Tyrande, Night Elves and You!

62 Orc Death Knight
6255
11/18/2012 01:05 AMPosted by Talrend
Having the Night Elves in the position of doing nothing is preferable to having them do something.


Can't let you do that Kyalin.

The Night Elves will continue to get Lore because they're an important race, much like the Humans, Orcs, and Forsaken are.

I'd be pretty happy to have Draenei, Gnomes, or Worgen steal some of that limelight but even I have to accept that they're not pinnacle races like the ones mentioned above.


This is sad but true Draenei and Gnomes get the shaft when it comes to lore. Part of me thought blizz would try develop some draenei lore during this war but it seems they are taking the bench for another expac cause they are too "science fictioney".
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100 Night Elf Rogue
10935
11/18/2012 01:05 AMPosted by Talrend
Having the Night Elves in the position of doing nothing is preferable to having them do something.


Can't let you do that Kyalin.

The Night Elves will continue to get Lore because they're an important race, much like the Humans, Orcs, and Forsaken are.

I'd be pretty happy to have Draenei, Gnomes, or Worgen steal some of that limelight but even I have to accept that they're not pinnacle races like the ones mentioned above.


The Forsaken have skated by without lore so far in MOP, and on what basis are you calling the Night Elves important at this point?
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86 Worgen Warrior
10845


Can't let you do that Kyalin.

The Night Elves will continue to get Lore because they're an important race, much like the Humans, Orcs, and Forsaken are.

I'd be pretty happy to have Draenei, Gnomes, or Worgen steal some of that limelight but even I have to accept that they're not pinnacle races like the ones mentioned above.


The Forsaken have skated by without lore so far in MOP, and on what basis are you calling the Night Elves important at this point?


Forsaken will get their time soon, Kosak can't go one interview without fawning over his next plans for Sylvanas and her crew.

What makes you think Night Elves aren't important? Is it not enough that they arguably have a richer history than humans among other races? Is it not enough that they hold the strongest druidic influence over any other race? Is it not enough that the Gilneans can't thank them enough for their kindness? Is it not enough that they get more books about them than any other race and at least have something going on in every expansion?

The Night Elven lore has some serious problems, I agree. But to say they're not important is stretching it I think.
Edited by Talrend on 11/18/2012 6:27 AM PST
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100 Night Elf Hunter
6150
11/18/2012 01:05 AMPosted by Talrend
Having the Night Elves in the position of doing nothing is preferable to having them do something.


Can't let you do that Kyalin.

The Night Elves will continue to get Lore because they're an important race, much like the Humans, Orcs, and Forsaken are.

I'd be pretty happy to have Draenei, Gnomes, or Worgen steal some of that limelight but even I have to accept that they're not pinnacle races like the ones mentioned above.


The problem is, aside from a single 'Rawr Rawr' moment in Cataclysm where the Shatterspear were curb stomped, all of the lore given to the Night elves has been bad. I mean really bad. Admittedly the Night elves were not in the best of places before Cata with little lore advancement, but since Cata, it's been almost all summarily terrible lore. It's ripped and gutted the night elven theme to the point that are a joke in game and with Blizzard, and Blizzard admits this! It would have been better if the Night elves hadn't gotten ANY lore in Cata and MoP than the load of steaming crap Blizz has dumped on the Night elves and Night elven fans.
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100 Night Elf Hunter
6150
Forsaken will get their time soon, Kosak can't go one interview without fawning over his next plans for Sylvanas and her crew.

What makes you think Night Elves aren't important? Is it not enough that they arguably have a richer history than humans among other races? Is it not enough that they hold the strongest druidic influence over any other race? Is it not enough that the Gilneans can't thank them enough for their kindness? Is it not enough that they get more books about them than any other race and at least have something going on in every expansion?

The Night Elven lore has some serious problems, I agree. But to say they're not important is stretching it I think.


What history? Blizzard is constantly retconning it so nothing stays the same. The Night elves went from mysterious nocturnal humanoids that were changed by the Well of Eternity, to magically changed trollls that were basically slaves to the Zandalari. And only got their freedom when the Zandalari sent troops to aid the Mogu.

