Retribution Paladin concerns.

First of all, I think the healing nerf is completely justified, It's out of control, and everyone knows it. However, I would just like to point out that Retribution SELF-Healing is just awful as-is, as it costs too much for far too little effect.

Second of all. My concern with Retribution Damage is that it's far too bursty when cooldowns are up, and rather meh when they're down. I was hoping this would be addressed in MoP but the exact opposite happened. We are 2 minute mages now. When cooldowns are up, we're unstoppable offensively, but again, when they're down we don't provide the pressure to be viable in high-tier PvP.

The reason we're doing well right now is that we run the ultimate "Mario-Kart-Syndrome" comps where we cripple a member of the opposing team so quickly that it pretty much ends the fight. Everyone here knows that's neither balanced nor exciting PvP play. What I would like to see happen (And by no means is this a demand, merely a suggestion) is Avenging Wrath nerfed to 10% and instead have a critical strike bonus applied to it. Then, have our main rotation buffed by 10%. While on the subject, I think inquisition should apply to more of our abilities than it currently does.

I'm adding this paragraph in because I had a brain wave. Is there any chance that Seal of Justice applies the snare on every attack, not just melee attacks? Then remove Burden of Guilt. That tier doesn't seem like much of a "Choice" per se, because a snare is too easily dispelled to really matter and Retribution is always going to choose FoJ for arenas. Maybe take the idea behind the blinding light glyph and put it into the slot, only buffed. Then our choice would be between more damage or more control, instead of having your cake and eating it, but sacrificing a buttload of control with FoJ. My original idea before it became a snare seal, was to make SoJ's effect prevent a character from using instant teleportation abilities, like Blink, Charge, disengage or teleport. Seeing as none of those really have a counter, and Ret needed/still needs a melee control niche. Hell, if we had that, combined with Burden of Guilt as a talent, would actually make that tier more of a choice.

The reason we fall so far behind in damage is that our main finisher (Templar's Verdict) Is still completely physical and is thus reduced by both armor and resilience. Warriors and Death Knights don't have that problem because one has armor reducing abilities in their rotation, while the other does mostly spell damage. It makes our class even more dependent on PvP power than the other two plate wearers.

Lastly, about our self-healing. Right now, a Death Knight can completely eat my WoGs. While, in another situation that would be completely justified, I have to sacrifice a lot more than other classes to self-heal. A Death Knight has death strike and death siphon. A warrior has Second Wind and Victory Rush. All of these potentially do more healing whilst doing damage/cost nothing. Both Word of Glory and Flash of light stop our offense, and have a high cost. (I can only get off to FoLs before running out of mana, and WoG, well, WoG is WoG it eats our potential Templar's verdict, while doing a sad amount of healing. 40k or so, that's about a single attack negated.

I have a few ideas. Rename selfless healer, and make the bonuses count for self-healing too. -or- Redesign LoH to be a short cooldown heal. -or- Add a CD to Ret's WoG and buff it. You guys tried that before, but you added the CD, forgot to buff it. When we're under pressure we find ourselves using every single holy power point on WoG and I think that completely negates the offensive nature of Retribution, and even though It's comparing apples to oranges, I don't think that other specs should be able to put out just as much healing under pressure, while still being able to go offensive, whilst Retribution is completely shut down while trying to heal. Those are just my two cents on the subject.
Edited by Grekiel on 11/19/2012 12:51 PM PST
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1 Gnome Priest
0
Burden of Guilt, unless Wowhead has it wrong, is a physical snare.

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=110301

It seems most non-caster classes are having similar complaints: damage too low outside cooldowns, damage too high inside cooldowns.
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90 Human Paladin
14125
There's nothing wrong with Ret healing at all, except that it's very weak. The PvP power nerf will just make it weaker. They should either make an exception for melee based classes like Paladins, Monks, and Enhancement Shaman, or just buff Sword of Light.

Templar's Verdict does need a buff, as does Seal of Righteous. I wouldn't change much else, except maybe fix Sacred Shield to be the way it was before the nerf. The delay for the shield makes it a very poor choice.
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64 Worgen Hunter
8455
Burden of Guilt, unless Wowhead has it wrong, is a physical snare.

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=110301

It seems most non-caster classes are having similar complaints: damage too low outside cooldowns, damage too high inside cooldowns.


