's situational.
Jab, Blackout Kick, Tiger Palm, and level 30 talents can't take the amount of damage buffs necessary, because that would also buff Windwalkers by a large amount--and anything nerffed to compensate would also be a nerf to Brewmaster threat, defeating the purpose.

That leaves Keg Smash and Swift Reflexes.


They could have buffed the BrM AoE damage spell that's apparently so bad you forgot to even mention it.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
4705
lol so true you just cant think/say that
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90 Pandaren Monk
6570
11/19/2012 11:09 AMPosted by Aureus
They could have buffed the BrM AoE damage spell that's apparently so bad you forgot to even mention it.


They could have buffed the damage on crackling jade lightning.

What does this have to do with monk threat in raids?
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90 Pandaren Monk
6570
11/19/2012 10:39 AMPosted by Rijdot
No !@#$ choosing hit, expertise, etc. over dodge and parry are going to yield more DPS than otherwise. But claiming it's because there's crit, haste, agility on our gear instead of avoidance stats... that's just idiocy.


Then you've chosen to misconstrue my point.

If one tank is statted for mitigation, and the other in dps stats, and both tanks are otherwise in equivalent gear, I expect one tank to do about 60-75% as much damage than the other tank, if things are balanced.

If you get wildly different numbers in either direction... then you can start talking about AP ratios being out of whack. But what's the damage differential? is it something gear can explain, or something it can't?
Edited by Kickgruntler on 11/20/2012 6:32 PM PST
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90 Orc Death Knight
8890
11/19/2012 09:07 PMPosted by Kickgruntler
If one tank is statted for mitigation, and the other in dps stats, and both tanks are otherwise in equivalent gear, I expect one tank to do about 60-75% less damage than the other tank, if things are balanced.


Except that only works if you are comparing the same class to itself. A Monk stacking avoidance/mastery is obviously going to do less damage than one with hit/exp, but that doesn't mean the same is true comparing different classes.

Bears have almost always had more haste, crit, and accuracy than the plate tanks, but that didn't meant they did double the damage. Classes are balanced around the stats they have access to.
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90 Human Paladin
13960
8080


I have spent some time looking through the Forums trying to find someone else experiencing the same problem, or others qq'ing about this, Yet I find virtually nothing specifically addressing paladin tank threat which is odd. ( maybe just me, although I doubt it )Background before we begin - I have been playing this game since release. I have been paladin tanking since Burning Crusade. I really enjoyed and remeber naxx 2.0 in wotlk When I could throw my shield and as long as the fight did not require tank movement go afk as auto attacks would keep me top threat.Now I am a semi serious Raider and our guild is always top 5 on our server, With Mop hitting exp and hit cap are much more important to our active mitigation so that was my priority. If anything doing that would not be the cause of my low threat. UNDERSTAND I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT 1 MIN INTO THE FIGHT WHEN I HAVE 70K VENGEANCEI can be tanking a large group of adds and yes I have great survivability against large groups as my self heals are insane however our offtank which is a monk can come in 20 seconds later do one spin and boom literally pull all the mobs off me. I am not exaggerating. I appreciate our self heals A LOT however id like to trade that for some more threat so I can do my Job properly. I take tanking very serious and its frustrating when I am supposed to be tanking 2 targets and our monk needs to tank 2 and he ends up getting them all.. Me spamming my taunt is not the answer. Id appreciate some Feedback if anyone else notices this. I am not super familiar with Warrior or DK threat atm, so if any other tanks have noticed anything please let me know. **** if other prot paladins are going to say "your wrong dude my threat is awesome" please only do so if you are tanking with a monk tank in the group as well*******

#1
5 days ago

So to touch on your original topic before all the epeen and arguments. Yes our threat sucks right now. It is anoying and will probably get fixed down the road a bit. This was simply because some classes got a very large buff while our class suffered a pretty large nerf. They tried some things to bring us back inline i think they fell a little short. Wait until everyone has had a little fun being OP while rolling the FOTM class and they will get nerfed a bit and it will get better.
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39 Worgen Warlock
0
11/20/2012 10:56 AMPosted by Noobson
Yet I find virtually nothing specifically addressing paladin tank threat which is odd


This is because paladin tank threat is not a problem.

If you are struggling with your co-tank, either you (or he) needs to stop with the ego-swinging and back off. This is true of any 2 tank situation.

/thread
Edited by Rijdot on 11/20/2012 11:12 AM PST
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90 Human Paladin
7505
^ This
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
Then you've chosen to misconstrue my point.

