How to reward 25 man raids for "effort"

90 Orc Warrior
10970
This was posted on MMO-Champion by Marston:

I just finished reading the interview MMO-Champion had with Ion Hazzikostas. You can find it here:

http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/...iew-BWC-Recaps

That being said, this is the paragraph I am referring to:

Q: More and more people seem to be losing interest in 25-man raiding, do you plan to make it a little more interesting in the future or are you happy with the current system?
A: We love 25 player raiding. We also love 10 player raiding. We have people on the team that do both, depending on who they are. We aren't really satisfied with the state of 25 player raiding right now. Our goal when we made the raid changes at the start of Cataclysm that unified the 10 and 25 player lockouts was to let players choose the raid size that they preferred and make it a fair choice.

At the time, we were responding to feedback from many players who preferred 10 player raiding and felt pressured to do 25s because they offered such better loot. The reality, something we failed to properly account for, is the logistical burdens of maintaining a 25 player roster. Those burdens are borne almost exclusively by the officers, raid leaders, and guild leaders of those groups. Those pressures are such that it tends to cause those groups to splinter into 10s. Before there was the carrot of 25s give you the best loot in the game, which was enough to get guilds to push through those stresses by recruiting more or making it work.

Now it is easy to say, well, we only have 21 people on at raid time, let's just do 10 mans instead of cancelling the raid. Then you go down the road to transitioning to a 10 player guild. It isn't a reflection of what our players want, but what is simplest for the guild leadership. We are looking at trying to better incentivize 25s, recognizing that for it to be a fair choice, there needs to be something to compensate for that additional logistical burden.

A suggestion I have:
Let bosses in 25 man mode drop an additional chest. This chest contains randomly one or several of the following things:
- Buff Food (several of the 300 one as of Mists)
- Feasts (several)
- Pattern and Recipies (only 1 and nothing else)
- Trash Epics (only 1 and nothing else)
- Potions (several)
- Flasks (several)
- Much Gold (Like 100-200 per raider)

These are basically the things raiders need and have a high usage. You wipe, you need new food. You wiped for an hour, you need a new flask. You died several times you have to repair. You get the picture. This loot would allow the guild to reduce farming time or to give their raiders from time to time a chunk of potions/flasks/buff food. If additional loot drops it should be something from the trash as that is probably the loot most would be missing (because of the low drop chance).

Yeah, pretty much this. I think flasks and food etc. would be the best way to reward the additional logistics. The loot is just another suggestion (and as said, nothing else would drop and it would be a random trash item).

Thoughts on this?
Edited by Strugglebus on 11/18/2012 3:36 PM PST
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90 Gnome Warlock
11655
I like the idea. Those aren't huge power gains over the 10m, but they help make up for the extra time/logistical efforts of 25m.

Simply a good, logical approach.
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90 Worgen Mage
20350
I think we'll be seeing a lot of those items in the new 'gold bag', which will have more than just gold. They've akin-ed it to the satchel of exotic mysteries.
Edited by Digerati on 11/18/2012 4:21 PM PST
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90 Worgen Druid
4810
More trash epics would be a pretty nice bandaid, but that just encourages trash farming raids which is kinda lame =(

The other items are pretty immaterial, and would probably benefit 10 man guilds more than they would 25s if they were put in place tbh. Yes they could be an incentive, but unless it's a massive amount of all the things you listed nobody is leaving 10 man raiding for a 25 man.

Here's some suggestions of what I would like to see:

- Higher VP per boss - this applies to both 10 and 25s, but I think 25's could be slightly higher than 10s after both are increased
- Crafting materials - have 2-5 blood spirits drop per boss. You could have lower drop rates for 10's. Something more valuable then flasks, feasts, patterns, etc.
- Higher mount drop rates - Say 3-1 as opposed to the 2-1 in DS
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90 Worgen Mage
20350
11/18/2012 04:30 PMPosted by Duboomchikin
- Higher mount drop rates - Say 3-1 as opposed to the 2-1 in DS


And higher drop rates of the rare ones too! Though it's hard to tell the difference between 3% instead of 1% even if they implemented it. I was surprised they never adjusted the Rag mount to more than 1 drop in 25.
Edited by Digerati on 11/18/2012 4:40 PM PST
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90 Worgen Mage
15160

Yeah, pretty much this. I think flasks and food etc. would be the best way to reward the additional logistics. The loot is just another suggestion (and as said, nothing else would drop and it would be a random trash item).