They went from being one of the main resistance forces in the WotA to needing help from the pandaren and tauren and a time traveling Rhonin and Friends in the War.

They've gone from being the perfect warriors in WC3 with many allies that helped defend their lands, to a literal joke who's allies are ones that were only helping them because the Night elves were the only strong power around, and the world was in serious danger. Now those allies won't talk to them, Cenarius sees the orcs as being all good now (completely ignoring everything the orcs have done in Ashenvale and Azshara) and the only thing that matters is Hyjal. They've even lost the Cenarion Circle to the point it's leadership doesn't even CARE what the Horde does as long as they can be friends ( /spits).

And even worse, Blizzard has pushed Malfurion as the Night elven leader. That's shown by Tyrande's short story (Mal is in the spot light as much or more than she is) and in almost every picture that shows the Night elf leader, Malfurion is there, taking up more room than Tyrande.

It's gotten bad enough the Night elves have needed the humans to save them multiple times now, despite the fact the Night elves are the third more numerous race in the Alliance and the most powerful one on Kaliamdor. EVERYTHING is being swept aside to let the humans take center stage, as well as the left and right sides of the stage.
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86 Night Elf Rogue
12205
To Kyalin,

Unfortunately, you are likely right that Blizzard will warp every suggestion I made to something hardly tolerable, and you are probably right that the predicament of the Night Elves could get much worse. Yet, the problem still remains that Blizzard needs to move towards depth, nuance, and complexity instead of the direction they are taking. Anything less than that simply should not be accepted under any circumstances.

To Drimka and to a lesser degree, Lilendae,
Had you read my post in full, you would realize the complete irrelevance of your reply as I made very clear that the problem was a result of a reductionist and simplistic approach to the difference in cultures, and people, which then necessitates that should Blizzard change their course and move toward greater depth on behalf of one race, they would need to expend the resources to do the same to every other. I don't think it is impossible, and I could care less if it was. Simply put, if this is not the only direction Blizzard can go to fix the problems they have made with every race, it is by far the best, and where it applies to the Night Elves, it could hardly be more apparent.

As a possible remedy to the problem of losing long posts before you can send them, you might try writing them in a word processor and then copy and paste them. Do you really think that a windbag like me could pontificate in this manner on the Blizzard forum page?

Ondor,

Thank you for your insight. While I think that the matter is more complicated than either of us has described, this is much more worthwhile to discuss than many of the other comments I have received. Where I disagree with you starts with the Azerothian goddess part, and Velen not really caring for such. It seems fitting to me that Velen would be fairly interested in Elune especially if he turned out to be wrong about her. Would it really be a characteristic of a wise individual, despite being right most of the time, to be dismissive of something he finds out he is wrong about? Aside from that, most draenei settlements in Azeroth are on Kalimdor, under the auspices of the Night Elves.

In addition, I don't think that packing up and leaving would be so easy, but rather, that the writing in of the Draenei making that suggestion is not something to take seriously, but to be seen as one writer's addled incompetence. Same with Anduin crying, if he can take an ax to the face, he can handle a cold shoulder from Velen. While bad writing shouldn't be ignored, we are by no means obligated to accept it, especially when we find repeatedly that we need to approach the canonical nature of the novels and everything they say with more than just a grain of salt.

And also, thank you for the comment about Trolls. I agree as Blizzard's stating of such a simplistic origin is the very kind of problem that needs to be nipped in the bud.

Mordsteich,
I don't know if you had the patience to read my sermon of a post, but I am interested in your thoughts, despite the fact that I believe you are asking for too little.

Kynrind,
I agree with all you have said, with the possible exception of the Shatterspear. Here Blizzard single-handedly swept away another element that could only provide depth to the game by the fact of their mere existence. They could have at least done this genocidal act some lip service to justice by having a suggestion that Garrosh knew that the campaign in Darkshore would fail, and that he used the opportunity to weaken political opponents in Orgimmar by sending troops associated with them to convince the Shatterspear to mount an offense and join them, while extirpating another potential threat, all the while stretching and dividing Night Elven forces. Now that would be an interesting use of intrigue straight out of Sun Tsu.

