Why do Mages and Locks not get hit from spi?

90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
Now I was here and understood the original goal of Spirit ==> Hit when it was patched in, but I still don't see why Mages and Warlocks still don't benefit from this. It would make for much less Int gear variations.

Lets break down the current types of Spirit gear.

Intellect w/ Spirit
- The Spirit benefits healers for MP5
- The Spirit benefits non-Mage/Warlock casters for Hit

Intellect w/o Spirit
- All casters and healers can use this gear, but healers won't be happy without Spirit, and casters won't be happy w/o Hit.

Intellect w/ Hit
- Healers will not benefit from the Hit at all
- Mages/Warlocks need these pieces for Hit, and other casters can use it, but they don't have to have Hit.

The first and third (Int w/ Spi and Int w/ Hit) become a problem when it comes to jewelry (Necklaces and Rings) as if a piece has Hit on it, it'd be more fair to give to Warlocks and Mages because we can't benefit from Spirit. At the same time, Healers will also want Spirit gear, so the hybrid casters do have two choices, while both Healers and Mages/Locks only have 1.

My proposed suggestion is to completely remove all specialization passives with the SPI to Hit thing, and just make Spirit = Spell Hit, in the same fashion that Expertise now gives Spell Hit (though that's more of a Spellcasting Melee thing)

This way, we'll have two pieces of gear:

Intellect w/ Spirit
- Everyone can benefit from this gear, even Mages and Warlocks, as Spirit now gives Hit and Mana Regen (MP5 to healers only).
- Mages and Warlocks no longer groan on cloth/jewelry with Spirit on it.

Intellect w/o Spirit
- Everyone can still benefit from this gear as they have been before.

In a similar fashion, think of Agility gear when it comes to Brewmasters and Guardians. All AGI gear has zero dodge or parry stats, so anything with AGI, whether jewelry or leather gear, benefits Rogues, Ferals, Windwalkers, Brewmasters, and Guardians. Looking at Mail, both Hunters and Enhancement Shamans use the same AGI gear, so why are only Mages and Warlocks not sharing the same INT gear with other casters?

This suggestion would be a win-win for Mages/Warlocks, and Healers alike, while not affecting non-Mage/Warlock casters at all. How?:
With the proposed suggestion, two things would happen. First, we'd have more Spirit gear because all Hit would turn into Spirit. Thus, rather than having three types of Intellect gear, we would now only have two (Int with Spirit and Int w/o Spirit). While this would slightly boost Druid, Monk, Shaman, and Paladin healers due to more Spirit jewelry, this change will MASSIVELY boost Priest healers for gearing choice as now all Cloth gear would now have Spirit, or not have Spirit, rather than Spirit, Not Spirit, or Hit.
Second, this boosts Mage and Warlock gear choices as now things with Spirit benefit them, too. In addition, Mages and Warlocks would have more variations for their gear. Being a Fire Mage, I find WAY too much Mastery on non-Spirit pieces, but I find tons of Crit pieces with Spirit on it. Rather than being completely stuck to my assortment of Haste Mastery (Worst in Slot) non-Spirit pieces, I could use Spirit Crit, Spirit Haste, and other variations. (Hell even Hit, or rather Spirit and Mastery isn't that bad).

The only downside I would see to this would be more gearing conflicts, but because all Int gear is now similar to Agi gear (and I don't see many problems with Agi gear atm), I don't think it'd be a big problem because there's be a huge influx of Spirit gear, just allowing more options and gear sharing.
Edited by Pewpewblast on 11/18/2012 1:52 PM PST
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90 Undead Warlock
6970
They've gone back and forth on this. I remember locks at one point valued +spi as much as priests did, and it did cause some conflict when it came time for gear rolls and DKP bidding.

And then at some point while I was away, they went back and decided that no, locks would value +int and +hit gear only, and compete with mages instead for DKP and rolls.

Who knows what the reasoning was and is. Who knows, probably in a few months they'll decide that +str gear should be valued by locks and add some passive that converts +str and +agi to spellpower.