Thoughts on this?


Unfortunately as someone who co-runs a 25 man guild, none of those things you have provided mean anything. We expect all members to bring their buff food for progression bosses (300) and we provide it as a guild for others (275).

Most patterns are recipes are already below the gear that is dropping. I believe we have received over 20 Blood Spirits and yet have only used 6 because no body wants the gear.

Trash epics are nice, but again rarely required and quickly outgeared.

It is true that these things would be "nice" but they would be akin to having the higher valor points in Cata for 25 man which was also "nice" but even Blizzard said was ineffectual as it did not have the desired effect.

- Higher VP per boss - this applies to both 10 and 25s, but I think 25's could be slightly higher than 10s after both are increased


Read last paragraph. In fact, this is the Blue quote:

Our goal remains to make 25s slightly more rewarding to help offset the logistical challenges inherit in 25-player raiding, but we didn’t think extra Valor was a strong incentive for those players since they tend to run out of uses for Valor pretty quickly, which will be even more true in 4.3.


- Crafting materials - have 2-5 blood spirits drop per boss. You could have lower drop rates for 10's. Something more valuable then flasks, feasts, patterns, etc.


Which less than 2 weeks into running HoF we have still found no use for Blood Spirits already. This would be pointless as well.

- Higher mount drop rates - Say 3-1 as opposed to the 2-1 in DS


This is nice but this is just a cosmetic reward and plays no part in progression. In DS we had so many of those mounts that we not only got all 36 raiders mounts, we started giving them away. Having an extra mount drop each week would make no difference.

The problem with suggestions like these is that people try very hard for the suggestion to have no impact whatsoever on 10 man, except what you do to one will always have some effect on the other. If having these options implemented was such a good idea, they would have already done so - and indeed they have insofar as Valor points were concerned and they removed it. The issue is finding incentive enough that it balances appropriately and speaking from my own 25 man experience, nothing suggested in this thread would make one iota of difference.

If you want to start making a difference, the first step is in the achievements. I would personally like to slap the developer that decided that the two raid size achievements should be combined. This is particularly true of the server first achievements which are the most imbalanced.

Additionally, people want to track progress against the guilds they are competing. Blizzard needs to implement the armory so that guilds are tracked as either one size or the other - not lumped together as "the same". Additionally, sites like WoWprogress should drop the "combined" rankings. I see no benefit whatsoever in comparing 10 man guilds to 25 mans. All it does is cause animosity - and that animosity could be greatly avoided if the two sizes were not constantly treated as one entity.

I am honestly not certain whether it is possible to properly incentivize 25 mans without having a negative impact on the 10 mans, but to be frank, nothing could compare to the negative impact that has already occurred on 25 mans and nothing Blizzard will do will ever kill 10 mans short of removing them as an option. See 10 mans have the benefit of being considerably easier for new guilds to sink their teeth into, and even in WotLK when they were not even, 100's of thousands of players were still raiding them.

Essentially, and TLDR, if you want to assist in the raid size dilema, they need to not be treated like they are the same raids. Treat each one like their own entity, give them their own achievements, their own rewards - heck I would even go so far as to say give them two difference tier designs. This would give incentive for the 25 mans to still downsize to get transmog gear and give 10 man raiders incentive to try and put teams together to run a 25 man transmog run - and maybe they might find they like 25 mans.
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Im fairly sure what its going to be is 25 man raids are going to come half upgraded.

with valor upgrades coming into the system, half a valor upgrade is 4 points, so it will be 4 points higher than 10 man, but it will count it as partially upgraded.

This will mean all gear will have the same top end, but 25 mans will gear faster.

The problem is if it gives actual better loot, 10 mans go the way of the dinosaur and fast. Every 10 man that will transition has to kill at least 2 other guilds and more likely 4 or 5 as they cherry pick the best from alot of guilds rather than just a full merge.

