How to reward 25 man raids for "effort"

90 Undead Monk
4710
11/19/2012 01:20 PMPosted by Helagoth
Therefore I think a VP increase in 25-man is the perfect logistical reward. It would save time every week not having to do 5-mans and LFR for VP, and time is valuable to everyone. Johnny Gladiator might use this extra time to do arenas or RBGs. Poor Richard might use the time to farm 300 stat food. Other players might just appreciate not having to play as many hours that week.


More points does not equal a real reward though. The amount of time to hit VP cap isn't that bad, and you're not providing a real reward to 25s except giving them more free time, which is something but not a bonus to character progression.

VP from 25man raiding are only a real reward if they don't count toward the cap.


That wouldn't be a logistical advantage or quality of life improvement. That would be a competitive advantage. That's not what is being talked about.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Shaman
13110
That wouldn't be a logistical advantage or quality of life improvement. That would be a competitive advantage. That's not what is being talked about.


Okay. It's a "competitive advantage". It's likely the only one 25 man raiding has over a 10 man. Would you like people to list out the competitive advantages 10 man raids have over 25 man?
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Warrior
14560
11/19/2012 03:36 PMPosted by Corpserun
That wouldn't be a logistical advantage or quality of life improvement. That would be a competitive advantage. That's not what is being talked about.


Okay. It's a "competitive advantage". It's likely the only one 25 man raiding has over a 10 man. Would you like people to list out the competitive advantages 10 man raids have over 25 man?

You mean the lack of loot?
Reply Quote
100 Gnome Monk
17295
11/19/2012 12:46 PMPosted by Xiic
Oh sorry, are we supposed to measure difficulty by your guild? The point is, hard content is very doable with people down in 25 man and it makes me giggle when people claim it isnt. Hell, premonition's extremely early heroic omnomtron kill was with 1 tank and maybe 8-10 people left for the last 2 minutes of the fight.


I just don't think you can make sweeping claims like this. Can you kill Shekzeer on 25 with someone dead? Definitely, as long as they aren't dead too long. It's a forgiving enrage timer. Make it two people and you're probably going to wipe. Omnotron didn't even have an enrage timer of any note which is why 25 man guilds brought like 10 healers to that boss for early kills. You could easily name a lot of 25 man bosses that you can't kill with anyone dead though, at least not for any significant part of the fight, and I'm not even talking about hard bosses. Try killing Ultraxion with someone dead for a while for example, or Yor'sahj, or Spine. Hell even Madness would have been difficult if they'd been dead for the final platform.

The way 10 mans can be more difficult is in the area of personal responsibility because you have fewer people in the raid and a single player dying or screwing up is a larger issue relatively speaking. The harder a fight is on 25 and the closer to something like Yogg/LK/Rag difficulty the less relevant this becomes because the fight starts to require close to perfect execution from every player to kill regardless of raid size. If everyone in the raid has to coordinate well and play almost perfectly, naturally it's going to be harder to pull off with more people in the raid. For the same reason, a random debuff going on a random player that wipes the raid if they don't do X or get healed for Y is harder in 25 man just because there's more targets.

When you drop the difficulty scaling a bit (ie on the majority of bosses) and you get some room to make errors in the 25 man format and still succeed, you create a situation where 10 man could potentially be harder.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Warrior
14560
11/19/2012 03:49 PMPosted by Gondlem
Oh sorry, are we supposed to measure difficulty by your guild? The point is, hard content is very doable with people down in 25 man and it makes me giggle when people claim it isnt. Hell, premonition's extremely early heroic omnomtron kill was with 1 tank and maybe 8-10 people left for the last 2 minutes of the fight.


I just don't think you can make sweeping claims like this. Can you kill Shekzeer on 25 with someone dead? Definitely, as long as they aren't dead too long. It's a forgiving enrage timer. Make it two people and you're probably going to wipe. Omnotron didn't even have an enrage timer of any note which is why 25 man guilds brought like 10 healers to that boss for early kills. You could easily name a lot of 25 man bosses that you can't kill with anyone dead though, at least not for any significant part of the fight, and I'm not even talking about hard bosses. Try killing Ultraxion with someone dead for a while for example, or Yor'sahj, or Spine. Hell even Madness would have been difficult if they'd been dead for the final platform.