Ferlion,

you might want to get some coffee or a sandwich before reading this...

My most nagging issue with your idea is that it does nothing to pressure Blizzard to write the story better. Most of the problems that your idea seeks to resolve would be more effectively solved by writers who are capable of going into depth, and are able to deviate from the third person omniscient perspective, which none of Blizzard's writers are able to do. Their current quorum of writers is simply not capable of giving expression to a character's manner of thinking and solving problems except by stating what they are thinking outright. They are unable to express anything but the simplest of emotions and perspectives, which they lay on the lore figures with heavy hands.

The problem at its heart is not that the Night Elves need to be redone, but that they, and every other race, needs to be given depth. This is where I agree whole-heartedly with you when you say "The Night Elves need to be so different than how they have appeared in WoW that fierce battles and cool scenes just won't do the trick anymore." Once again, should the story be retold with depth, context, and a rigorous exploration of their history, where their history (like much of our ancient past) is uncertain even after weighing all available evidence, we would find ourselves with a story that challenges our perspectives more sharply. The problem with writing from the third person omniscient view, is that if the writer is lazy, clumsy, or otherwise lacking skill, much of the mystery that provides the backbone of monstrous races (and yes, Night Elves, Dwarves, Gnomes, etc are all monsters though maybe not in a pejorative sense) is lost, and whatever expression of our nature they embody is trivialized, and mind-numbing rather than compelling or profound. Creating something that is profound, that challenges and changes the audience or participant, if it wasn't the goal of every good writer, certainly was the result.

By asking for a story hook where they lose yet another of their defining characteristics, and putting them at risk of being pigeon-holed even further into the role of incompetent, purple skinned, pointy-eared humans, all for the purpose of giving them back the allure they once possessed, I think you are asking for too little, and at the risk of yet even more disappointing consequences.

Your ideas I think would gain a lot if you look at what the Night Elves started with, and look at the broad implications of events pertaining to them from the past both recent and old. You have shown in past that you follow it somewhat closely, so I am not calling your knowledge into question. In addition, we would gain a lot if we looked at accounts of their history the way we might regard the histories of Herodotus, or whatever blurry history may be gleaned from the Icelandic sagas. We cannot accept them as wholesale truth; we know that they are biased, and will belittle one person or race to build another up, that they have their idols like any good zealot at the complete ignorance and lack of curiosity towards the enemies of their favorites. But unlike Herodotus and Snorri Sturlusson, Blizzard's storytellers are not blessed with a great command of their language nor are they subtle, or even perceptive for that matter. As a result, I think we would be better off if some of us exercised our hands at a retelling of the history of Azeroth and its denizens, with accounts aimed at exploring the depths of the races and cultures we are presented with, not some dramatic narrative that badly tells of the pain and self loathing of Sylvanas, or Tyrande's 10,000 year desire for a baby, or another laughable coming of age story.

I do not accept that just because we can't have Shakespeare, Virgil, Hemmingway or Thoreau, that we should therefore settle for whatever noxious bodily secretions, wrapped in words, that Blizzard decides to lob in our direction. I think we would be right to reject it as the refuse that it is, and stop pretending that it is anything else.

Do not sow the earth with salt, and don't let our discussions be fouled by accepting what some second rate writer has told us to think. If you are going to be so bold as to suggest a story line, push for a deepening and broadening of perspective on a large scale. If the story isn't in some way traumatizing for the reader or participant, it is probably not worth experiencing. Aim to make something that either forces someone to love your story or hate it, but allow nothing in between. The worst fear of any good writer or playwright worth the pen they write with is that their audience will be unaffected by the time they reach the end. And if their genius doesn't come easy to them, they labor on it, revise, rewrite, and obsess over it until there is no stone unturned, no blade of grass or grain of sand that doesn't strive to yank the reader or participant out of their increasingly bulbous haunches, so that they have to look at their own bones and infirmities to find their hidden strength and peculiar genius, whose wailing voice has been long drowned out by the boring madness brought on by routine and complacence.
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91 Night Elf Druid
9065
Ohh,trust me. If I were writing from scratch, it would be more involved, in depth, and everything else.