This will kill alot of 10 mans and put alot of people out of raiding.

And I tend to think souring people on normal mode raiding is probably absolutly the last thing blizzard wants to do.
Edited by Sarosha on 11/18/2012 5:11 PM PST
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90 Dwarf Death Knight
17655
Well, this topic was civil, then Sarosha had to make it 10v25.
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90 Troll Rogue
15455
What would happen if 25 man NORMAL modes were tuned easier then 10 man normals, with the same rewards?

There don't seem to be many normal 25 man guilds around anymore (none on my server), would it actually encourage 10 mans to try and upgrade to 25s or would it just mean more 25 man pugs/alt runs and gkps which may not necessarily be a bad thing.
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3 Undead Priest
0
11/18/2012 05:07 PMPosted by Sarosha
The problem is if it gives actual better loot, 10 mans go the way of the dinosaur and fast. Every 10 man that will transition has to kill at least 2 other guilds and more likely 4 or 5 as they cherry pick the best from alot of guilds rather than just a full merge.


25 mans dying = 15 people out in the dust per guild death because of no where to go. After all, guilds are cutting down, not recruiting.

While 10 mans "dying" = looking for more people to fill up, therefore it's the complete opposite of leaving people out. It's giving people more guild options to go to.

25 mans are better for "business" (the word you casuals like to say) in the long run.
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11/18/2012 05:12 PMPosted by Postonforums
Well, this topic was civil, then Sarosha had to make it 10v25.


It always comes down to 10v25

It cant be anything else.

if one is easier or more rewarding, everyone flocks to that format.

Right now 10 man is much easier, and 25 isnt more rewarding enough.

IT HAS TO come down to 10v25.

The whole point is to pull people out of 10's into 25, instead of 10's pulling people out of 25.
Edited by Sarosha on 11/18/2012 5:36 PM PST
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11/18/2012 05:19 PMPosted by Gorea
The problem is if it gives actual better loot, 10 mans go the way of the dinosaur and fast. Every 10 man that will transition has to kill at least 2 other guilds and more likely 4 or 5 as they cherry pick the best from alot of guilds rather than just a full merge.


25 mans dying = 15 people out in the dust per guild death because of no where to go. After all, guilds are cutting down, not recruiting.

While 10 mans "dying" = looking for more people to fill up, therefore it's the complete opposite of leaving people out. It's giving people more guild options to go to.

25 mans are better for "business" (the word you casuals like to say) in the long run.


That doesnt really happen and you know it.

Those 15 people out of work could easily form at least 1 10 man, and even 10's need reserves.
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90 Draenei Warrior
14675
Right now 10 man is much easier, and 25 isnt more rewarding enough.


Whut?
Edited by Torudo on 11/18/2012 5:41 PM PST
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11/18/2012 05:41 PMPosted by Torudo
Right now 10 man is much easier, and 25 isnt more rewarding enough.


Whut?


10 mans are logistically and sometimes actually easier.

25's do not offer sufficient extra reward to overcome this gap.

Therefore raids are moving from 25 to 10 over time.

If they off too much incentive to 25 the movement goes the other way
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90 Worgen Mage
15160
The problem is if it gives actual better loot, 10 mans go the way of the dinosaur and fast. Every 10 man that will transition has to kill at least 2 other guilds and more likely 4 or 5 as they cherry pick the best from alot of guilds rather than just a full merge.

This will kill alot of 10 mans and put alot of people out of raiding.

And I tend to think souring people on normal mode raiding is probably absolutly the last thing blizzard wants to do.


The thing is, 10 mans will not die, not in the same way 25 man did. As I pointed out previously, 100's of thousands of players still raided in 10 man format even when the loot was not equal. It was the accessable raid content and it was well used. If Blizzard were to change the item levels ala Chinese and Korean realms in 5.1, 10 man's won't die, it will just irritate those players who care more about item levels than the size of the raid they play in.

I am not saying that people being irritated is an invalid point, it is not. No one likes to be put out. But lets not kid ourselves that 10 mans are going to "die" in even remotely a similar sense to the 25 man debacle that was Cataclysm.