The way 10 mans can be more difficult is in the area of personal responsibility because you have fewer people in the raid and a single player dying or screwing up is a larger issue relatively speaking. The harder a fight is on 25 and the closer to something like Yogg/LK/Rag difficulty the less relevant this becomes because the fight starts to require close to perfect execution from every player to kill regardless of raid size. If everyone in the raid has to coordinate well and play almost perfectly, naturally it's going to be harder to pull off with more people in the raid. For the same reason, a random debuff going on a random player that wipes the raid if they don't do X or get healed for Y is harder in 25 man just because there's more targets.

When you drop the difficulty scaling a bit (ie on the majority of bosses) and you get some room to make errors in the 25 man format and still succeed, you create a situation where 10 man could potentially be harder.


There's also the factor of picking 10 of the non-idiots from a 25 man group and going and clearing it on 10 man. Instantly seems easier because you've dropped some weight.

You're not going to have a group of 25 players all performing at the same level unless you're a top guild.
Reply Quote
100 Orc Death Knight
17925
The item upgrade thing they are introducing is probably the best incentive I think they can realistically give without causing too much fuss.

Have 25 man gear come half upgraded (4 iLvLs higher) and call it a day. 10 mans can get the same thing, but it will take more time.

You eliminate some need for VP for your 25 man roster quicker and you have an inherent advantage in iLvL (although slight enough for it to not matter a whole lot) for your organizational troubles.

I personally don't think they should change anything but if they want to do something this is probably the only logical thing I can think of.

Know whats going to happen? Probably nothing. Some very very hard core 10 mans might be able to muster people to get the 25 man version items so they can push for world firsts in the first couple weeks of content (all like what, two of them?), the rest of us aren't going to care. 25 mans are still going to bleed to death regardless of what happens.

It's not Blizzards fault either it's just a shifting attitude amongst a lot of raiders. Organization and logistics aren't fun for the majority of people, and unless you actually paid people.. I doubt many people are going to find a reason (no matter how good) to start forming 25 man guilds again. I know there's a lot of greed out there and a lot of people who play for items.. but when it comes down to it most of us are lazy. We want to play with our small cluster of friends, not worry about what I said above, and just do what we want to do.
Reply Quote
90 Orc Warrior
13520
11/19/2012 03:49 PMPosted by Gondlem
Oh sorry, are we supposed to measure difficulty by your guild? The point is, hard content is very doable with people down in 25 man and it makes me giggle when people claim it isnt. Hell, premonition's extremely early heroic omnomtron kill was with 1 tank and maybe 8-10 people left for the last 2 minutes of the fight.


I just don't think you can make sweeping claims like this. Can you kill Shekzeer on 25 with someone dead? Definitely, as long as they aren't dead too long. It's a forgiving enrage timer. Make it two people and you're probably going to wipe. Omnotron didn't even have an enrage timer of any note which is why 25 man guilds brought like 10 healers to that boss for early kills. You could easily name a lot of 25 man bosses that you can't kill with anyone dead though, at least not for any significant part of the fight, and I'm not even talking about hard bosses. Try killing Ultraxion with someone dead for a while for example, or Yor'sahj, or Spine. Hell even Madness would have been difficult if they'd been dead for the final platform.

The way 10 mans can be more difficult is in the area of personal responsibility because you have fewer people in the raid and a single player dying or screwing up is a larger issue relatively speaking. The harder a fight is on 25 and the closer to something like Yogg/LK/Rag difficulty the less relevant this becomes because the fight starts to require close to perfect execution from every player to kill regardless of raid size. If everyone in the raid has to coordinate well and play almost perfectly, naturally it's going to be harder to pull off with more people in the raid. For the same reason, a random debuff going on a random player that wipes the raid if they don't do X or get healed for Y is harder in 25 man just because there's more targets.

When you drop the difficulty scaling a bit (ie on the majority of bosses) and you get some room to make errors in the 25 man format and still succeed, you create a situation where 10 man could potentially be harder.


