Please balance Flag Carriers

90 Tauren Druid
10365
I stopped playing WoW shortly before season 9 ended. I spent most of my time playing rbgs and doing arenas. I had a lot of fun, especially when I was carrying flags for my guild in rbgs. At the time, warriors were the standard choice for carrying flags, and blood dks were an acceptable choice if a warrior wasn't available. Even in this environment, I managed to get over 3300 rating carrying flags as a feral, and over 2400 carrying flags as a prot paladin. Ferals were rairly seen at high levels, and prot paladins literally did not exist as flag carriers on any level. It took a huge deal of effort, time, and resources just to attempt to make these classes competive. Then blizzard made changes, like taking away shifting roots/snares from ferals and breaking the double 2 piece resil bonus for hybrids, that hurt these already struggling specs. These changes were necessary for reasons that had nothing to do with carrying flags, however this resulted in dks and especially prot warriors becoming the only viable choices as fcs. Seeing that I could no longer do what I had worked so hard to be successful at and no indication that blizzard had any intention of looking at fc balance, I stopped playing. I came back a few weeks ago, leveled a monk to 90, got some gear, and was hoping to carry flags in rbgs. I assumed blizzard would have eventually addressed flag carrying balance, however I was shocked and very disappointed to find that things haven't changed at all. Warriors are still dominant. Blood dks are acceptable if a prot warrior isn't available. Monks, paladins, and to a lesser extent ferals are rare or nonexistant as flag carries. As best I can tell, there are a few reasons for this:

1. Avoidance is a terrible stat in pvp, and armor is very good. Parry and dodge do not work when getting hit from behind or against ranged attacks. Armor works no matter what direction you are attacked from and also works against physical attacks. Blood dks and warriors have very high armor to begin with, and when wearing pvp gear they have very little of their stats going towards avoidance, which is ideal.

2.When blood dks and warriors put on pvp gear, they lose dodge and parry but gain additional dps. When a monk or feral puts on pvp gear, they don't gain the same bonus. Monk and feral tanks are tuned around wearing dps gear. Putting on pvp gear does not result in a damage increase, but it does for warriors and dks because their dps is tuned around wearing avoidance tanking gear.

3. There are enormous differences between the various classes tanking classes when it comes to mobility. Ferals and warriors have fantastic mobility. Paladins have almost none. Also, keep in mind that mobility talents that aren't affected by stacking debuff that removes the ability to benefit from anything that increases your speed are significantly more valuable than those that are affected by it. For example: Once the debuff is up, Monk's roll or chi torpedo ability essentially makes you do a stationary barrel roll for 2 seconds instead of actually moving anywhere; All that bonus move speed that a feral has is gone; Dash and Tiger's lust don't give you any increase in move speed. Guess what works just fine though regardless of the debuff: Heroic leap, charge, and intercept.

4. Shockwave. There really is no cc ability that comes close to having the value that shockwave does for flag carrier. The other tanks all have reasonable cc abilities. Warriors have shockwave.

5. Viability of the dps offspec. Over half the maps do not involve carryings flags. Ww monks, ret paladins, and ferals are all fine at dpsing, but frost dks and warriors are generally more desirable. Having a superior tank spec AND a superior dps spec for rbgs just makes the choice that much easier when deciding what to bring.

I would really appreciate if blizzard would review and work on balancing the different flag carrying specs to try and make them all viable. This benefits not only the classes that currently aren't able to carry flags, but all the people who want to run rbgs. If all five specs are playable, you increase the amount of flag carriers available by 150%. That should make it a lot easier for people to make groups at all levels of play.
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100 Draenei Warrior
14180
Did I stumble into the pvp forum? <_< >_>
-----
Combat tables, diminishing returns and you!
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2489160859
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90 Pandaren Warrior
15860
1. Avoidance is a terrible stat in pvp, and armor is very good. Parry and dodge do not work when getting hit from behind or against ranged attacks. Armor works no matter what direction you are attacked from and also works against physical attacks. Blood dks and warriors have very high armor to begin with, and when wearing pvp gear they have very little of their stats going towards avoidance, which is ideal.

