Tanks - No party damage now

90 Pandaren Monk
14540
You can have the tank I had in the last Gate of the Setting Sun I did.

I think Brewmasters come in two flavors only: Incredibly Squishy, Solid as a Rock.


Yeah. Is it too much to ask for some middle ground?


This is Tiriel, btw. For some reason, I'm showing that I'm posting as Tiriel, but I'm posting as Hyunae. o_O Weird.

And yes, I would like a middle ground. This is feeling strongly like DKs at the start of Wrath. Either I was weeping because I couldn't heal them fast enough, or they never took damage. Ever. And I felt like a third wheel. xD
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90 Draenei Priest
9355

If you want Blizzard to make every fight have incidental, unavoidable damage, then ask for that.


What little there is now is being healed by self heals, party heals and absorbs, usually from a tank.

Does Guard not feel ridiculously overpowered to anyone else? Stop hogging my PrOM!
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90 Human Paladin
5685
From a healer standpoint I agree with you. From a tank standpoint, I see your point but I disagree. Just like using your mad skills to save a wipe is fun as a healer, being invincible through good play is a big part of what makes being a tank fun.

Raising the LCD upwards would diminish that, just like having powerful heals detracts from the satisfaction of seeing everybody slowly tick up from HOTs and knowing you are doing it right, as opposed to just doing whatever and there being no real bonus or consequence to doing it right or wrong.

If nothing else its not the self-sustainability of tanks thats the problem, its pally and monk's ability to blanket heal the group for free. DKs are still invincible, but they can't keep everyone alive on their own. Warriors aren't really capable of either.
Edited by Kamine on 11/16/2012 8:20 PM PST
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90 Draenei Priest
9355
11/16/2012 08:19 PMPosted by Kamine
From a healer standpoint I agree with you. From a tank standpoint, I see your point but I disagree. Just like using your mad skills to save a wipe is fun as a healer, being invincible through good play is a big part of what makes being a tank fun.


So that's what I (only semi tongue-in-cheek) said in the first post. If I want to absorb and reverse damage on party members, I should roll a tank?
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90 Pandaren Monk
14540
11/16/2012 08:24 PMPosted by Dominish
From a healer standpoint I agree with you. From a tank standpoint, I see your point but I disagree. Just like using your mad skills to save a wipe is fun as a healer, being invincible through good play is a big part of what makes being a tank fun.


So that's what I (only semi tongue-in-cheek) said in the first post. If I want to absorb and reverse damage on party members, I should roll a tank?


At least if you roll a tank, you'll know how to be considerate of your healers!
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90 Pandaren Shaman
8455
How is it surprising that once you out gear content it becomes trivial??? Every healer has the ability to do DPS now in one way or another so if you're bored just do that to pass the time.

I mean at this point are you really doing Heroics for the fun factor or are you doing them to get your daily Valor reward?
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90 Human Priest
7530
Step 1: Go Disc
Step 2: crush the dps in the meters
Step 3: dps=hps so you are a dps healer.
Step 4: Faster dungeon, things die quicker, and you get your rewards sooner.
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One big reason I like monk healing is because I'm dpsing regardless of what kind of damage is going around. I agree though that most tanks are too self sufficient. Either healing themselves way too much or like my warrior mitigating the damage down to nothing. My healer mentioned getting bored with my warrior tanking and that I should be soloing heroics. I thought that was an exaggeration until I solo'd Jade Temple.

When I heal DKs they tend to spike like crazy but they self heal even before I react. The only time I feel needed is on the few high damage encounters in Shado-Pan or when I end up with clown trying to tank in pvp gear. But at least I can out dps the lesser geared people and not feel like a fifth wheel.
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90 Night Elf Druid
11915
I ended up picked up the talent Dream of Cenarius because there was a lot of downtime between necessary healing. Much of the time I run around pretending I'm a boomkin and when I need to throw a heal it's 30% more powerful, basically giving me more time to dps.

