(Spoilers) Did Aethas betray the Kirin Tor?

89 Undead Warlock
5785
I was looking at Blizzplanet, and found some Aethas quotes:

Archmage Aethas Sunreaver: Silvermoon has been allies with Dalaran for over 2000 years. It is not a friendship we should idly toss aside at the whim of our ‘esteemed’ Warchief Garrosh.

Archmage Aethas Sunreaver: Lor’themar wants a status update? Or is it his master Garrosh?

You should tell them both that this experiment is a waste of time. The mogu drew power by enslaving the living essence of other creatures. Is this something our Warchief should be dabbling in?

This is the same road Kael’thas Sunstrider once walked, and it nearly destroyed our people. Why are we taking orders from someone who would have us walk down this road again?

Archmage Aethas Sunreaver: Enough Rommath! The Sin’dorei must be free from the yoke of the Horde! (Aethas proceeds to be corrupted by Sha. In Silvermoon, by the way, meaning Sha can leave Pandaria)

I'm supposed to believe this man, or his followers as a faction, betrayed the Kirin Tor?
Edited by Ximothy on 11/16/2012 9:35 PM PST
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90 Human Warrior
13525
Never heard of this..but if the Sha can leave Pandaria.....we're in trouble.
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90 Night Elf Priest
16525
I was looking at Blizzplanet, and found some Aethas quotes:

Archmage Aethas Sunreaver: Silvermoon has been allies with Dalaran for over 2000 years. It is not a friendship we should idly toss aside at the whim of our ‘esteemed’ Warchief Garrosh.

Archmage Aethas Sunreaver: Lor’themar wants a status update? Or is it his master Garrosh?

You should tell them both that this experiment is a waste of time. The mogu drew power by enslaving the living essence of other creatures. Is this something our Warchief should be dabbling in?

This is the same road Kael’thas Sunstrider once walked, and it nearly destroyed our people. Why are we taking orders from someone who would have us walk down this road again?

Archmage Aethas Sunreaver: Enough Rommath! The Sin’dorei must be free from the yoke of the Horde! (Aethas proceeds to be corrupted by Sha. In Silvermoon, by the way, meaning Sha can leave Pandaria)

I'm supposed to believe this man, or his followers as a faction, betrayed the Kirin Tor?


You're certainly supposed to believe his faction did. Because it DID. Sunreaver agents ARE guilty of betraying the Kirin Tor.

Its the second time, by the way. Aethas may be an upstanding guy, but if he's unable to police his members, the organisation needs to be taken down. The guilty executed, the innocents forced to ceaze their operations.
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I've never been convinced that Aethas was behind the Sunreavers going rogue. (My bet is on Rommath.) Still waiting for a smoking gun.

But in the end, if he can't control his own people, it doesn't matter from Jaina's standpoint.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
11450
He's Thrall. A nice guy with some ideals, but has a corrupt order under his nose.
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89 Undead Warlock
5785
11/16/2012 09:40 PMPosted by Resileaf
You're certainly supposed to believe his faction did. Because it DID. Sunreaver agents ARE guilty of betraying the Kirin Tor.


You miss understood my comment. I didn't say his followers couldn't, but his followers as a Faction, meaning the vast majority. The Sunreavers are people who left Silvermoon to the Kirin Tor.

11/16/2012 09:40 PMPosted by Resileaf
Its the second time, by the way. Aethas may be an upstanding guy, but if he's unable to police his members, the organisation needs to be taken down. The guilty executed, the innocents forced to ceaze their operations.


The guilty to be killed, yes, but any who resist arrest for a crime they didn't do? or people who helped innocents escape? Do they deserve to be killed by accosiation?
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90 Human Warrior
13525
11/16/2012 09:43 PMPosted by Ximothy
The guilty to be killed, yes, but any who resist arrest for a crime they didn't do? or people who helped innocents escape? Do they deserve to be killed by accosiation?


No of course not, but it would be hard to tell if they're guilty or not. Truth Serum may have to be used.
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85 Worgen Warrior
4910

You're certainly supposed to believe his faction did. Because it DID. Sunreaver agents ARE guilty of betraying the Kirin Tor.

Its the second time, by the way. Aethas may be an upstanding guy, but if he's unable to police his members, the organisation needs to be taken down. The guilty executed, the innocents forced to ceaze their operations.