The bottom line is that bosses tuned to be dps checks are usually not doable with people dead on either raid size (I'm talking about difficult heroic modes here). Bosses that are tuned to be coordination checks are sometimes doable with less than a full raid. I just don't like people making sweeping claims about difficulty on any format.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
17755
This just shows that 25s cleared 10s for gear, in addition to the guilds that ran 10s exclusively. Not a mystery, in t9 guilds cleared all four available raid options for small upgrades. My current guild ran 10s in Wrath (we pugged 25s for giggles). Believe me, there were not many dedicated 10 man guilds in Wrath. There were a few "10 man strict" guilds that refused to run 25s for progression gear. By "a few" I mean, significantly less than 10 genuine guilds of this type. Recruiting for a 10 man in Wrath was significantly more difficult than recruiting for a 25 now, I can assure you. "Real" raiders didn't run 10 mans.

I'm sympathetic to the dilemma 25s face, but it is fair to point out that this argument is awful.


"you can subtract the number of guilds that did 25-man from the 10-man numbers to assume that any guild that did 25-man also did 10-man"

11341 Saurfang-25-H kills did not become 43607 Saurfang-10-H kills just from 25-mans doing 10-mans. At least 20,000 kills on 10-H came from 10-man exclusive raiders, and that's if you make the assumption that 25-man guilds somehow managed to register 2 kills on 10-man by using an "alt guild" as well (which isn't really the case).

Now, some of those 10-man people absolutely pugged 25-N Saurfang, but that's not really a bearing on their raid structure. You'd be hard pressed to make the argument that if they had a choice, they would have preferred farming 25N over doing their actual guild's 10H runs.
Edited by Slashlove on 11/19/2012 5:04 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Worgen Warrior
17090
I'm sure there were plenty of 25 normal mode guilds who had enough decent players to down 10 man heroics.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
17755
11/19/2012 07:05 PMPosted by Ganzar
I'm sure there were plenty of 25 normal mode guilds who had enough decent players to down 10 man heroics.


So are we entertaining the idea that they would move Back to recruiting more people than they current have and blitzing through 25N now after they've (presumably) settled in to become an actual 10-man guild that IS actually doing Heroic mode?

http://wa2.cdn.therock.net.nz/therock/AM/2012/6/22/20730/skeptical-3rd-world-kid-01.jpg

Cause that's what it would take to actually kill 10-man raiding.
Edited by Slashlove on 11/19/2012 8:02 PM PST
Reply Quote
100 Undead Priest
16980
11/19/2012 03:58 PMPosted by Schwert
You're not going to have a group of 25 players all performing at the same level unless you're a top guild.


This statement works perfectly for 10mans also.
Unless you are a top guild, there will always be players in your raid team that aren't as good as others.
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Mage
15515
The whole "decline" in 25s started because of shared raid lockout that blizzard decided was in wow's best interest. Sure 25s had the best loot but they are hard to manage. When they had separate lockouts you could do both and max out valor without doing heroics easily enough.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Warrior
14560
11/19/2012 09:44 PMPosted by Poena
You're not going to have a group of 25 players all performing at the same level unless you're a top guild.


This statement works perfectly for 10mans also.
Unless you are a top guild, there will always be players in your raid team that aren't as good as others.

It's much more noticeable however downgrading from a 25 man.
Reply Quote
90 Troll Shaman
10510
There's also the factor of picking 10 of the non-idiots from a 25 man group and going and clearing it on 10 man. Instantly seems easier because you've dropped some weight.

You're not going to have a group of 25 players all performing at the same level unless you're a top guild.


It's funny because the 15 "idiots" you left behind will then go and form a 10 man guild, and also make better progression than the 25 man guild. The 10 "elites" that broke off will generally have even better 10 man progression, and the 15 idiots left behind will have enough skill to get 2-3 bosses farther than the original 25 man.

That's really the main problem. An individual player will ALWAYS make more progress in a guild of his skill level (ie. not being carried or not carrying) in the 10 man format than a 25 man format.

Not sure how you can fix this, but having additional incentive (half upgraded gear sounds good, separate achievements/mount colors/armor coloring is even better), would do wonders.
Reply Quote
85 Orc Hunter
7950
Having 25 man bosses randomly drop between 1-3 tokens that could be used to upgrade a piece of gear without the valor cost, rather than each piece of 25 man loot being 1/2 upgraded, is another potential solution.
Reply Quote
90 Human Warrior
11020
11/19/2012 03:59 PMPosted by Gròmmash
It's not Blizzards fault either it's just a shifting attitude amongst a lot of raiders. Organization and logistics aren't fun for the majority of people, and unless you actually paid people.. I doubt many people are going to find a reason (no matter how good) to start forming 25 man guilds again. I know there's a lot of greed out there and a lot of people who play for items.. but when it comes down to it most of us are lazy. We want to play with our small cluster of friends, not worry about what I said above, and just do what we want to do.