It's all arbitrary, you know.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
9085
The reason hybrids do this is to make it easier to switch between specs without having to regear each slot.

Pure dps like mages and locks do not need this. When they respec they can reforge and while their gear might no longer be as optimal it is still at least competitive.

Its just to alleviate hybrid woes not increase their itemization. Thats just an after thought.
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90 Draenei Shaman
7730
11/18/2012 11:55 PMPosted by Kraddark
When they respec they can reforge and while their gear might no longer be as optimal it is still at least competitive.


A fire mage using Arcane mage gear, is just as bad as a shadow priest using discipline gear.

Actually, its worse, because of the spirit=hit conversion.

I can understand it for a class like shamans, there is exactly 1 class that wants mail/spirit and mail/int gear. And i can understand them wanting to be efficient and not make a completely full loot table of each.

But for locks/mages/priests... they HAVE to make full loot tables for int/spirit and int/dps... Should honestly either give spirit=hit to every clothie, or none.
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90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
11/18/2012 11:55 PMPosted by Kraddark
The reason hybrids do this is to make it easier to switch between specs without having to regear each slot.


Bullcrap. They did it to lessen the amount of sets of gear they'd have to make for non-cloth so they wouldn't be "Cloth +1".

11/18/2012 11:55 PMPosted by Kraddark
Its just to alleviate hybrid woes not increase their itemization. Thats just an after thought.


Both Leather and Mail have 3 stat allocations atm: Agi, Int w/ Spi and Int w/o Spi. They used to have a 4th with Int w/ Hit, and it was a bit too much.

If this was purely so they could switch between speccs, feel free to explain what a Brewmaster does to swap. How about a Resto/Boomkin Druid to go Feral/Guardian. No? What about Elemental/Resto Shamans that go Enhancement?

Yeah. Your point is moot.

11/19/2012 12:49 AMPosted by Jkspiritlink
When they respec they can reforge and while their gear might no longer be as optimal it is still at least competitive.


A fire mage using Arcane mage gear, is just as bad as a shadow priest using discipline gear.

Actually, its worse, because of the spirit=hit conversion.

I can understand it for a class like shamans, there is exactly 1 class that wants mail/spirit and mail/int gear. And i can understand them wanting to be efficient and not make a completely full loot table of each.

But for locks/mages/priests... they HAVE to make full loot tables for int/spirit and int/dps... Should honestly either give spirit=hit to every clothie, or none.


Exactly. Not only would they only have to create two cloth sets (Int w/ Spi and Int w/o Spi), giving more itemization choices to Mages, Locks, and even Priest (as all Hit now becomes Spi, giving a plethora of options for both sides), but even Jewelry (Necklaces and Rings) for ALL Int users increases in itemization, and decreases in amount of stat allocations (going from 3 Int modifications to 2 Int modifications). Also, they could make some interesting trinkets that they want for spell DPS, such as passive Spirit that proccs Intellect on damage. This could also become semi-useful for some healers (like Telluric Currents Shamans, Mistweaver Monks, Atonement Priests, etc).

Instead, they're sticking it primarily to Clothies due to this (with the exception of Shadow Priests as they use all 3 regardless), as well as healers due to Hit on Int jewelry.
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I favor a more radical solution. Just get rid of hit.
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90 Draenei Shaman
7730
When i raided on my mage i raided with my RL friend's shadow priest.

it was nothing but unfair that he had double the viable cloth loot drops that i did. Especially when we were doing Progression BWD. I remember the cloth helm with spirit that drops off ODS was one of his very first upgrades and i couldnt use it. cuz SPIRIT ISNT MAGE GEAR BUT EVERYTHING IS SHADOW GEAR.

consequently he geared up much smoother and faster. tote's not okay.
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90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
When i raided on my mage i raided with my RL friend's shadow priest.

it was nothing but unfair that he had double the viable cloth loot drops that i did. Especially when we were doing Progression BWD. I remember the cloth helm with spirit that drops off ODS was one of his very first upgrades and i couldnt use it. cuz SPIRIT ISNT MAGE GEAR BUT EVERYTHING IS SHADOW GEAR.

consequently he geared up much smoother and faster. tote's not okay.