Is that cannon yet? Or are you speculating?

We know that Thalen went in for full support of the Horde.

But last I heard, Jaina was just speculating that the Sunreavers helped steal the Bell out of Darnassus, and Aethas flat out denies it.

Anything new on the PTR?
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90 Night Elf Priest
16525

You're certainly supposed to believe his faction did. Because it DID. Sunreaver agents ARE guilty of betraying the Kirin Tor.

Its the second time, by the way. Aethas may be an upstanding guy, but if he's unable to police his members, the organisation needs to be taken down. The guilty executed, the innocents forced to ceaze their operations.


Is that cannon yet? Or are you speculating?

We know that Thalen went in for full support of the Horde.

But last I heard, Jaina was just speculating that the Sunreavers helped steal the Bell out of Darnassus, and Aethas flat out denies it.

Anything new on the PTR?


I do believe that the information from quest givers and various NPCs from both sides is that Sunreaver agents used Dalaran to create portals to Darnassus.
The Horde questgiver in particular makes it a certainty.
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85 Worgen Warrior
4910


I do believe that the information from quest givers and various NPCs from both sides is that Sunreaver agents used Dalaran to create portals to Darnassus.
The Horde questgiver in particular makes it a certainty.


Can you supply links, names, locations, etc?

I'd like to check it out on the PTR.
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25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
11/16/2012 09:34 PMPosted by Ximothy
I'm supposed to believe this man, or his followers as a faction, betrayed the Kirin Tor?


Yes. We have quests where the Sunreavers literally SAY that they were involved in disobeying Jaina, attacking Darnassus, and trying to cover it up. The Sunreavers admit it, the Horde admit it, and trying to frame the Blood Elves as victims here is nonsense.

From the quest "Insertion"

"Furthermore, the Sunreavers of Dalaran are risking their neutrality by assisting the Horde in this operation."

And from the quest "Victorious Return"

"The portal by my side will return you safely to Domination Point. I will return behind you; I must clean up our tracks a bit before we leave, so that Proudmoore doesn't discover our involvement."

From "The Situation in Dalaran"

The night elves learned that the Divine Bell was stolen. This much we anticipated.

However, they've also found out that the "neutral" Sunreavers of Dalaran were complicit. Now, we've got a situation.


The Sunreavers betrayed the Kirin Tor. This is fact.
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The Aethas quotes don't disprove that he had anything to do with the two incidents of the Sunreavers abusing the Kirin Tor under Horde orders, if anything, it encourages the perspective that Aethas knows what's going on, and doesn't like it one bit.

11/16/2012 09:34 PMPosted by Ximothy
Archmage Aethas Sunreaver: Silvermoon has been allies with Dalaran for over 2000 years. It is not a friendship we should idly toss aside at the whim of our ‘esteemed’ Warchief Garrosh.


He's helpless to do anything about it. Keeping quiet he at least has a chance of preserving the Sunreavers in Dalaran and not betraying his people. Unfortunately it backfires. I wonder how events would have gone if he defected to the Kirin Tor and told Jaina his worries.

The Darnassus incident, which is already up on ptr, is a pretty concentrated effort by multiple Sunreaver mages using Dalaran and desperately trying to avoid Jaina's detection. What's more, the object stolen during the raid is what -Aethas has been brought to Silvermoon to study-. While studying this object, he protests that Dalaran and Silvermoon's connection isn't something to idly discard, and the folly of Garrosh's and Kael'thas' actions.

What's more, back in Tides of War, Aethas was the deciding vote to allow the Kirin Tor to aid Theramore, with a very thin argument to support that position, and Songweaver was a -personal- selection.

Aethas is aware of all this. He just can't do a thing about it without betraying his people. He has to follow the same marching orders as the Sin'dorei. He wants to break the yoke, and has a pretty firm position in that regard, but there are political realities that his people face. Lor'themar brings up the same points later on in that event where he brings up 'reconsidering old alliances'.

Their hands are tied, and unfortunately before their attempts to negotiate bear any fruit, Jaina discovers what happens and the ensuing chaos in Dalaran drives the blood elves closer to Garrosh. It's rather ingenious on Garrosh's part. Force the blood elves to reluctantly break their old ties by abusing their position, then use the resulting fallout to solidify their loyalty.