Hey, I like you. You're like me...but smarter.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
11010
Classes with great burst damage: My damage outside of CDs is too pathetic to be viable.
Classes with great sustained damage: I lack the burst to score kills when kills at opportune times

11/19/2012 12:26 PMPosted by Grekiel
I don't think that other specs should be able to put out just as much healing under pressure, while still being able to go offensive, whilst Retribution is completely shut down while trying to heal. Those are just my two cents on the subject.


Exactly which other specs are you referring to?

If TV is weak to begin with, how is being forced to use Holy Power on WoG "completely shut down?"
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Classes with great burst damage: My damage outside of CDs is too pathetic to be viable.
Classes with great sustained damage: I lack the burst to score kills when kills at opportune times

I don't think that other specs should be able to put out just as much healing under pressure, while still being able to go offensive, whilst Retribution is completely shut down while trying to heal. Those are just my two cents on the subject.


Exactly which other specs are you referring to?

If TV is weak to begin with, how is being forced to use Holy Power on WoG "completely shut down?"


Because not only is TV still our most powerful ability, but we're also not maximizing our damage output with our rotation, we find ourselves rushing to get HP to get a heal off one after another.

DKs, Rogues, HUNTERS and Warriors.
Edited by Grekiel on 11/20/2012 1:07 PM PST
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90 Human Paladin
10930
11/19/2012 05:30 PMPosted by Samarana
I don't think that other specs should be able to put out just as much healing under pressure, while still being able to go offensive, whilst Retribution is completely shut down while trying to heal. Those are just my two cents on the subject.


WoG is fine. It's instant and has no cooldown. Its drawback is that you sacrifice damage for it.

Hybrid casters have to cast, rendering them susceptible to interrupts.

Rejuvenation needs to be nerfed for boomkins.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13950
Ret Issues:
-healing is awful while costing a great deal of offensive potential
-damage outside cds is average at best
-Mastery double nerfed through Resil
-Lacking defensive abilities in pvp that don't kill our offense
-no great utility in pve, very generic buffs
-lacking interesting class/spec mechanics in general

Just stuff off the top of my head, a lot of this could be resolved through tweaks if they took the time.
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100 Troll Rogue
21855
11/21/2012 12:48 AMPosted by Tbolt
no great utility in pve, very generic buffs

Want to pull this out because this is just untrue. Devo Aura is a very potent raid CD, while Blizzard seemed to go a bit too heavily into the physical AoEs in HoF generally speaking raid wide magic damage has been one of the goto mechanics for quite some time now. Also tank external CDs like Sac tend to be very useful. I'll leave BoP off the list since it is a bit more situational but just Sac and Devo is a pretty strong utility toolkit.

Speaking more generally the concept of utility should really be separated from the concept of buffs. At this point raid buff coverage is mostly trivial with a couple odd exceptions (hi spell haste), important raid utility now comes from damage mitigation or damage increasing cds.
Edited by Fierydemise on 11/21/2012 1:01 AM PST
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11/20/2012 01:14 PMPosted by Sliphe
I don't think that other specs should be able to put out just as much healing under pressure, while still being able to go offensive, whilst Retribution is completely shut down while trying to heal. Those are just my two cents on the subject.


WoG is fine. It's instant and has no cooldown. Its drawback is that you sacrifice damage for it.

Hybrid casters have to cast, rendering them susceptible to interrupts.
Unless they're a SPriest and can get a long way on just Renew, PoM, and PW:S.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13950
Want to pull this out because this is just untrue. Devo Aura is a very potent raid CD, while Blizzard seemed to go a bit too heavily into the physical AoEs in HoF generally speaking raid wide magic damage has been one of the goto mechanics for quite some time now. Also tank external CDs like Sac tend to be very useful. I'll leave BoP off the list since it is a bit more situational but just Sac and Devo is a pretty strong utility toolkit.


Devo has been less than useful this tier precisely for that reason, so while you might argue that we may have good utility in the future, we don't have it now. BoS isn't really doing much either, I can't really think of a situation where it's needed like it was with impales on Madness. So compared to other toolkits that contain powerful offensive/defensive cooldown that are actually usable, I'd say we're lacking.

Speaking more generally the concept of utility should really be separated from the concept of buffs. At this point raid buff coverage is mostly trivial with a couple odd exceptions (hi spell haste), important raid utility now comes from damage mitigation or damage increasing cds.


Raid buff coverage is only trivial if you're raiding 25s.
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