Problem is, I'm aiming for what Blizzard is capable of.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
10935
To Kyalin,

Unfortunately, you are likely right that Blizzard will warp every suggestion I made to something hardly tolerable, and you are probably right that the predicament of the Night Elves could get much worse. Yet, the problem still remains that Blizzard needs to move towards depth, nuance, and complexity instead of the direction they are taking. Anything less than that simply should not be accepted under any circumstances.


Those demands are never going to be fulfilled though, and more and more they've shown that they have a problem with the Night Elves in general. The only demands that we should be making are retcons. Complete and total retcons with no tolerance for replacement. Suggestions for improvements, reforges, reboots, or for new lore are going to completely backfire, and have a strong trend of backfiring already.

I've said this before, Blizzard takes a Norm the Genie approach. They take your suggestion, and fulfill it in the worst possible manner. Suggestions like this one open the door for such abuse. Instead, we should be firmly shutting it - as well as we can.
Edited by Kyalin on 11/18/2012 4:09 PM PST
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90 Human Warrior
13525
To Kyalin,

Unfortunately, you are likely right that Blizzard will warp every suggestion I made to something hardly tolerable, and you are probably right that the predicament of the Night Elves could get much worse. Yet, the problem still remains that Blizzard needs to move towards depth, nuance, and complexity instead of the direction they are taking. Anything less than that simply should not be accepted under any circumstances.


Those demands are never going to be fulfilled though, and more and more they've shown that they have a problem with the Night Elves in general. The only demands that we should be making are retcons. Complete and total retcons with no tolerance for replacement. Suggestions for improvements, reforges, reboots, or for new lore are going to completely backfire, and have a strong trend of backfiring already.

I've said this before, Blizzard takes a Norm the Genie approach. They take your suggestion, and fulfill it in the worst possible manner. Suggestions like this one open the door for such abuse. Instead, we should be firmly shutting it - as well as we can.


Yeah and that's as helpful as insulting Ghostcrawler on his twitter. You may think staying quiet is good but...saying nothing is the much worse scenario.
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100 Human Warrior
7715
Ohh,trust me. If I were writing from scratch, it would be more involved, in depth, and everything else.

Problem is, I'm aiming for what Blizzard is capable of.

So, a 1950's era comic book? Or would that be too harsh?

To be completely serious for a moment (this is rare for me) I respectfully disagree that the Night Elves are beyond saving thematically speaking. As you yourself have stated many times Ferlion the problem is not the story it is the presentation and the interpretation.

Tyrande is a figure with a significant amount experience as a political, military, and religous leader. In the up coming patch (spoilers) she speaks impulsively in her dialogue with Varian. This is different than her charging in headlong without care. It is what she wants and I think expects Varian to do. Considering that by the time of this Senario Tyrande has almost certainly learned about the attack on Darnassus while she is away she would want to leave quickly to return to her people.

Malfurion, there is no other way to describe what was done with him, was a missed opertunity by Blizzard. Here they had a figure that could have brought players into why the Night Elves were so formidable because he could have brought their druidic power back into the spotlight for the Night Elves. Instead, he was used as neutral figure who did not seem to care about his people on an individual level because of the greater good. Was Ragnaros a threat, absolutely. Was that reason enough to not at the very least appear angry with the Horde, no.

In my opinion there is a way to save both characters and would not even require a revamp. Introduce a senario that takes place in Ashenvale. Have Malfurion attempt to protect a Night Elven settlement from an attack (preferably the Horde but another force would work). During the defense Malfurion is wounded, his druids being overwhelmed. Then Tyrande rides in at the head of a Sentinel army and clears out the attackers. Add in a moment where she tells him to hush just for laughs :).
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100 Night Elf Rogue
10935
Yeah and that's as helpful as insulting Ghostcrawler on his twitter. You may think staying quiet is good but...saying nothing is the much worse scenario.