That's also why Varian seems so unreasonably ticked off at Jaina (her actions were reasonable considering), it ties into the Temple of the Red Crane scenario where he sniffs out the trap from what seems like obvious circumstances. He's started seeing the layer that Garrosh is working on, and is determined to undermine him on it. While Jaina struck a blow against the Horde and brought an ally to the Alliance, it wasn't the total victory a bit more patience would have secured.

Edit: You can also see how Aethas was so easily influenced by the Sha in spite of the generally lauded willpower and personal control of archmages if you consider that he's being forced to do a ton of things he -really doesn't want to be doing-.
Edited by Vesran on 11/17/2012 1:24 AM PST
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90 Worgen Warlock
16740
11/17/2012 01:20 AMPosted by Vesran
That's also why Varian seems so unreasonably ticked off at Jaina (her actions were reasonable considering), it ties into the Temple of the Red Crane scenario where he sniffs out the trap from what seems like obvious circumstances. He's started seeing the layer that Garrosh is working on, and is determined to undermine him on it. While Jaina struck a blow against the Horde and brought an ally to the Alliance, it wasn't the total victory a bit more patience would have secured.


Unfortunately, Varian has become the new Mary Sue. Cata was Thrall, now it's him. We will have to deal with characters looking stupid no matter how right they might be or getting twisted so Varian can like some perfect leader.

Which always fails in any story. There are situations there's nothing but terrible options. Varian will mysteriously and miraculously solve everything with his idealism, while everyone choices will be portrayed as wrong somehow.
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89 Undead Warlock
5785
Hmm, hearing these reasons has given me a slightly better view on the Dalaran events.

The Sha matter, however, has me concerned, as one of the major reasons people dismissed the idea of Garrosh being posseded by Sha was because it couldn't leave Pandaria. But now we know they can
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Vesran, this is a plausible reading of events, but I don't see how Jaina could have waited. She had to take decisive action based on what she knew, and I assume she didn't know that Varian was negotiating.

So if Varian wants to get pissed off, he can start with the guy in the mirror. Jaina can't read his mind. (She's good, but not that good.) If he wants to coordinate his diplomatic efforts with her, he needs to lead the way and bring her in on the plan.

I'm actually kind of irritated with him now. He's doing so many other things right.
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90 Human Warlock
12930
Vesran, this is a plausible reading of events, but I don't see how Jaina could have waited. She had to take decisive action based on what she knew, and I assume she didn't know that Varian was negotiating.

So if Varian wants to get pissed off, he can start with the guy in the mirror. Jaina can't read his mind. (She's good, but not that good.) If he wants to coordinate his diplomatic efforts with her, he needs to lead the way and bring her in on the plan.

I'm actually kind of irritated with him now. He's doing so many other things right.


Yeah, he's really begining to come across as TOO perfect. They tried that with Thrall and are still dealing with the fallout.
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90 Draenei Shaman
11990
11/17/2012 03:54 AMPosted by Deerde
So if Varian wants to get pissed off, he can start with the guy in the mirror. Jaina can't read his mind. (She's good, but not that good.) If he wants to coordinate his diplomatic efforts with her, he needs to lead the way and bring her in on the plan.


That arguement works both ways. How the heck could Varian have known Jaina would suddenly do what she did? Also I would assume the negotiations were pretty secret, you know to prevent Garrosh from learning about it.
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25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
11/17/2012 04:56 AMPosted by Zerde
That arguement works both ways. How the heck could Varian have known Jaina would suddenly do what she did?


Why is Varian still going "Oh, we should be friends with the Blood Elves" when they attacked an Alliance city?
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90 Draenei Shaman
11990
11/17/2012 05:01 AMPosted by Vyrin
Why is Varian still going "Oh, we should be friends with the Blood Elves" when they attacked an Alliance city?


Presumable because he knows who his enemy truly is, Garrosh. And getting the Blood elves to rejoin the Alliance could easily tip the war in the Alliance favor. Besides, if Jaina herself was willing to continue to ally with the Kirin Tor Blood elves(at least before all this happened) I dont see any true reason not to do the same.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
17875
Kel'Thezud and the many many Kirin Tor mages that followed him have done more damage than this Sunreaver faction has to Dalaran. They could be a little more understanding about rogue members.
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