This is what I get very angry with. Spirit isn't Mage gear, so shouldn't Hit not be Shadow/Hybrid caster gear? Of course not. NO ONE but Mages and Warlocks understand this philosophy. If a piece with Hit on it drops, it's available to EVERY caster. Spirit = EVERY caster/healer except Mages/Warlocks. Non-Spirit/Hit? All Int users.

Kinda unfair, don'tcha think?
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90 Draenei Shaman
7730
11/19/2012 01:11 AMPosted by Pewpewblast
don'tcha think?


yes sir, ive thought it for years.
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90 Human Warlock
17825
Fun fact... there is only one nonspirit caster ring (and it's unique equiped) and zero non spirit caster neclaces in Heart of Fear and Terrace of Spring. Which means Mages and Warlocks are perminately at an Ilv disadvantage compared to spirit users who can obtain 496 normal/506 heroic items to fill those slots.
Edited by Thanatosia on 11/19/2012 1:52 AM PST
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90 Troll Mage
15205
11/19/2012 01:52 AMPosted by Thanatosia
Mages and Warlocks are perminately at an Ilv disadvantage


Ilvl doesn't matter, for DS the neck from firelands was better and for agi wearers so was a cloak. The legendary was also better than the higher ilvl stuff. Ilvl doens't matter one bit.
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90 Pandaren Monk
4680
With loot council or gdkp ita fair for all specs. If your complaining about /roll for gear nothong would change. Most of shadow priest gear is spirit gear idk what your complaining about anyway ?
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90 Draenei Shaman
7730
11/19/2012 06:30 AMPosted by Hiroran
Ilvl doesn't matter, for DS the neck from firelands was better and for agi wearers so was a cloak. The legendary was also better than the higher ilvl stuff. Ilvl doens't matter one bit.


mmm no, the heroic neck from domo was only better if spirit was a waste of a stat, and only barely. if you could use spirit legitimately, the heroic DS neck with spirit was BiS by far.

the legendary was ... well... legendary.. it would have been ridiculous if we spent 7 months farming it to use it for 3 weeks.

Heroic DW dagger was better for AOE fights than DTR .
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90 Troll Mage
15205
11/19/2012 09:28 AMPosted by Jkspiritlink
mmm no, the heroic neck from domo was only better if spirit was a waste of a stat, and only barely. if you could use spirit legitimately, the heroic DS neck with spirit was BiS by far.


You just said I was correct though, the neck was bis in firelands for mages and warlocks.

There is a history of some specs/classes not being able to get the same ilvl as others and it shouldn't affect anything. If its preventing a class from competing then sure fix it, but its not hindering anything.

This goes back to the main point of the thread also, its not really hampering anything to not give locks/mages spirit gear, if they did that they would just have to shrink the amount of drops for cloth which would not benefit mages/locks but would only hinder priests. There is no benefit to it. If you are in a guild group it shouldn't be an issue, if you are in a pug then talk with the leader or the priest and see if you can work something out.
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90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
11/19/2012 09:38 AMPosted by Hiroran
If you are in a guild group it shouldn't be an issue,


So losing a Hit Crit cloak to a Boomkin isn't an issue, I guess when they can take healer cloaks. Oh wait, then healers would get pissed, unless there was no "Hit" stuff.

11/19/2012 01:52 AMPosted by Thanatosia
Fun fact... there is only one nonspirit caster ring (and it's unique equiped) and zero non spirit caster neclaces in Heart of Fear and Terrace of Spring. Which means Mages and Warlocks are perminately at an Ilv disadvantage compared to spirit users who can obtain 496 normal/506 heroic items to fill those slots.


Yup, and it's bull.

11/19/2012 09:38 AMPosted by Hiroran
There is a history of some specs/classes not being able to get the same ilvl as others and it shouldn't affect anything.