No it isn't. We've seen what happens when we make suggestions. They run wild with them and find some way to turn them on their head.
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100 Human Warrior
7715
11/18/2012 04:09 PMPosted by Kyalin
I've said this before, Blizzard takes a Norm the Genie approach. They take your suggestion, and fulfill it in the worst possible manner. Suggestions like this one open the door for such abuse. Instead, we should be firmly shutting it - as well as we can.

An ancient Roman saying, (sorry I don't remember the latin):

"When the gods wish to punish us, they answer our prayers."
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90 Human Warrior
13525
No it isn't. We've seen what happens when we make suggestions. They run wild with them and find some way to turn them on their head.


Not all the time. Just shutting up won't help. You would just be contributing to the problem as Blizzard supposedly is.
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100 Human Warrior
7715
11/18/2012 04:14 PMPosted by Kyalin
Yeah and that's as helpful as insulting Ghostcrawler on his twitter. You may think staying quiet is good but...saying nothing is the much worse scenario.


No it isn't. We've seen what happens when we make suggestions. They run wild with them and find some way to turn them on their head.

To be fair, what Blizz did with the Night Elves in Karasong Wilds, pre-patch, was actually a pretty interesting story in my opinion.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
10935


No it isn't. We've seen what happens when we make suggestions. They run wild with them and find some way to turn them on their head.

To be fair, what Blizz did with the Night Elves in Karasong Wilds, pre-patch, was actually a pretty interesting story in my opinion.


I can agree on that. They did pirates of the Caribbean better than Pirates of the Caribbean, which surprised me, but I largely think that it's because they weren't actually trying (however, that may be a good thing).

The characters in that questline didn't really act like elves in particular, they acted like people, and the result was refreshing and welcome. In the end, I don't know, but if this is the formula for a good night elf story, Blizzard needs to dredge up the people who worked on this and tell them to do the same with other parts.

I'd be more content with retcons though. Lots and lots of retcons.
Edited by Kyalin on 11/18/2012 4:28 PM PST
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90 Human Warrior
13525

To be fair, what Blizz did with the Night Elves in Karasong Wilds, pre-patch, was actually a pretty interesting story in my opinion.


I can agree on that. They did pirates of the Caribbean better than Pirates of the Caribbean, which surprised me, but I largely think that it's because they weren't actually trying.

The characters in that questline didn't really act like elves in particular, they acted like people, and the result was refreshing and welcome. In the end, I don't know, but if this is the formula for a good night elf story, Blizzard needs to dredge up the people who worked on this and tell them to do the same with other parts.

I'd be more content with retcons though. Lots and lots of retcons.


So would I but not Night Elves in particular.
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90 Orc Warrior
10290
Expecting the NE to be as strong as they were in WC3 is unrealistic.

They were their own seperate faction in WC3, so they had to be strong enough to compete with the other 3. (and both the Horde and the Alliance had to be weakened from WC2)

In WOW, they are PART of a faction instead of standing alone, so they had to be downsized accordingly, which meant removing or nerfing their most uber of allies.

That being said, they do need more of a role in the current Alliance. But honestly the same can be said for just about any other race that isn't human or orc.
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90 Night Elf Druid
11655
11/18/2012 07:56 PMPosted by Lochnar
Expecting the NE to be as strong as they were in WC3 is unrealistic.


Understandably so, I think what they really need is simply better characterization. They fight pretty well and Ashenvale shows it, they just need to be more interesting when they go about it.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
10935
Expecting the NE to be as strong as they were in WC3 is unrealistic.


Honestly, I'd like to know why.

The Night Elves weren't particularly overpowered in Warcraft III, they were even difficult to play. They simply held their own as a faction, just as the Alliance, the Horde, and the Undead did. Three of those factions have retained their prowess in that regard, one hasn't.

What is so special about the Night Elves that they should be impaired while the others aren't?
Edited by Kyalin on 11/19/2012 7:44 AM PST
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100 Draenei Warrior
18480
Has anyone mentioned yet that Elune's a Naaru? I'd just like to put that forward. A Naaru. Because that's what she is.

Elu'ne.
Edited by Kaioon on 11/19/2012 8:54 AM PST
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