How to reward 25 man raids for "effort"

100 Draenei Paladin
11505
11/18/2012 07:14 PMPosted by Asthas
The pie in the sky solution would be to somehow lessen the logistical burden of running a 25s. Its going to be difficult to find a reward system that is effective without making 25s "real" raiding.


Right now, most fights are harder on 25man, with higher DPS/HPS requirements and more opportunities for 1-2 people to screw up and kill everyone. So, when recruiting for a 25man guild, you not only need more people, you need better people (with better computers to handle the extra spell effects). The only way to really make 25s logistically easier is to make them fundamentally easier, kinda the opposite to making 25s "real" raiding.

Doing this would not have the desired effect. Most of the people who prefer 25s want the feeling of "real" raiding, and the people who prefer 10s want the ease. You'd just be flip-flopping the 2 groups.

Sadly, I can't think of a solution that provides 25s with enough incentive to make them worthwhile beyond "I like 25s better" but lets 10s stay competitive, relevant, and fairly equal. The closest I can think of is *COUGH* Oh god, just threw up in my mouth some *COUGH* Sarosha's suggestion that 25s drop "pre-upgraded" gear.
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100 Dwarf Warrior
17075
11/18/2012 05:07 PMPosted by Sarosha
And I tend to think souring people on normal mode raiding is probably absolutly the last thing blizzard wants to do.

The best time my casual friends had vis-a-vis raiding was towards the end of WotLK when I'd do progression in ICC with my 25M guild and run the more liberally tuned 10M normal+heroic with them. The smaller format actually lent itself nicely to a more casual atmosphere. None of them play anymore (well, one is still currently subbed for a another week or two, as he wanted to check out MoP launch).
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Make 25 man HEROIC bosses drop pre-upgraded gear, 1/2 (4 ilvls). 25 man raiders will spend 750 less valor to upgrade each BiS item.

Why not normal 25 man?

1- The gear you really want to maximize (spend your Valor) is your BiS gear. In general, BiS gear drop from heroics.
2- If you are in 25 man guild that don´t wanna progress through heroic, you shouldn´t have any advantage over 10 man.
3- On the first heroic bosses, 25 man will not have any advantage over 10 man, and will have a slightly advantage over time, but 4 ilvl in some pieces will not kill the bossses for them, but when farming heroic, they will maximize their gear much faster then 10 man, thats the incentive.
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90 Orc Shaman
13750
11/19/2012 07:35 AMPosted by Avatar
Make 25 man HEROIC bosses drop pre-upgraded gear, 1/2 (4 ilvls). 25 man raiders will spend 750 less valor to upgrade each BiS item.


Problem with that is the majority of 25 man guilds probably aren't doing Heroic content in the first place.
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100 Night Elf Warrior
17635
11/19/2012 08:02 AMPosted by Hyjinx
Make 25 man HEROIC bosses drop pre-upgraded gear, 1/2 (4 ilvls). 25 man raiders will spend 750 less valor to upgrade each BiS item.


Problem with that is the majority of 25 man guilds probably aren't doing Heroic content in the first place.


Yea, and even if it were true that the majority of 25 man guilds are doing heroic content, that is even less reason to incentivize just heroic raiders. The more hardcore raids tend to have easier times recruiting. The casual 25 is probably the most difficult raid to form at this time, and probably needs the most help.

Larger servers have significantly less trouble supporting some 25 mans by virtue of a large recruitment pool. As much as they are reluctant to do it (and for good reason), cross server raiding/recruitment may be the only way to help 25s without trying to specifically tear people away from 10s to run 25s instead. That old raid finder window was basically useless, but I think it can be retooled into an effective recruitment tool, especially for more casual raids. It just needs more functionality, like inspecting, filtering, the ability for people to have characters visible in it when they aren't online, messaging. While in the end, its up to the players to come together to make a raid, the game could facilitate that endeavor more than it does now.
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11/19/2012 08:02 AMPosted by Hyjinx
Make 25 man HEROIC bosses drop pre-upgraded gear, 1/2 (4 ilvls). 25 man raiders will spend 750 less valor to upgrade each BiS item.


Problem with that is the majority of 25 man guilds probably aren't doing Heroic content in the first place.


Reward people for being bad is not a good move. If they are not doing heroics, they don´t deserve better gear to progress through it. 4/6 Bosses on MSV heroic can be done by most HC good guilds with 470 ilvl.

Giving too much advantage, ex: making normal drop upgraded gear, will only discredit 25 man heroic kills.
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90 Orc Warrior
10970


Problem with that is the majority of 25 man guilds probably aren't doing Heroic content in the first place.