2.When blood dks and warriors put on pvp gear, they lose dodge and parry but gain additional dps. When a monk or feral puts on pvp gear, they don't gain the same bonus. Monk and feral tanks are tuned around wearing dps gear. Putting on pvp gear does not result in a damage increase, but it does for warriors and dks because their dps is tuned around wearing avoidance tanking gear.


These are both completely irrelevant.
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90 Tauren Druid
10365
Point #1 is very relevant for monks. They have around half the armor that the other classes have. Warriors, dks, ferals, and paladins seem to be around 29-33k armor. Brewmasters are sitting at around 16-17k armor. That's a serious difference.

As for point #2, there have been times when blood dks, prot paladins, and prot warriors have been played in arenas. Especially before vengeance was introduced, they could do competive damage. Bear form druids and Brewmaster monks, as far as I know, have never been played. In large part, this is because putting on pvp gear is like swapping to dps gear for a plate tank, while it's simply putting on gear that has the same itemization as your normal tank gear with the addition of resil for druids and monks. To further prove this point, you could literally tank in full pvp gear as feral with the only penalty being that resil was a wasted stat. Tanking pve content in pvp gear for a warrior/dk/paladin would not only hurt because resil is wasted, it would be like trying to tank in dps gear. Vengeance made it a lot harder to play prot in arena, however vengeance can get pretty high when you're a flag carrier. Plate classes have their dps scale far better with pvp gear than leather classes do.

As far as mobility goes, movement speed increasing abilities are not all that great. Helpful for getting to and back with the flag, sure. As soon as the debuff kicks in, they're gone. Roll doesn't work when you get the debuff stacked, neither do the paladins and druid talents that increase move speed. Heroic leap, charge, and intercept do.

You can theorycraft all you want, the bottom line is that warriors are currently and have been the choice for carrying flags with dks coming in second, and the rest of the classes seeing almost no use. If you think you can explain it better than I can, please do. If you have solutions, please post them. My only intention is that all 5 tanking specs become viable flag carriers instead of just 1 or 2.
Edited by Teslabeam on 11/19/2012 5:26 PM PST
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39 Worgen Warlock
0
We don't care.
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90 Tauren Druid
10365
I checked the forum sticky, this is the forum for all tank related issues, not just pve tanking. Blizzard has stated that they intended for tank specs to fill the role as flag carriers. I think this is the most relevant forum to be posting in.
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90 Pandaren Warrior
15860
Prot specs haven't done real damage for a long time. Blood DKs are an outlier.

And the brewmaster thing I would attribute more to the fact they've only been out for a couple months.

Also I don't think you realize vengeance hasnt worked in pvp for over a year
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90 Tauren Druid
10365
Prot specs haven't done real damage for a long time. Blood DKs are an outlier.And the brewmaster thing I would attribute more to the fact they've only been out for a couple months.Also I don't think you realize vengeance hasnt worked in pvp for over a year


That's good to know, I'm still not as up to date as I should be since I only recently came back. Unless my server is an anomaly though, prot warriors and dks being the only choice for carrying flags hasn't changed.
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Agreed. Tanks other than Warriors need buffs to fulfill our PVP roles.
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39 Worgen Warlock
0
11/19/2012 05:29 PMPosted by Rijdot
We don't care.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
5525
I care
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90 Blood Elf Warrior
4850
Please balance PvP.

No really, I get your problem but PvP is just unbalanced at all angles.
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90 Orc Death Knight
8960
11/20/2012 03:20 PMPosted by Rijdot
We don't care.


This was necessary and constructive.
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90 Blood Elf Warrior
4850
Hey now I actually really like Black Ops II =(
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90 Orc Death Knight
8960
DESIGNED FOR EXACTLY THAT!!!


What do you call the last eight years?

11/20/2012 05:56 PMPosted by Feanorion
or should exist in its own area, with its own rules.


Which it does.
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90 Blood Elf Warrior
4850
Besides that colossus smash sucks 50% more and some CC is gimped, what rules does PVP have?
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39 Worgen Warlock
0
11/20/2012 05:43 PMPosted by Foiblesqt


This was necessary and constructive.


I'm curious as to what you believe my answer to this will be.
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90 Orc Death Knight
8960


This was necessary and constructive.


I'm curious as to what you believe my answer to this will be.


That you obviously care enough to click on the post, and type out that you don't care.
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