Tyrande, Night Elves and You!

90 Dwarf Paladin
6620
I have a theory that Hakkar is An'she (Let's not discuss that here).

But we know the Tauren do in fact revere Mu'sha and Tauren Druids get power from her, as that's how the Druids have always been taught, because Hamuul was taught that brand of Druidism from Night Elves.

They didn't pick up An'she until recently.


Wasn't there a story in thunder bluff stated that An'she and Mu'sha re the ripped out eyes of the Earthmother. I think the tauren didn't know An'she was Elune until recently not that she didn't exist.
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99 Troll Hunter
13645
11/16/2012 10:44 PMPosted by Garlann
Wasn't there a story in thunder bluff stated that An'she and Mu'sha re the ripped out eyes of the Earthmother. I think the tauren didn't know An'she was Elune until recently not that she didn't exist.

The Tauren have always known Elune is Mu'sha. If they didn't always know, they knew not long before they rediscovered An'she.

They've always been using the Night Elves' brand of moon based Druidism up until Tahu Sagewind started to notice the similarities between Elune and Mu'sha from the Tauren myths, and started to search for the Sun, because Tauren want to achieve balance.
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90 Night Elf Warrior
0
Wow. First off, I can honestly say I have never heard a theory like this before. Props Ferlion for the creativity. I just can't get behind this one though. Night elves need a major overhaul. They need to be less hippy or the world's greatest screw ups and become the savage, proud and noble race that are the guardians of nature. I want to see the night elves walk into Orgrimmar and tear Garrosh's throat out. I want to see them push back all threats from their land. They need to start asserting their views in the alliance and they need to deny Varian the power to control the sentinel army. They need to stop being this paragon of the light. But I don't think cutting them off from Elune is the way to go.

K so, if Elune was cut off from them then yes, the night elves would be out for blood. And they probably would delve into dark magic and more primal arts to get it. Personally though, after drawing the attention of the burning legion and sundering the world I think they learned their lesson about dark arcane power. Yes, they reintroduced the highborne into their society bit I've always seen the new role of their mages as support and augmentation. I think having them support the sentinels as they charge into battle with an arcane barrage and helping amplify druidic spells is the way to go. Having them revert back to Azshara-era sorcery is not a good idea. I for one am tired of the kaldorei accidentally sending the world to Hell in a hand-basket. Besides isn't that what elves are for.

Second, Elune supposedly has the power to create entire species, raise sentient beings to demi-god status and be able to completely stop violence by making everyone around feel her presence. THis just doesn't seem like some one who can be affected by 'mortal' magic. Ancients have been killed by demons, and loa can die in score to the people who worshiped them so isn't Garrosh's warlocks doing the same to Elune. This puts her on par wit the trolls' demi-gods and I just can't see Azeroth's one true deity going the way of Hethiss and the likes up in Northrend. And not to be tacky and quote iron man 2 but if a god bleeds then their followers will cease to believe in them. I don't think the kaldorei would continue to worship her if they are the ones who are giving her the power. This is a race that would rather die then except help from the furbolg and tauren who were their friends.

Not to undermine your idea. That is probably the most thought out, well explained and justified theory I've ever heard. It's a perfect Blizzard plot line that fits well with the lore. It would also finally make things a little more colourful on Blizz's black and white canvas they're painting. I just don't think this is really the right direction. IDK, interesting idea though.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
14910
Two problems.

Night Elves don't need this kind of catalyst to want to fight the Horde. Rather, this is way too far. The Night Elves would utterly want to kill everyone in the Horde. There'd be no reasoning with them. That is if the fight hadn't been taken out of them years ago...

And two, even if the Night Elves are allowed to take it that far, the rest of the Alliance isn't going to support them.
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90 Worgen Warlock
16740
They basically stated the Elune is a naaru. So why this alone wouldn't be enough? They were somewhat cheated/manipulated. Their nature goddess was in fact the same junk humans and draenei worship.

Why couldn't they bring back that natural aspect of the Night Elves but solely by themselves? I mean, no druidism, no worship of their goddess. They value the nature, even stronger than before, but as the belief of their people, as a matter of pride for what they were, honoring these things that indeed had value, but the belief alone. Not due a goddess there to tell them what to do, neither change it into a bunch of paladins.

I think this would be interesting. Althought, I doubt it will ever happen. Blizz should just open a church in the middle of their city...

