question on tanks hit and expertise

90 Blood Elf Death Knight
6455
hit and expertise is not mandatory for blood dks,you can avoid it completly and have no trouble keeping aggro,dps,and heals up. as for other tank classes,they dont have the luxary of having moves that are magic centered and cant be dodged of parry(refers to blood boil over heartstrike if your going for a non hit or exp rotation)
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39 Worgen Warlock
0
Hit permits Rune Strike to land. If Rune Strike does not land, RE/RC/BT do not proc.

Hit/Expertise permit Outbreak to land. If Outbreak does not land, diseases must be manually applied, which eats resources.

It's true that Hit/Expertise are less valued for DKs than other tanks (which makes DK gearing somewhat boring) but not for the reasons you state.
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90 Draenei Paladin
5475
Avenger Shield has a 15% spell hit cap, so 7.5% hit + 7.5% exp is a soft cap for us. I was at that for the interrupt (Challenge Mode thing) until the last couple upgrades made it so easy to get exp hard capped.

Are you sure about that? As far as I know it's always been considered a ranged attack, like a hunter shot, and I've had it miss quite a bit in heroics back in Cataclysm when we were spell hit capped passively (but not capped for melee/ranged attacks because who capped hit?). I don't see why they would suddenly change it to a spell in MoP.


Honestly, I just know going from 7.5% hit 0% expertise to 7.5% hit and 7.5% expertise made avenger's shield always hit. I made a thread asking why my hit capped avenger shield was still missing and one person said it could be dodged, another said it was a spell. Elitist jerks says it's a spell.

It doesn't matter tho. Whether it's a spell or a ranged attack, 7.5% expertise has the same effect since exp counts as spell hit after hit cap.
Edited by Slalin on 11/17/2012 11:46 AM PST
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90 Tauren Paladin
8220
11/17/2012 11:45 AMPosted by Slalin
Honestly, I just know going from 7.5% hit 0% expertise to 7.5% hit and 7.5% expertise made avenger's shield always hit. I made a thread asking why my hit capped avenger shield was still missing and one person said it could be dodged, another said it was a spell. Elitist jerks says it's a spell.

Oh, that's true. If it's a ranged attack, it can be dodged now. I haven't not been expertise dodge capped since 5.0.4 came out so I wouldn't have seen that.
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90 Pandaren Monk
6570
11/17/2012 11:45 AMPosted by Slalin
It doesn't matter tho. Whether it's a spell or a ranged attack, 7.5% expertise has the same effect since exp counts as spell hit after hit cap.


Right, but they can't be parried which is why for some tanks there actually IS an expertise softcap.

Monks are not one of those tanks, by the way.
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90 Pandaren Warrior
15860
Paladins have important attacks besides shield toss. You guys seem to be forgetting that.
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90 Pandaren Monk
6570
11/18/2012 05:52 AMPosted by Ðemolition
Paladins have important attacks besides shield toss. You guys seem to be forgetting that.


Judgment also can't be parried.

BUT, CS can, and so in the case of paladins, there is a dropoff in generation past the dodge cap.

It's not just not enough of a drop-off to convince a paladin to stop there, is all.
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90 Draenei Paladin
5475
11/18/2012 05:52 AMPosted by Ðemolition
Paladins have important attacks besides shield toss. You guys seem to be forgetting that.


Pretty sure the soft cap affects holy wrath, hammer of wrath, and possibly consecrate too.

The hard cap is just SotR (which I'm pretty sure doesn't even have to hit to mitigate), crusader strike/hammer of the righteous, autoattack.

Losing 7.5% exp makes you generate 7.5% less HoPo with one HoPo generator. One. What encounter is that gonna break you on?
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90 Tauren Paladin
8220
11/18/2012 08:38 AMPosted by Slalin
Losing 7.5% exp makes you generate 7.5% less HoPo with one HoPo generator. One. What encounter is that gonna break you on?

Any where you get parried at a bad time (or several times in a row) and can't get ShoR up to mitigate a big attack. It's not about how often it happens, it's about preventing it from happening at all.
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90 Draenei Paladin
5475
11/18/2012 09:12 AMPosted by Keten
Losing 7.5% exp makes you generate 7.5% less HoPo with one HoPo generator. One. What encounter is that gonna break you on?

Any where you get parried at a bad time (or several times in a row) and can't get ShoR up to mitigate a big attack. It's not about how often it happens, it's about preventing it from happening at all.


Great.

Doesn't answer my question.
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90 Tauren Paladin
8220
Great.

Doesn't answer my question.

As far as I know, every current boss, both in dungeons and raids, can parry.
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90 Draenei Paladin
5475
Great.