For a priest I'd suggest using a Disc spec in 5mans. You'll always have something to cast when your damage spells result in healing.

Blizz did after all give us healers the free 15% spell hit rating. Why not use it? You can always stop attacking and go pure healing when party damage gets high.
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90 Orc Death Knight
tys
9350
I'd have to strongly disagree about the idea of tanks being too self-sufficient. It gives an incentive for tanks to improve and play better beyond the traditional "hold aggro" duty.

The problem is not so much that the tanks were designed to use active mitigation (with I am sure will get you a "working as intended" reply) as much as it is that the dungeons are too easy. There's just not enough damage going through to heal really.

The other consideration is that you simply may have out-geared the content.

And yes, you should roll a tank. It will give you some insights into how tanking works, how active mitigation works, and how you could optimize your healing around that.
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90 Pandaren Monk
6730
You should consider yourself lucky (and stop whining) or I must get the most crappiest groups EVAAAR. I am constantly having to spam heal DPS standing in bad stuff, I have to practically spam heals on all my squishy tanks. On recount, the person taking the LEAST amount of damage is myself. It took the group 5 wipes to do Scarlet halls last time I did it because people couldn't get away from that tornado thingy. That was the day I quit doing heroics on this toon lol

Either stop overgearing content and move on to something more challenging or suffer in silence on your "bad" taking-no-damage tanks.
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90 Night Elf Druid
5485
11/16/2012 07:45 PMPosted by Dominish
Valid point, but, instead of tuning dungeons differently, they can make the difference between a good and bad tank not so large, by changing the classes.


They tried that. It meant tanking didn't take any skill -- your gear pretty much tanked for you -- and tanking was boring. That's the whole reason for the AM revolution -- after the changes to threat, there was literally nothing else for tanks to be involved in.

The downside of AM is that if you don't bother to use it, you're going to take more damage than intended, but that's kind of the point of having a role require skill: without skill, you don't perform as well!

So that's where you get the squishy monks. They just don't know what the F they're doing. (Yeah, I know, big words from someone whose own monk alt is under 20. Well, the existence of the solid monks proves that the squishy ones could be doing better, right?)

It's possible that paladin and monk tanks have too much party healing, though. (Druids don't, in my experience, but that may be the shapeshift mechanic as much as anything else. There are some heals I theoretically could use, but dropping bear form to cast them would be a very bad idea in lots of situations.) There are good reasons for tanks to have some self-heals, just like there are good reasons for dps to have some self-heals, but tanks (or dps for that matter) shouldn't be good at healing *other* players -- if you want to heal other players, you should have to play a healer.
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90 Undead Priest
13595
In my experience, healers classes have been strongly de-emphasized in MoP. Even in 5.0...

- Challenge modes did not require (and were impeded by) a healer

- Boss fights in 5-mans did not always require a healer depending on the tank and party make up

- Healers brought very little or no value to many comps in competitive PvP.

- Raid bosses required fewer healers than ever (as compared to TBC, Wrath, and Cataclysm).

I'm not sure what Blizzard's plans are for healing classes. They clearly believed that they were overvalued and too strong in previous expansions. In the current content, they appear to be optional for at least some situations and are only absolutely required for raiding at the present time.
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90 Draenei Priest
9370
Heroics are meant to be easy this expansion. They're a stepping stone to LFR.

Challenge Modes are now intended to fill the niche of "difficult 5 man content".

I suggest you find your Smite key.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
10200
DPS in your down time. I was pulling 35k on the first boss in Shado Pam Monastary, and was top dps to boot. The undergeared peeps need the extra help and it speeds up your dungeon a bit. If dpsing 2-3rd place and healing everyone is too much for you, work on it a bit, and try to maximize that effort. After all, not many heals to be made anyways in there once your gear starts to show :p
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90 Orc Shaman
15810
I wouldn't say challenge modes were impeded by a healer. We definitely used a healer on all the trash pulls and there is no way a guidance or two would be able to keep everyone up when you, for instance, pull 3 skeles + first boss in scholo in challenge mode, or all mages in the second room + boss.