Anyways, I don't mean the Night Elves need changes. The problem is exactly that Blizzard CHANGED them to being with. Everything that defined the Night Elves were butchered or twisted somehow. Wardens, their people, their strength, Tyrande, Elune, Druidism. All twisted to the point they are not part of the Night Elves anymore. Anything good of unique became neutral for the Horde's sake, remove or changed (Elune uz the light!1!1).

Now, there is only the race Night Elf left, hugging trees, getting stomped by the Horde and looking stupid.
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100 Human Warrior
7715
Impressive Ferlion.

But this idea does leave a big question I think you would need to answer before proceeding:

If the idea is for the Night Elves to be brought down to be rebuilt as society, what will they be rebuilt into? Will it be something better or worse?
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90 Night Elf Hunter
5360
I have some issues with your idea too Ferlion. Mainly being that you are having warlocks block the power of a goddess from all of her followers. All of them in those areas from what you said. That means warlocks now have the power to shut down any religion, including the Light. This gives warlocks a truly massive power boost that puts no limit on what they can do. What's next? Them co-opting and corrupting the power of the goddess and Light to their own ends?

No. I can't get behind that since it means the warlocks would now have found a way to literally control who has access to holy/divine magic.

Edit: I realized you put Hyjal on the list of places carpet bombed with the red mist. That act would bring every Ancient into the war against the Horde (and orcs) and severely piss off Cenarius and Ysera. Cenarius since it's his mother that's been cut off and it's an assault on Hyjal, lands Cenarius does still care greatly about, and Ysera since it's affecting Hyjal. It would probably bring the reds in on the fight on the Night elves side. Not to mention that if what you said happened and the Night elves were truly seriously pissed off enough to resume blood sacrifices, they'd want to kill -every- single orc and every warlock they could get their hands on. Horde or Alliance, they'd try to make sure that no warlock was able to recreate what the Horde warlocks did. Which means kill. Them. All. And they'd be completely justified in doing so.
Edited by Kynrind on 11/17/2012 6:50 AM PST
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90 Night Elf Rogue
11905
Honestly, not a massive fan of the idea. You can get a lot of this from different methods instead of outright splitting the Night Elves from Elune. In fact, outright 'killing' Elune probably wouldn't have the effect you're describing. Without hope the will to fight crumbles, even if it is for that act of revenge. We might see Sentinels rally in that last moment, but priestesses? The civilians? No. We'd see the Tyrande of the End Time instance, lost and without her goddess.

Furthermore the 'rebuilding' of the Night Elves, the 'dark magic', isn't entirely needed. I agree, if Blizzard wanted to do a 'waning of the elves' story, this would be an okay idea with some tweaks, but the end result would essentially remove several cores of the Night Elf race and replace them with... well little substance. Those gaps you created are essentially just filled with lore and cultural norms from other races, specifically the Trolls, Orcs and Blood Elves. It dilutes the Night Elves and while it may make them stronger, its effectively amputating the wrong limbs and attaching old, tired body parts to replace them.

I do want the Night Elves to go back to a more fierce and powerful depiction, to be independant and to pull away from the Alliance. But to dredge up pre-sundering level Arcana? First, we already established that the Blood Elves have progressed magic in ways far more devastating and effective than the Highborne's magic. The only reason the pre-sundering magic was stronger was because of the Well. Second, it'd basically result in the Night Elves losing a major element in place of, as mentioned above, Blood Elf and Orc parallels. You'd be turning the Highborne into Orc Warlocks and/or Blood Elf magisters. It loses that unique outlook, that unique feel that Night Elves are the only race that mistrusts mages still.

Splitting the Night Elves from Elune may not be the idea. But to wound her may be just as effective. To have Elune be called down or forced out or, one way or another, the Orcs scar her, would be just as powerful. IT would allow the Night Elves to feel rage, but also to rally because there is hope for Elune's return. Sacrifices, reclaiming of Moonwells, etc. All could be done to help her recover, without it being some pitiful attempt to revive a dead god.

Heck, it could end up bringing Maiev out of hiding. It'd get Tyrande to recomission the Wardens and put herself back on that tiger. It may put the Night Elves on the war path. The Elves are fierce enough as is, they don't need Elune to die... they just need to be written in a way that shows their ferocity.
Edited by Melyria on 11/17/2012 6:40 AM PST
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90 Night Elf Hunter
5360
I almost forgot that if the clergy of Elune lost their power, the humans and Draenei would be there in an instant trying to show the Night elves true power and try to convert them to the Light. Realistically, they'd not hesitate. Especially if their Light worked and Elune's didn't.
Edited by Kynrind on 11/17/2012 6:57 AM PST
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90 Night Elf Rogue
11905
That's another issue, with a loss of Elune you have to justify how Night Elf priests still exist.