Yes clearly we should endorse the philosophy of being a lazy as possible and avoid more organized cooperative gameplay in order to get the best loot in the game. That won't devalue the prestige of the items themselves at all.

/end sacrasm

Seriously when you consider that items are just numbers and pixels, the value they have is only what we as players bestow, them like most paper currency. When you make the best loot obtainable through lazy, less organized means, it becomes devalued.

I'm not saying that 10 mans don't have their place. They can be fun and I would never want to eliminate them from the game. Consider challenge modes for example. They are fun, difficult and only require 5 people. But they are hardly premier end game content and I would never want to see them as such.

The place of 10 man raiding has nothing to do with difficulty and everything to do attitude, atmosphere, cooperation and organization. In those areas 25 man is totally different.

Anyway I don't think it's true to say the attitude of the player base has shifted naturally. It's just that Blizzard has started catering to this type of attitude which has necessitated the shift for those still playing the game.
Edited by Faust on 11/20/2012 9:58 AM PST
Reply Quote
100 Human Priest
19495
I find it funny how Blizzard points out the main difficulty increase is on the *leaders* and everyone is talking about ways to make 25s better as a whole.

You need an incentive for raid leaders/guild masters to want to make 25s over 10s.

I *could* have made my guild a 25 man, but especially for our schedule (two days a week) I didn't see a real personal benefit (and 10s versus 25s are close enough in prestige for me). If Blizzard figured out a way to benefit the people leading 25s (and made it unexploitable, aka no rotating guild master/officer positions or something), that might help significantly. And, as others pointed out, 10 man has logistical difficulties of a different nature as well.

Most raiders don't care whether they're raiding 10 mans or 25 mans, or if they do it's generally a slight preference. But I guarantee the leaders care about how many cats they're herding.
Reply Quote
100 Human Rogue
11320
I find it funny how Blizzard points out the main difficulty increase is on the *leaders* and everyone is talking about ways to make 25s better as a whole.

You need an incentive for raid leaders/guild masters to want to make 25s over 10s.

I *could* have made my guild a 25 man, but especially for our schedule (two days a week) I didn't see a real personal benefit (and 10s versus 25s are close enough in prestige for me). If Blizzard figured out a way to benefit the people leading 25s (and made it unexploitable, aka no rotating guild master/officer positions or something), that might help significantly. And, as others pointed out, 10 man has logistical difficulties of a different nature as well.

Most raiders don't care whether they're raiding 10 mans or 25 mans, or if they do it's generally a slight preference. But I guarantee the leaders care about how many cats they're herding.


I agree the bulk of the extra work falls on the leadership but I do think rewarding the entire guild is fine because whats good for my guild is also good for me. It doesn't matter what size you lead, anyone who's been in a position of power before will confirm it is a very selfless job. If you want to be a successful guild there are always going to be 9/24 people who come first and no matter how much extra work you put in every decision has to be made for the greater good of the guild.

As far as rewarding 25 man leadership I think the biggest reward we could get is just some helpful quality of life changes. Allowing us to trial recruits before they transfer would be invaluable to our recruitment pool. Things like fixing the feasts to work the way they where originally intended (giving +300 main stat if you have 600 cooking) and bringing back guild cauldrons would also be immensely helpful. Anything outside of QoL issues though would do better as a guild wide perk and not just a reward for the GM/Officers. What's good for my guild is good for me.
Reply Quote
90 Orc Shaman
13550
11/20/2012 10:32 AMPosted by Balkoth
You need an incentive for raid leaders/guild masters to want to make 25s over 10s.


Ok, and where would you draw the line?

My guild's GM is also the raid leader. Then there's a few guys managing the bank (2-3) and then a few other officers, plus role officers (IE tanking/healing/agility/strength). How many of them get the benefits?

So, overall, that's what, 8-10 people that need that incentive? Could be more or less for other guilds depending on various criteria. Where do you draw that arbitrary line?
Edited by Hyjinx on 11/20/2012 1:50 PM PST
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]