You just have to adapt to pulling a ton and using massive cc (not things like hex etc) in challenge modes and healers are certainly viable, except maybe if your goal is a rank 1 time. Even then, it depends on how you do the pulls.

of course when it comes to bosses, the one thing that I did find annoying was being forced to sometimes respec since there is no damage on some boss fights. But, those were far and few between (4th boss in scholo comes to mind... and a few others).

But healers definitely do NOT make challenge modes worse unless if you are doing slow pulls, no chain pulls, not pulling trash onto bosses, etc.
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90 Tauren Druid
10455
I agree that 5-man content doesn't require enough healing.

Content should be "difficult" to heal because it requires you to use the tools at your disposal to do your job. Content shouldn't be "difficult" because you don't have the tools to do your job (as was the case with healing in early cata).

When it becomes "easy" to heal, it should be because your heals have become more powerful relative to the incoming damage. It shouldn't become "easy" to heal because there is no damage to heal in the first place. With the former, there is still enough damage going around to kill people, but the healer is able to easily deal with it. With the later, the healer isn't even required at all.

Challenge modes are stupid. Gear progression, and content becoming easier as a result, is part of the core experience of an MMO. I have zero interest in doing a dungeon that artificially nerfs my gear and has the exact same difficulty level for the entire expansion. Not to mention that running dungeons at an artificially fast pace is simply... annoying. I already got enough of that at the beginning of MoP when tanks thought they were making the dungeon run go faster by facepulling the next set of trash right after a boss when I'm still sitting at <25% mana.

But agreed that it is just part of a larger assault on healers. Blizzard's vision for the future is that everyone plays DPS and some also happen to have a healing offspec. Content is now only designed with DPS in mind since "everyone is DPS".
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90 Worgen Druid
7990
11/16/2012 03:38 PMPosted by Dominish
Another reason that you can't just respec since you aren't needed to heal.


EXACTLY why I'm Holy Priest. One flick of a Chakra I go from DPS to Heal and vica-versa.

I also roll with a Blood DK everytime so makes things easier
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90 Night Elf Druid
5485
I already got enough of that at the beginning of MoP when tanks thought they were making the dungeon run go faster by facepulling the next set of trash right after a boss when I'm still sitting at <25% mana.


If the tank is pulling, you're lucky. The real speedrun groups have all the dps running off in different directions.
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90 Goblin Shaman
14300
12/22/2012 03:08 PMPosted by Sanctimonius
- Challenge modes did not require (and were impeded by) a healer


You either needed a blood DK or a prot paladin with a dps that has good off-spec healing to pull that off. Neither was required for gold.

12/22/2012 03:08 PMPosted by Sanctimonius
- Boss fights in 5-mans did not always require a healer depending on the tank and party make up


Bosses have never been the hard part of 5-mans. Ever.

12/22/2012 03:08 PMPosted by Sanctimonius
- Healers brought very little or no value to many comps in competitive PvP.


Which is exactly why blizzard put in a 15% (now 30%) healing debuff baseline for everyone, because healers did nothing.

12/22/2012 03:08 PMPosted by Sanctimonius
- Raid bosses required fewer healers than ever (as compared to TBC, Wrath, and Cataclysm).


Every high-end guild has dropped healers during progression to meet dps checks going as far back as Vanilla. The only fights where healers have never been dropped were fights where there was significant damage and the enrage wasn't an issue. This is not a new phenomena.

I'm not sure what Blizzard's plans are for healing classes. They clearly believed that they were overvalued and too strong in previous expansions. In the current content, they appear to be optional for at least some situations and are only absolutely required for raiding at the present time.


Aside from cata heroics on release, if you had a geared tank you didn't need a healer in post-BC heroics. And yeah healers have been brought down in relative power since wrath, but that's cause healing in wrath was fundamentally broken.
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