Reward people for being bad is not a good move. If they are not doing heroics, they don´t deserve better gear to progress through it. 4/6 Bosses on MSV heroic can be done by most HC good guilds with 470 ilvl.

Giving too much advantage, ex: making normal drop upgraded gear, will only discredit 25 man heroic kills.


What you re saying is irrelevant to the situation as hand. Please don't start moving this thread off the topic. Normal mode and heroic progression 25 man guilds both need assistance.

Also another thing to note, 10 and 25 mans in general do not conisder themselves as competition. Players are now separating them into 2 different brackets once again
Edited by Strugglebus on 11/19/2012 8:24 AM PST
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Reward people for being bad is not a good move. If they are not doing heroics, they don´t deserve better gear to progress through it. 4/6 Bosses on MSV heroic can be done by most HC good guilds with 470 ilvl.

Giving too much advantage, ex: making normal drop upgraded gear, will only discredit 25 man heroic kills.


What you re saying is irrelevant to the situation as hand. Please don't start moving this thread off the topic. Normal mode and heroic progression 25 man guilds both need assistance.

Also another thing to note, 10 and 25 mans in general do not consider themselves as competition. Players are now separating them into 2 different brackets once again


Making 25 man normal drop already upgraded gear is not a good idea, this gear will not be upgraded for most people that are doing heroic modes, they having 4ilvls more will only make blizzard tune 25 man heroic bosses for more 4 ilvls in mind. Blizzard wanna make this bosses a challenge for TOP guilds in the world, and to do so, they need to tune them for their gear.

Making 25 man heroics drop 1/2 upgraded gear will make only the pieces that matter to drop already upgraded, BiS pieces, that people wanna to maximize before the next patch and the only real effect will be gearing up faster for the next content, the average ilvl of the raid will not be too different from a 10 man guild.
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90 Orc Shaman
13750
11/19/2012 08:15 AMPosted by Avatar


Problem with that is the majority of 25 man guilds probably aren't doing Heroic content in the first place.


Reward people for being bad is not a good move. If they are not doing heroics, they don´t deserve better gear to progress through it. 4/6 Bosses on MSV heroic can be done by most HC good guilds with 470 ilvl.

Giving too much advantage, ex: making normal drop upgraded gear, will only discredit 25 man heroic kills.


That's a different topic. The goal here is to reverse the decline of 25 raiding in general, not reward 25 man Heroic raiders specifically.
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Reward people for being bad is not a good move. If they are not doing heroics, they don´t deserve better gear to progress through it. 4/6 Bosses on MSV heroic can be done by most HC good guilds with 470 ilvl.

Giving too much advantage, ex: making normal drop upgraded gear, will only discredit 25 man heroic kills.


That's a different topic. The goal here is to reverse the decline of 25 raiding in general, not reward 25 man Heroic raiders specifically.


For 25 man normal, make bosses drop more gold, more valor (valor cap still 1k for every1), transmog, whatever. The real bait is too make people raid 25 man in mind that they can gear up faster then 10 man with the heroic bosses dropping already upgraded gear.

Make 25 man raids X-realm, to make recruit and replace players easier.

This changes are enough to make players that really want to come back to 25 man, to do it. I just think that the numbers of players that want to be in big raids, are not as many as people expect.
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100 Human Warrior
8785
In the end there is only 1 solution, blizzard knows what it is and has talked about it in the past. The only solution is to have 1 Raid Size.

We should be arguing what is the best Raid Size overall balancing in and out of game logistics.

25s are not the right size and 10s are not either as in general the requirements for encounter design do not follow the 1:1:3 ratio that Blizzard set up with a 5 person group size and limiting normal/heroic/challenge mode dungeons to 1 group.

Therefore 15 and 20 man is the smallest where this works. Some 10 man encounters in the past have required up to 3 tanks or normally 3 healers while learning, gearing and initial progression occurs.

3:3:9 = 15
4:4:12 = 20

Allowing for fringe cases where you could need 3-4 tanks for a large council fight or some other reason will give much greater flexibility than the 2:2:6 that we have in 10 mans if we follow the 1:1:3 ratio.
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In the end there is only 1 solution, blizzard knows what it is and has talked about it in the past. The only solution is to have 1 Raid Size.

We should be arguing what is the best Raid Size overall balancing in and out of game logistics.

25s are not the right size and 10s are not either as in general the requirements for encounter design do not follow the 1:1:3 ratio that Blizzard set up with a 5 person group size and limiting normal/heroic/challenge mode dungeons to 1 group.

Therefore 15 and 20 man is the smallest where this works. Some 10 man encounters in the past have required up to 3 tanks or normally 3 healers while learning, gearing and initial progression occurs.