Doesn't answer my question.

As far as I know, every current boss, both in dungeons and raids, can parry.


er...

lemme restate

What boss can an expertise hardcapped tank beat that a tank that isn't hardcapped can't beat? What boss is that 7.5% more HoPo critical for?
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90 Tauren Paladin
10645
On Sacred duty website a simulation was done with varying stats for 9 differant sets of gear.

The simulation ran with 2hits all the way up to 7hits. What that means is the simulation checked on how well each set performed on such a limited time frame as 2 hits...all the way up to 7 hits.

I could copy paste but i believe its not neccesary

Ill copy and post thecks conclusions.

To be honest, I was a bit surprised by the results. I didn’t expect the dominance of expertise hard-cap to be so universal across different time scales. Again, I figured it would be good, but I didn’t realize just how thoroughly it would trounce everything else. After seeing these results, I don’t think there’s any doubt – hit cap and expertise cap are our first gearing priorities for a “control” gearing strategy.

Beyond that, we have more flexibility. The exp/avoidance set didn’t perform all that poorly, but it also never stood out compared to the exp/haste or exp/mastery sets. It gave us a little better spike protection against 90% events in the 5- and 6-attack brackets, but was also far worse (by a factor of ~2 to almost ~100) at dealing with 80% spikes in those same situations. At shorter time scales it was far worse all around, and there’s no apparent advantage at longer time scales either. So avoidance isn’t explicitly bad, but it’s definitely not as attractive as haste or mastery. It’s hard to recommend the expertise/avoidance strategy over exp/haste or exp/mastery.

Both haste and mastery have their strong points. Mastery seems to give you the most effective coverage at longer time scales, while they’re about the same at short time scales. Haste is arguably stronger (but not much) for 4-5 attacks, but at 3 or fewer it’s really a toss-up. If we’re assuming that we care about 5 or fewer hits, then you’re pretty safe choosing either as your go-to stat (after hit/exp caps, of course!). Again, haste has the advantage of giving you a non-trivial amount of DPS, which will probably tip the scales in favor of haste for hard-mode raiders. For tanks progressing at a slower pace, and thus not as concerned with personal DPS, exp/mastery is perfectly acceptable as well.


From Sacredduty.com

http://sacredduty.net/2012/10/05/damage-smoothing-follow-up/

I think, to "control your HoPo generation more effectively" you need to be hit/exp capped

Jake
Edited by Jakethetank on 11/18/2012 9:51 AM PST
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90 Tauren Paladin
8220
None. You're stuck on the wrong question. It's not "Which boss requires expertise capping to beat?", it's "What happens if I don't expertise cap?" And the answer to that question is "Sometimes, bad luck makes bad things happen that wouldn't happen if I was capped".

You could beat every boss with no hit or expertise at all. You'd just have to accept that sometimes--perhaps rarely, perhaps never if you're lucky--the stars will align and you won't be able to get ShoR up at a crucial time and the boss will kill you.
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90 Draenei Paladin
5475
That still doesn't answer my question...

None. You're stuck on the wrong question. It's not "Which boss requires expertise capping to beat?", it's "What happens if I don't expertise cap?" And the answer to that question is "Sometimes, bad luck makes bad things happen that wouldn't happen if I was capped".

You could beat every boss with no hit or expertise at all. You'd just have to accept that sometimes--perhaps rarely, perhaps never if you're lucky--the stars will align and you won't be able to get ShoR up at a crucial time and the boss will kill you.


Thank you. And even then we have cooldowns, baseline or external.
Edited by Slalin on 11/18/2012 9:57 AM PST
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90 Tauren Paladin
10645
11/18/2012 08:38 AMPosted by Slalin
Losing 7.5% exp makes you generate 7.5% less HoPo with one HoPo generator. One. What encounter is that gonna break you on?


None.

I think this is about HoPo generation and less about hitting and parrying.

but not for one boss in the game will it be unbeatable with 7.5% exp :/
Edited by Jakethetank on 11/18/2012 10:00 AM PST
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90 Tauren Paladin
8220
11/18/2012 09:56 AMPosted by Slalin
Thank you. And even then we have cooldowns, baseline or external.

Yeah. It's not an unwinnable situation, but it is undesirable. Expertise hard capping gives us the reliability to save those cooldowns for specific moments.
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90 Pandaren Warrior
15860
Running around trying to argue you don't NEED to do X isn't doing you any favors.

I could use all crit gems and probably get by.

That doesn't mean its a good idea.
Edited by Ðemolition on 11/18/2012 10:39 AM PST
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