Broken don't have priests, they have shamanism. So the only option would be for Night Elf priests to embrace some other diety or religion to continue. And they would have to because Blizzard isn't going to delete every Night Elf priest in existance.
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99 Worgen Warrior
10240
I'm 100% for it.

Good job Ferlion an may Blizz read this.
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99 Worgen Warrior
10240
11/16/2012 10:05 PMPosted by Ferlion
After Elune's "death", the highborn come into play. They bring in the darker magics. They bring in arcane magics the likes of which hasn't been seen in 10,000 years. Magics that decimated the Troll empires.


Yes..... yes...... YES!!!

The arcane powers that destroyed the two greatest empires of our world!

Let the arcane flow through you!
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90 Night Elf Hunter
0
Its an interesting idea, but thats about where it stops.

You claim the night elves would stop caring about the Alliance. Alright, fine. But don't half-!@# it. Make new night elves start off neutral, or even hated. To even be allowed in Alliance lands, they would have to prove themselves. Make existing night elves get cursed and spit at in other Alliance cities. Make them feel unwelcome and unwanted, much like the Forsaken are. Make them feel the weight of their betrayal.

Does that make this event night elf only? Do Horde players participate? Do they canononically die? Do they just witness it? Do they approve, or disapprove?

What part do the Highborne play? The Druids? The Sentinels?

Do night elves lose access to the priest class, as their source of power if gone?

Lots of logistics. It could work, but could is a hell of a word.
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Might be an interesting idea.

What if, alternatively, Elune abandons Tyrande and the Night Elves. Something along the lines of "you're second fiddle to the humans in the Alliance and can't fend off the orcs without help. You've grown too reliant on me. Prove yourselves to me and perhaps I'll return".
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90 Worgen Warlock
16740
Heck, it could end up bringing Maiev out of hiding. It'd get Tyrande to recomission the Wardens and put herself back on that tiger. It may put the Night Elves on the war path. The Elves are fierce enough as is, they don't need Elune to die... they just need to be written in a way that shows their ferocity.


Agreed.

Unfortunately, Blizzard seems to be only able to see certain extremes. When we ask them to show their strength, they show up with a 5.1 scenario resulting in Tyrande as an incompetent leader that just want to jump in the middle of the battle and hope to win.

Anyways, the OP idea is interesting, if handled well. I don't think Night Elves really required any of these huge changes if they were well treated. But, considering everything, it might be a chance to do something interesting and bring their pride back.

As long as they handle it well, and not by the end of the expansion show them "how wrong they are" and "how evil they became", only to redeem and make them understand how the other races are not that blind, etc...

Also, I think if their society had such a huge change, Illidan and Demon Hunters might be welcomed and seen as heroes.

11/17/2012 07:30 AMPosted by Melyria
That's another issue, with a loss of Elune you have to justify how Night Elf priests still exist.


I can picture 3 options:

They become Shadow Priests, abandoning the "Light" path and follow a darker one.
Another kind of priest, like the Light ones, changing their religion.
Maybe they don't even need to. If their powers aren't directly draw from Elune, they wouldn't lose their powers, only the focus of their belief. They could bring a vengeful concept to them, an "Avenger of Elune".
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86 Night Elf Rogue
12205
I apologize for being an ardent naysayer, but if the Night Elves aren't at rock bottom yet, they don't have far to go, and there is no reason blizzard would take them further down unless to make them even more the puppets of the alliance they have already become.

Instead of losing more, and even losing Elune, how about instead taking an entirely different approach. What if instead, Blizzard made an in depth inquiry into all of the elements that make them up as a people in their own context, like they really ought to do with every race? For the Night Elves, their history and recent past is varied and complicated, and needs to remain so. We do no justice to ourselves by attempting to water down, and make simplistic matters that are complex, nuanced, and subtle. And attaining to greater depth, nuance and subtlety is precisely where this game needs to go. Instead of remaining simple, even juvenile, it needs to grow in depth and breadth instead of rehashing the same old good guys gone bad garbage.