3:3:9 = 15
4:4:12 = 20

Allowing for fringe cases where you could need 3-4 tanks for a large council fight or some other reason will give much greater flexibility than the 2:2:6 that we have in 10 mans if we follow the 1:1:3 ratio.


Only one raid size (15 or 20) will break up most 25 man guilds that we have today, and most 10 man players will simple stop raiding. Thats not a viable solution.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8140
Have bosses from 25man raids drop tokens that can be exchanged for 120 rep from a daily faction of your choice. In addition have the bosses drop 2-3 lesser coins per person in the raid. That would definitely make 25mans more lucrative.
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100 Draenei Paladin
11505
In the end there is only 1 solution, blizzard knows what it is and has talked about it in the past. The only solution is to have 1 Raid Size.


1 raid size is not a solution, it's the easy way out. And if they did do it, they'd almost definitely just do 10s, because it's an established that format which most raiders are doing now.

So assuming you want a format larger than 10 people, it does make sense to continue this discussion.
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90 Draenei Shaman
13110
I think Blizzard will either need to really give strong incentive to 25 man raiding or combine the two tiers into one. When I say give strong incentive, I mean steps like this:

1 - Make legendary weapons only available in 25 man. This reduces the possibility 20% of the population has legendary weapons and gives the guild an additional sense of accomplishment. A legendary in 10 man doesn't have the same impact as one earned in 25 man raiding.

2 - drop one higher level item from boss kills. For example, the basic 10 man tier drops a pair of ilvl489 pieces. The 25 man drops 6 ilvl489 pieces. Instead, make one of those 6 pieces an ilvl502 item. Straight reputation gains or gold is not sufficient reward.

OR

3 - Give players an additional out of combat items (like a pet, similar to lil Tarecgosa).

OR

Both 2 and 3. Anyway, 25 man is not incentivized properly. If 25 man raiding is to survive, the rewards need to be different.
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I think Blizzard will either need to really give strong incentive to 25 man raiding or combine the two tiers into one. When I say give strong incentive, I mean steps like this:

1 - Make legendary weapons only available in 25 man. This reduces the possibility 20% of the population has legendary weapons and gives the guild an additional sense of accomplishment. A legendary in 10 man doesn't have the same impact as one earned in 25 man raiding.

2 - drop one higher level item from boss kills. For example, the basic 10 man tier drops a pair of ilvl489 pieces. The 25 man drops 6 ilvl489 pieces. Instead, make one of those 6 pieces an ilvl502 item. Straight reputation gains or gold is not sufficient reward.

OR

3 - Give players an additional out of combat items (like a pet, similar to lil Tarecgosa).

OR

Both 2 and 3. Anyway, 25 man is not incentivized properly. If 25 man raiding is to survive, the rewards need to be different.


This will kill 10 man, and you know it, its unlikely any but 3 will happen.

Sacrificing 10m's on the altar of 25's is not a solution, its making the problem worse.
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93 Blood Elf Mage
15725
What about each 25 man boss giving an additional 10 vp beyond the 1k a week valor cap. This is not enough of a perk that 10 man guilds would need to do 25's to be competitive but would incentivise 25 mans over 10 mans.
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100 Human Paladin
14730
10mans have 1 epic per 5 people, while 25mans maintain this ratio with a bonus piece for being logistically more challenging (6 pcs in total).

This apparently is not enough for 25mans to stick around. The logistical challenge is too great for people who want to play & spend their free time.

Trying to go back to a WotLK way doesn't sound like a good idea. 10man heroic was always harder skill-wise than 25man normal. I ran a 25man guild with 10 of us running 10man hard modes periodically. Having loot being equal between the two felt wrong. I also felt forced to push my 10man in WotLK (Naxx) into a 25man (Ulduar & beyond) due to this huge gear inequality. Having the gear delta of 1 full tier is the wrong way.

    The idea of 1/2 lvl of pre-upgraded gear from 25mans is a good middle ground idea, but from both normal & heroic modes. To upgrade all 16 slots fully = 24 wks of valor capping, which means 10mans will most likely not have all pcs upgraded before next tier. In this scenario, 25mans will have a much better chance at this. This is small enough of a change to not cause widespread QQ & could be implemented mid expansion to help save 25mans.

    The second idea would be to implement a 6 ilvl delta between 10man & 25man. A full tier of 13 ilvls is a bad idea as mentioned before. This may be more difficult to initially implement as it would be a pretty big change mid-expansion. Heroic 10man would still be better than 25man normal, so the rewards would be justified.


My 2 cents.
Edited by Davenrothz on 11/19/2012 9:53 AM PST
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