I also have to point out that you say that you are afraid this will kick a lot of people out of raiding. Are you aware, that the change to 10 man equals in the first place kicked out half the raiding population? In the order of ~ half a million raiders in end game normal and heroics. I do not see many people upset over that change. It is interesting that this issue only seems to rear it's head when they are on the possible negative end of this situation. I do not seem to recall any happy 10 man raiders lamenting the loss of raiding population caused by giving those 10 man raiders this option.

This is not directed at anyone in particular in this thread by I find it sadly ironic that some people who are so adamant in giving people their option and being "Fair" to everyone also condones the actions that caused some of worst raiding situations in the 4 years I have been playing the game. Talk about selective blindness.
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90 Orc Shaman
13750
11/18/2012 04:58 PMPosted by Virtutis
It is true that these things would be "nice" but they would be akin to having the higher valor points in Cata for 25 man which was also "nice" but even Blizzard said was ineffectual as it did not have the desired effect.


That was before the plan to add an upgrade system that basically forces players to Valor cap every week to take full advantage. More Valor from raids would be quite welcome now, I should think.
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90 Worgen Mage
15160
11/18/2012 06:19 PMPosted by Hyjinx
It is true that these things would be "nice" but they would be akin to having the higher valor points in Cata for 25 man which was also "nice" but even Blizzard said was ineffectual as it did not have the desired effect.


That was before the plan to add an upgrade system that basically forces players to Valor cap every week to take full advantage. More Valor from raids would be quite welcome now, I should think.


That is true however there is still a hard cap each week and this can be gained regardless of extra valor offered on one particular raid format. It would fall in the same category as dropping flasks or food buffs - it will help but not be all that important and certainly would not be a factor in helping 25 man numbers.

Remember the hurdle that has to be jumped is new players starting new 25 man guilds. Put yourself in the shoes of a person who wants to start a guild and raid. When you look at the current options and see the benefits and costs of starting a 10 man or a 25 man guild, the idea of finding enough people to raid 25's is incredibly daunting. There is a psychological barrier to overcome here inherent to the the size of the raid, and one that would exist no matter what the two sizes of the raid are.

I can say from my point of view, if I was starting a guild and wanting to get into raids and the choice of doing 25 man gave me some food, flasks and a few more valor points in a week, I think my reaction would be to s!@#$%^ and inwardly say "fudge that" and start a 10 man guild. The barrier to creating new players starting new 25 man guilds is large and not easily overcome. It is why I do not believe it is possible to overcome it and properly balance the choice without detriment to the 10 man format and I also personally believe that Blizzard has now worked that out. I also think this is why it is taking them so long to figure a solution to the problem because they are trying to balance the effect it will have on 10 mans and to mitigate the impact of changes.

I would not be surprised in the least if the Korean/Chinese changes to raid lockouts get implemented for the next tier of content in 5.2 I have the feeling that the 5.1 changes for them are essentially tests to see how it works out before announcing anything to us.
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90 Orc Shaman
HC
16485
11/18/2012 05:50 PMPosted by Sarosha


Whut?


10 mans are logistically and sometimes actually easier.

25's do not offer sufficient extra reward to overcome this gap.

Therefore raids are moving from 25 to 10 over time.

If they off too much incentive to 25 the movement goes the other way


Except the logistical burden is put on the officers+ and not the actual raiders.
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90 Undead Warlock
21755
I think an interesting erxperiment would be to make the vanity rewards of raiding (titles and mounts) only drop in twenty-five mans. It has zero impact on player progression and offers nothing but cosmetic (and often highly deisred) changes to one's toons.

I think more mount drops for twenty-five man raiding actually devalued the Heroic DS drakes since they were everywhere by the time the buff hit 10% even. We not only got them for every raider, most primary and secondary alts, sold a couple dozen, but left them to rot frequently. By throttling the drop rate down the cool factor (and thus reward value) of those mounts would go up. Do one drop per twenty-five man kill and either just remove them from ten man or make them a very low (~1%) drop.
Edited by Yukio on 11/18/2012 7:07 PM PST
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90 Troll Hunter
11370
Even if the forums can't talk about 25s without going ballistic, I'm happy that Blizzard has started talking about it.
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