Understand what the Night Elves are, and the greater context that they fit into. Regardless of whether they were trolls or not (I guess they were), what they are now are a physical expression of the vision of their goddess Elune: A creation of hers and by virtue or consequence of that, a reflection of her nature. They are not alone in this respect; another of her creations, her progeny Cenarius from Malorne possesses qualities that at once bridge and narrow the gap between the Night Elves and the natural world, binding them to it in all its splendor and horror. The other Ancient Guardians in Hyjal as well as the closeness of the dragon Ysera adds a further complexity to the matter that should further bind the will of the Night Elves to that of the Ancient Guardians, and to Elune.

While affecting that combined will, spurred on by a beautifully graceful, yet simultaneously shadowy horror, the Night Elves and Ancients have generated a greatly varied force, including combatants who at once are shunned by the society that produced them and at times of need grant them command of their forces in order to ensure their victory and, failing that, their survival.

The central priesthood, out of necessity was trained in the use of arms, and soon proved to be among their most formidable troops and leaders. While saying this, it is important to recognize that this produced two extraordinary leaders, Tyrande and Maiev. Maiev was not merely a jailor, she was a priestess who for a time, replaced Tyrande as high Priestess while she was absent and thought lost. In addition, she possessed a great knowledge of arcane matters as well as magic, which is evidenced by her ability to read the Orcish runes left by Gul'dan in Suramar.

Blizzard has made a horrible failure in this character by beating her with the insanity bat, forgetting that she would have an indefatigable devotion to Elune. So, should we put her in the context of her role as a priestess manifested as assassin and jailor, her avatar of vengeance becomes much more interesting. This is something that is not undead, but a manifestation of fury in corporeal form. I like the idea of her being able to create this because of her closeness to Elune, which though it should come near the closeness of Tyrande to Elune, should still be second to it.

The High Priestess of Elune, I believe, has in the past been described as the avatar of Elune. Should we put the avatar of Vengeance in the back of our minds when looking at this, Tyrande becomes more interesting, especially as spiritual and military leader to the Night Elf element of this army of the Ancients. ---

You can see how complex this is getting, I intend to go on, but it is important to note that as you follow this complexity, the direction they need to be taken becomes all the more clear, and in that clarity I argue we will find that depriving the Night Elves of more should not even be a consideration. There is no need for an additional story hook, an exploration of their culture, history and context is more than enough to move their part in the story of Azeroth along while 1) satisfying the interests of those of us who would like to see them as they were in Warcraft III, 2) forcing the story to be told by writers who actually possess a skill in writing, 3) making our character's role with respect to stories involving them more nuanced whether we play a Night Elf or not, 4) forcing our character off of center stage, thereby allowing lore figures to be the real movers, shakers, and victors, which actually would add meaning to our victories which right now are vapid, with only shining toys to let us know we did anything at all 5) pressuring Blizzard to put more effort into telling Azeroth's story in game, and telling it well. I would like to add this effort should in no way be exclusive to the Night Elves, but should be extended to all races, for in truth the only way to see to it that the Night Elves are fleshed out well, is to make sure that the rest are equally so.

Moving on, it is important to step back and look at what has happened to the Night Elves since the Legion's defeat at Mount Hyjal. After Malfurion was called back to the Emerald Dream, a group of "Wayward Druids" proceeded to grow Teldrassil. Ostensibly Fandral Staghelm was their leader, and many Night Elves moved to this new tree. This was a division of the Night Elves which may well have dissolved the army of the Ancients. We can presuppose all day what fraction went to Teldrassil, and what stayed in Moonglade, Hyjal, and Silithus, but the important part is that they were divided, and so was their leadership. Tyrande's role in this would be much better told if it was clear that her loyalty was to the Cenarion Circle, but that part of her duty as military and spiritual leader demanded that she make Darnassus her base of operations, entrusting the leadership of places on Kalimdor to Remulos (who should answer to her as representation of his granny), Shandris, etc. As for Fandral Staghelm, his descent into madness should be brought on by more than grief over his son and the wish to remain immortal, but also by the pressure of attempting to lead the Night Elves in yet a new direction, now without the Ancients and dragons, while contending with Tyrande for leadership. The pressures on him should be retold as vast and varied, making his breakdown more of a course of inevitability, possibly even spurred on indirectly by Tyrande and the formidable espionage network employed by her through Shandris, and the Wardens through the Cenarion Circle.