11/19/2012 09:38 AMPosted by Hiroran
but its not hindering anything.


Um... How is not getting higher gear not hindering anything?

Honestly, if you're progressing in heroics and you have ZERO options for gear except using a previous tier piece, then that's a huge issue. It becomes more of an issue when there are multiple pieces turning into that. Even moreso if they're itemized bad. Hell, I'm probably missing out on a couple thousand DPS because of the vast amount of Mastery I have due to my limited options because I can't use spirit gear, while hybrid casters can use Spirit, Hit, and neither, allowing them a much wider range of gear and easier itemization.

This is greatly hindering to me, especially if there isn't a specific slot I can't even fill without using poorly itemized stats.
Edited by Pewpewblast on 11/19/2012 11:02 AM PST
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90 Troll Mage
15205
11/19/2012 11:02 AMPosted by Pewpewblast
How is not getting higher gear not hindering anything?


Its not hindernig anything because mages and locks are doing quite well right now.

11/19/2012 11:02 AMPosted by Pewpewblast
So losing a Hit Crit cloak to a Boomkin isn't an issue, I guess when they can take healer cloaks. Oh wait, then healers would get pissed, unless there was no "Hit" stuff.


Its equally silly for healers to complain, a guild is supposed to work together and give the biggest upgrade to who can use it.
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90 Draenei Shaman
7730
11/19/2012 09:38 AMPosted by Hiroran
You just said I was correct though, the neck was bis in firelands for mages and warlocks.


correct, because the spirit neck had 300 stat value in spirit. It might as well have been 300stat value of resilience for all the good it did for us. Had it been 300 crit/mastery/or haste, heck, had it been 30 crit/mastery/haste it would have been BiS.

The heroic major domo neck, did not have 300 stats of nothing'ness for mages and locks. it had like 200 crit value? Of course something with 200 crit will be better dps gain than 300 of nothing.
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90 Troll Mage
15205
/sigh so much false information.

First its different than 300 resil, you can reforge out of spirit.
Second, it gave 120 of stat of your choosing that wasn't already on it, so it gave 180 spirit because of reforging.

And yet these situations aren't preventing mages and locks from doing well, so no need to fix it.
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90 Draenei Shaman
7730
First its different than 300 resil, you can reforge out of spirit.
Second, it gave 120 of stat of your choosing that wasn't already on it, so it gave 180 spirit because of reforging.


still pretty silly imo. there should be mage/lock equivalents at each ilvl.

11/19/2012 01:30 PMPosted by Hiroran
And yet these situations aren't preventing mages and locks from doing well, so no need to fix it.


silliness is silliness. If I was personally a dev, it would bug the crud out of me, the loot table i was potentially designing would have only felt partially done, and every time i saw some mage or lock not... suffer... but be inconvenienced by this "unfinished" loot table, i would feel a little bit guilty.
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90 Troll Hunter
14895
11/19/2012 12:49 AMPosted by Jkspiritlink
A fire mage using Arcane mage gear, is just as bad as a shadow priest using discipline gear.

Not true, without the Spirit->Hit conversion, a S.Priest using Discipline gear would have completed wasted stats (Spirit), as opposed to sub-optimal stats, but still beneficial.

And the main reason they don't do this, is cloaks, necks, trinkets and rings. The Spirit or Hit on those items makes it a Healer or non-Healer item only. Its to make it so not as many players are after the same item is all. For some pieces, Mages/Locks might have to compete with Hybrid casters, but Healers don't have to compete with Mages/Locks, and Mages/Locks don't have to compete with Healers (assuming Main Spec > Off Spec, which should be the case for any PUG or Raid Group...or at least something equivalent).

If your raid group is letting your healers off gear out there off spec before gearing out their casters' main spec, there is some leadership issues (outside of obvious reasons, i.e. that healer is the "floater" (specs DPS or heals based on fight), Loot rules like DKP, etc).

OP: I don't think they make +Spirit and +Hit items anymore, FYI - but I might be mistaken.
Edited by Verdash on 11/19/2012 2:06 PM PST
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