If one tank is statted for mitigation, and the other in dps stats, and both tanks are otherwise in equivalent gear, I expect one tank to do about 60-75% less damage than the other tank, if things are balanced.


That doesn't actually work that way. They design based on the total output, not the individual spells.

Since Druids and Monks are balaced around having Crit/Haste already, the other tanks simply have AP scaling (or % damage bonuses) altered so the end result is around the same area and the one who isn't getting Crit is still at the same level.

Keg Smash bypasses this because ... it's Keg Smash.

Your logic only works for the same class itself shifting from one paradigm to the other, which can never actually be applied because we don't get pure avoidance gear.
Edited by Slashlove on 11/20/2012 12:33 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
11/20/2012 11:08 AMPosted by Rijdot
Yet I find virtually nothing specifically addressing paladin tank threat which is odd


This is because paladin tank threat is not a problem.

If you are struggling with your co-tank, either you (or he) needs to stop with the ego-swinging and back off. This is true of any 2 tank situation.

/thread

This.
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90 Human Paladin
13960
Never said there was a problem! Its the ebb and flow of the game. Sometimes we get nerfs and things are a bit rough other times we get buffed and we are over powered. Thats just how it goes. But hey you miss quote me i screwed up my quote no biggie.
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90 Night Elf Monk
8430
Back in BC I remember when warriors couldn't pull off paladins, AOE. So what I did as a paladin was pull the packs, let the warrior mark and peel (took a while), then I ran for another pack. You can't both have all the mobs. So if the other tank -- whatever it is -- is holding them better than you, look for ways you can streamline the pulls or assist them. Or just go for more mobs, assuming the healers can keep up.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
3880
If you don't have up Righteous Fury, Then you don't have aggro. If you do, You are doing something wrong
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39 Worgen Warlock
0
They could have buffed the damage on crackling jade lightning.

What does this have to do with monk threat in raids?


It's a bit ago, but you do remember why Keg Smash was turned from Keg Cleave to KEGBLITERATEAMGZ, right?
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12800
11/20/2012 10:56 AMPosted by Noobson
I appreciate our self heals A LOT however id like to trade that for some more threat so I can do my Job properly


Your job is to make sure crap ain't hitting your DPS and heals. If your other tank has the mobs, so bloody what? Objective still complete.

The only time trash threat is/will be an issue AT ALL is when there are trash mobs that do any of the following:

1) Stun
2) CC tanks somehow
3) Mortal Strike
4) Some other stacking debuff that needs to reset

As far as trash goes, that's all tanks should have to worry about as far as threat goes. I'll gladly let the DK tank here continue getting virtually all of the trash otherwise.

11/20/2012 10:56 AMPosted by Noobson
I take tanking very serious and its frustrating when I am supposed to be tanking 2 targets and our monk needs to tank 2 and he ends up getting them all.


Unless the mobs fall into one of the four categories above, it really isn't an issue at all. You're just making it one. That said, if the trash DOES fall into one of these categories, and your monk is tanking it all with you doing your best to keep the mob(s) you need to keep, then tell your monk/whatever to back the hell off. Nicely, though. Unless he's not a nice person.
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90 Orc Death Knight
8890
They could have buffed the damage on crackling jade lightning.

What does this have to do with monk threat in raids?


It's a bit ago, but you do remember why Keg Smash was turned from Keg Cleave to KEGBLITERATEAMGZ, right?


It was easier than letting SCK either be stronger or allowing it/KS apply weakened blows to everything?
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90 Pandaren Monk
6570
They could have buffed the damage on crackling jade lightning.

What does this have to do with monk threat in raids?


It's a bit ago, but you do remember why Keg Smash was turned from Keg Cleave to KEGBLITERATEAMGZ, right?


Because monks were having threat issues in single target and aoe situations, and Keg Smash and Swift Reflexes were the only dials they could tweak for both.

That person posited that they could have buffed Breath of Fire--which isn't really going to help seeing as that Monks can't really use it in the content where monks were lagging in threat.
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39 Worgen Warlock
0


It's a bit ago, but you do remember why Keg Smash was turned from Keg Cleave to KEGBLITERATEAMGZ, right?


Because monks were having threat issues in single target and aoe situations, and Keg Smash and Swift Reflexes were the only dials they could tweak for both.

That person posited that they could have buffed Breath of Fire--which isn't really going to help seeing as that Monks can't really use it in the content where monks were lagging in threat.


Buffing Breath of Fire could involve making it useable in said situations.

Such as, making it cause Shuffle. Or, making it a free proc a la Ultimatum.

Those are buffs.
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