What should then happen, with the return of the Ancient Guardians, the waking of Malfurion Stormrage, the Worgen presence in Teldrassil, and Fandral Staghelm's defection, little reason ought to be left for the Night Elves that followed Staghelm there to remain, and several reasons for them to return to Moonglade and Ashenvale. There should be no doubt that they would wish to live under the auspices and direct supervision of their past benefactors, patrons, teachers, and guides, but the reuniting of them and the Cenarion Circle would have a serious impact on the political landscape of Kalimdor, and no doubt the sudden influx of Night Elves from Teldrassil would strain their relations with Tauren and Troll druids. Once again the Night Elves would be reunited under the joint leadership of the Ancient Guardians and the priesthood of Elune, the reality of their desecrated forests and haunts would be brought to bear, and one need look no further as to where their revitalized fury would come from and that it would crash down on the Warsong Clan with devastating force.

This would also impact their relations with the rest of the Alliance. It seems that this would bind the Alliance races in Northern Kalimdor to them while distancing them from those of Eastern Kingdoms. The Draenei, knowing that they need to adapt to their new political landscape, but understanding that their allies are bound to divine and near divine forces would find that they have much to learn from them, and Velen's political motions would likely be geared toward a sharing of ways.

The Worgen, still suffering from the shock of their abruptly changed lifestyle, and being drawn to the presence of Goldrinn, would no doubt also fall under the purview of the other Ancients, who would move to guide them further. However, like the Draenei, moving from their island dwellings to Kalimdor might mean a sacrifice in autonomy they would not be willing to suffer. As a result of increased trade between the islands and the continent, the Worgen and Draenei strongholds would gain in strength and stability, especially if Nighthaven was given a port. As a point of reference, in the Middle Ages, sea trade in the Mediterranean was not slow, and sea trade in the Baltic was preferable to trade over land.

I will stop here, there is more to say, and greater depth to move into, and I hope that it is evidence enough to make crystal clear that no new story hook is needed, but only that the internal logic of the story, the implications of how events have unfolded so far, and that the impact of the events from the Legion's defeat at Mount Hyjal to the present are by no means simple, easily accounted for, nor should accounts about them be considered complete or final in any respect, but merely as perspectives told by individuals who are far from omniscient. It should be our lack of understanding of human and non-human cultures that should drive the story now, it has been dormant for far too long, and the game needs new life that will not be found by adding new things, but by delving deeper into the old.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
9060
The primary reason I disagree with this is the problem of implementation. If you had full and unrestricted control of the story, I'd say "why not"?

The problem is that you don't, and that if Blizzard takes up this suggestion, they will twist and pervert this to turn every single one of your objectives completely on its head. The Night Elves will either rush to the Alliance in complete despair, and Varian with the backing of the remaining ancients will do all of the work, or they'll embark on this massive campaign and fail miserably, which Blizzard will defend by saying that they needed room for their next playable race.

... and those are best case scenarios. You know as well as I that it can get MUCH worse.
Edited by Kyalin on 11/17/2012 3:04 PM PST
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11/17/2012 02:47 PMPosted by Ereshkigal
I apologize for being an ardent naysayer, but if the Night Elves aren't at rock bottom yet, they don't have far to go, and there is no reason blizzard would take them further down unless to make them even more the puppets of the alliance they have already become.


You people won't be happy until the night elves have not just seceded then singlehandedly destroyed the Alliance, the Horde, the Burning Legion, the Old Gods, and taken their place as the perfect warriors, will you?
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100 Night Elf Rogue
9060
11/17/2012 03:49 PMPosted by Drimka
I apologize for being an ardent naysayer, but if the Night Elves aren't at rock bottom yet, they don't have far to go, and there is no reason blizzard would take them further down unless to make them even more the puppets of the alliance they have already become.


You people won't be happy until the night elves have not just seceded then singlehandedly destroyed the Alliance, the Horde, the Burning Legion, the Old Gods, and taken their place as the perfect warriors, will you?


I could understand what you were saying here if not for the facts.

But the facts are that we are the furthest thing from even competent, let alone in a position where asking for better treatment would constitute anything even remotely close to that.

Stop trying to substitute ridicule for argument.
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90 Human Warrior
13525
11/17/2012 03:56 PMPosted by Kyalin


You people won't be happy until the night elves have not just seceded then singlehandedly destroyed the Alliance, the Horde, the Burning Legion, the Old Gods, and taken their place as the perfect warriors, will you?


I could understand what you were saying here if not for the facts.

But the facts are that we are the furthest thing from even competent, let alone in a position where asking for better treatment would constitute anything even remotely close to that.

Stop trying to substitute ridicule for argument.


While I agree his presentation was silly but honestly it's getting to the point of where it's annoying. With that said Ferlion should be praised for creativity ta that much. But conceptually I disagree with him.
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